honeymoon with the WHOLE family?

[Veiled Princess 1]

Honey, I read pages and pages of posts before I said one thing about your fake marriage; I simply followed commentary about your illogic that had been posted by others. You cannot deny that I was not the first to ask you why what you did was dissimilar to what you were condemning others for.

I don't have a problem with anyone questioning my logic or my opinion on any issue... what I have a problem with is a hateful bych who has nothing better to do than personally attack me during this discussion.. and in any other topic where this discussion comes up.

It's one thing to say that my logic is flawed or offer your own opinion about the issue at hand... it's quite another when you take it to the extremes of making claims that my marriage is not halal or accusing me of fornication personally and by name!

You have attacked me personally since you first joined this board... all because you equate me with Saudi since I read and mostly agree with the salafi scholars (who are not even all Saudi BTW) opinions and explainations on Islamic matters... You are venomous towards the salafi scholars and are dead set on attacking me and dishonoring me in public because of this.

I'm sorry I called your children bastards... I overstepped bounds there but you started it.

[jpaula 20]

Ipaula, you are correct that the concept of liberty is a complex one, and that I'm more knowledgable about it than my statements let on. However, do you think that a complex analysis is appropriate or even useful here?

I think a complex analysis is much more useful than a misleadingly simplistic one that makes a complex issue appear cut and dry and, conveniently, supports your own beliefs. Nor do you seem averse to going into great detail on many issues. And, I am genuinely curious, not to do battle, but to better understand, the religious roots of liberty. I am a bit rusty these days, but I have studied the philosophical ones extensively and they are not lining up with your explanation. But you are right that this may not be the place. I do wish it were possible to have discussions rather than shouting matches here because I think we get to some genuinely interesting and important issues.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I don't have a problem with anyone questioning my logic or my opinion on any issue... what I have a problem with is a hateful bych who has nothing better to do than personally attack me during this discussion.. and in any other topic where this discussion comes up.

Actually, I only bring it up when you do. And I try not to attack you so much as correct you.

It's one thing to say that my logic is flawed or offer your own opinion about the issue at hand... it's quite another when you take it to the extremes of making claims that my marriage is not halal or accusing me of fornication personally and by name!

Why do you keep insisting that you are married when you have nothing to show for it? I personally am not so much interested in what you do, but how you proclaim it, then expect no one to challenge you on it. Why do you think it's ok for you to say your "marriage" is halal, but no one can say it's not?

You say my marriage wasn't halal, but I don't whine about that like you do when I question yours. I have the commitment of my convictions. You, on the other hand, try to make like a victim and turn people against me, and you have succeeded in doing so. You make a great victim, but that is all you have succeeded in doing, and it still doesn't make you married, it just makes me seem like the bad guy, but I can take it.

You have attacked me personally since you first joined this board... all because you equate me with Saudi since I read and mostly agree with the salafi scholars (who are not even all Saudi BTW) opinions and explainations on Islamic matters... You are venomous towards the salafi scholars and are dead set on attacking me and dishonoring me in public because of this.

Well, that's not true, but it is true that you are a sectarian, and that narrows your acceptance of doctrine to those of your sect making it convenient for you to avoid consideration of views outside of your sect. That leaves you open to say that if your sect doesn't believe something, then it is not Islam, and that is certainly not true.

I'm sorry I called your children bastards... I overstepped bounds there but you started it.

No matter, I have reported you for name-calling in this post too.

I think a complex analysis is much more useful than a misleadingly simplistic one that makes a complex issue appear cut and dry and, conveniently, supports your own beliefs. Nor do you seem averse to going into great detail on many issues. And, I am genuinely curious, not to do battle, but to better understand, the religious roots of liberty. I am a bit rusty these days, but I have studied the philosophical ones extensively and they are not lining up with your explanation. But you are right that this may not be the place. I do wish it were possible to have discussions rather than shouting matches here because I think we get to some genuinely interesting and important issues.

Ipaula, I am delighted with your spirit of intellect, for I have that same spirit and love to indulge it! As you have observed, I have tried complex analysis of other issues, and it simply doesn't work here. There may be a few who appreciate it, but cross-talking and differing levels of comprehension do not make for substantive discourse. I am always willing to encourage those who wish to check out the facts for themselves, because, for some here, facts just get in the way. I agree with you that everything dissolves into a shouting match. IMO, it is because we are unevenly matched.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

Actually, I only bring it up when you do. And I try not to attack you so much as correct you.

You're not 'correcting' me when you're talking about me instead of to me.

Why do you keep insisting that you are married when you have nothing to show for it? I personally am not so much interested in what you do, but how you proclaim it, then expect no one to challenge you on it. Why do you think it's ok for you to say your "marriage" is halal, but no one can say it's not?

I have a marriage contract to show for it. You have offered no proof for claiming it haraam.

You say my marriage wasn't halal, but I don't whine about that like you do when I question yours. I have the commitment of my convictions. You, on the other hand, try to make like a victim and turn people against me, and you have succeeded in doing so. You make a great victim, but that is all you have succeeded in doing, and it still doesn't make you married, it just makes me seem like the bad guy, but I can take it.

I don't care about your marriage... I only bring it up when you start attacking me. Nothing you have said has made me not married.

Well, that's not true, but it is true that you are a sectarian, and that narrows your acceptance of doctrine to those of your sect making it convenient for you to avoid consideration of views outside of your sect. That leaves you open to say that if your sect doesn't believe something, then it is not Islam, and that is certainly not true.

This just goes to show that you don't know anything about me or the scholars that I read. I do not believe in sects. Shee'an and hizb are haraam.

No matter, I have reported you for name-calling in this post too.

Great! When you stop I'll stop

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You're not 'correcting' me when you're talking about me instead of to me.

If believing you are married is good enough, believing I'm correcting you is good enough.

I have a marriage contract to show for it. You have offered no proof for claiming it haraam.

You have a paper that confers no protection, no recourse other than what is in your own mind, or you would be able to file a K3 or CR1.

I don't care about your marriage... I only bring it up when you start attacking me. Nothing you have said has made me not married.

I speak what is out of concern for others, not what makes you feel good about yourself. If you had never met me, if no one had ever heard a word about your relationship, you would still not be married. This is not about what I said, it is about what you did, and you will not go unopposed spreading it as doctrine here.

This just goes to show that you don't know anything about me or the scholars that I read. I do not believe in sects. Shee'an and hizb are haraam.

Then why do you belong to the Salafi sect?

Great! When you stop I'll stop

You didn't wait for me to start. I haven't used one name against you.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

You have a paper that confers no protection, no recourse other than what is in your own mind, or you would be able to file a K3 or CR1.

1. if I don't feel the paper that the state gives me offers me any protection am I still required to get it?

2. You're still preaching religion to me based off the laws of a godless govt.... I take my religious rulings from the Quran and Sunnah not the laws of men. I've never stated that I would not get a marriage license here nor have I advised anyone else not to get one... I've just stated my opinion that not having one does not make ones marriage haraam.

I speak what is out of concern for others, not what makes you feel good about yourself. If you had never met me, if no one had ever heard a word about your relationship, you would still not be married. This is not about what I said, it is about what you did, and you will not go unopposed spreading it as doctrine here.

The statement you made below... and have made about me on many previous occasions... are not about concern for anything or anyone other than dishonoring me and bringing praise to yourself.

Then why do you belong to the Salafi sect?

I don't... I am a muslim who follows the Quran and Sunnah based on the understanding of the salaf/sahaba with the proofs...

You didn't wait for me to start. I haven't used one name against you.

Desite Layla's beliefs, she is not married

When you make this statement... not to me but about me to the rest of the board... you are calling me a fornicatress... just because you didn't use the word doesn't excuse you... so you did start this.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

When you make this statement... not to me but about me to the rest of the board... you are calling me a fornicatress... just because you didn't use the word doesn't excuse you... so you did start this.

Layla, get real. People have been telling you that they don't buy your claims since before I got here. I just don't sugarcoat it like a lot of folks do. It's not an insult, it's simply the no holds barred, plain and simple truth. You started it when you tried to sell a paper marriage as the real deal. Practice what you preach and you won't have these kinds of problems, sis, and there would be no debating between reality and wishful thinking. Stop trying to throw the blame on someone else, and take responsibility for your own TMI.

[Veiled Princess 1]

When you make this statement... not to me but about me to the rest of the board... you are calling me a fornicatress... just because you didn't use the word doesn't excuse you... so you did start this.

Layla, get real. People have been telling you that they don't buy your claims since before I got here. I just don't sugarcoat it like a lot of folks do. It's not an insult, it's simply the no holds barred, plain and simple truth. You started it when you tried to sell a paper marriage as the real deal. Practice what you preach and you won't have these kinds of problems, sis, and there would be no debating between reality and wishful thinking. Stop trying to throw the blame on someone else, and take responsibility for your own TMI.

I don't "preach" anything... Nothing I post is about teaching anything.. you are the only one who calls yourself 'preaching' or 'teaching' anything. The rest of us just have discussions/debates.

Furthermore, this statement doesn't really apply to me because I have never stated that I believe you have to have a marriage license from any govt to have a halal marriage... so how exactly am I not 'practicing what I preach'??

Anyone here is free to disagree with my beliefs... I don't take issue with that. However, none of the ones who don't agree with my beliefs have called me, or any of the other ladies here who have had the same marriage as me, names or judged us based on their personal beliefs. You are correct, you are the only one who does that.

It's your truth... not mine. You have not shown any proof from the Quran or Sunnah to support your claims. I have called you on this many times. Yet this doesn't stop you from stating what is or is not allowed in Islam.

You have also not been able to provide any scholarly sources to support your claim that any such marriage is haraam or not halal.

At least Bosco went out and searched about it and found that there are plenty of scholars who would call it inadvisable but even they (the ones who are qualified to actually issue fatawa) do not declare it haraam or less than halal... just inadvisable. (BTW, I have never disagreed that it is not the most preferable of choices to make.. but that doesn't make it haraam.)

Edited October 14, 2006 by Veiled Princess

[Henia 11]

The reason why you are such an ardent defender of Layla's is perhaps because you see yourself in what I have said about her contradictions and illogic. In that case, TMI should be what it the basis of posting if you want no one to comment on it.

No I actually donnot feel or have the same or even similar situation as Layla... I am married legally, not applying for any visas and living with my husband...so you see we are not the same. I also I donnot make habit to myself into other's shoes... but I do support a sister when someone seems to be attacking her.

[sophyie 0]

I know it's none of my business, but still, this is a public forum after all...

So here's my 2 cents.

first, I loved this thread. Remember? It used to be about honeymoons and families... I loved it because it gave me a little bit of an insight in a life and culture I know next to nothing about.

then, I thought it was kind of funny (premarital sex or not?).

now, I just find it sad. (and still can't stop reading )

Why can't you just agree on disagreeing? As long as both of you are happy with the marriages you live- where's the point? You won't convince one another of what's "right" or "wrong" anyway.

[Together4ever 1]

Yep. Better to worry about the junk in your own trunk then sticking your nose in someone else's.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Furthermore, this statement doesn't really apply to me because I have never stated that I believe you have to have a marriage license from any govt to have a halal marriage... so how exactly am I not 'practicing what I preach'??

You brought yourself to the attention of others once again by hypocritically condemning those who have unmarried sex when you cannot bring yourself to admit that you have done the same. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Furthermore, this statement doesn't really apply to me because I have never stated that I believe you have to have a marriage license from any govt to have a halal marriage... so how exactly am I not 'practicing what I preach'??

Your belief does not constitute fact, nor is it a belief that others are compelled to honor. I hold that when you have no protection, no recourse and do not follow the laws of the land which require you to register to be married, laws which you concede you will follow EVENTUALLY, then you ar enot married by faith or by decree.

If you do not believe that one needs the state to be married, you are going against the tide of history and the divone law. But, no one can tell you that because you are smarter than God.

Anyone here is free to disagree with my beliefs... I don't take issue with that. However, none of the ones who don't agree with my beliefs have called me, or any of the other ladies here who have had the same marriage as me, names or judged us based on their personal beliefs. You are correct, you are the only one who does that.

I haven't called you name, you call yourself names. I simply say that you are not married because you are not, and that I oppose you constantly presenting your deviant views are compatible with Islam.

It's your truth... not mine. You have not shown any proof from the Quran or Sunnah to support your claims. I have called you on this many times. Yet this doesn't stop you from stating what is or is not allowed in Islam.

Yes, I have, but you continue to want to present the ceremony as the marriage, although there is nothing behind your paper that makes it enforcable, a breach of marriage law.

You have also not been able to provide any scholarly sources to support your claim that any such marriage is haraam or not halal.

Yes, I have, but you reject non-Salafi scholars, and whan I have presented evidence from non-Salafi scholars, you reject it out of hand. That narrow window you allow yourself for debate is the only way you have to keep arguing that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

At least Bosco went out and searched about it and found that there are plenty of scholars who would call it inadvisable but even they (the ones who are qualified to actually issue fatawa) do not declare it haraam or less than halal... just inadvisable. (BTW, I have never disagreed that it is not the most preferable of choices to make.. but that doesn't make it haraam.)

It is convenient for you to "forget", but I presented much of the evidence that Bosco commented on, and she found some as well. The basis for their determination that it is inadvisable is what I have already said, that you have no protections, no means of enforcement, no access to shura, no way to divorce, no way to stop him from substututing you for a real wife. You have no rights, and that is not allowable in Islam.

If this is something a Muslim would advise someone to do it would be halal. If you cannot advise it, and you say you cannot, it is not halal. That is the bottom line.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Why can't you just agree on disagreeing? As long as both of you are happy with the marriages you live- where's the point? You won't convince one another of what's "right" or "wrong" anyway.

I do agree that I disagree with her

I'm really not trying to convince anyone of anything or sway anyone's opinions... what I am doing is defending myself and my honor against the attacks and insults this particular user insists on throwing at me personally.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

No I actually donnot feel or have the same or even similar situation as Layla... I am married legally, not applying for any visas and living with my husband...so you see we are not the same. I also I donnot make habit to myself into other's shoes... but I do support a sister when someone seems to be attacking her.

Then, why have you not taken up for me when I am attacked?

Yep. Better to worry about the junk in your own trunk then sticking your nose in someone else's.

Keep your trunk shut if you don't want a nose in it.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

You brought yourself to the attention of others once again by hypocritically condemning those who have unmarried sex when you cannot bring yourself to admit that you have done the same. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

First of all.. I have never claimed to have ever had sex with my husband... if I have or if I have not is something I would not and have not discussed with anyone. This is something you have assumed.

If someone who has made a commitment with another to each other (no matter what religion) has sex with their spouse it is far from someone who openly engages in sex outside of any type of commitment, IMHO and that's precisely what I stated in this thread... Please show me the proof that I have engaged in unmarried sex since you accuse me of it in public??

Your belief does not constitute fact, nor is it a belief that others are compelled to honor. I hold that when you have no protection, no recourse and do not follow the laws of the land which require you to register to be married, laws which you concede you will follow EVENTUALLY, then you ar enot married by faith or by decree.

The same to you. Also, it is not illegal to not register your marriage here, so I have violated no law.

If you do not believe that one needs the state to be married, you are going against the tide of history and the divone law. But, no one can tell you that because you are smarter than God.

You have shown no proof in the divine law that registration with the govt has ever been a requirement.. I have, in the past however, shown proof that the prophet (sal allahu alayhi wa salaam) did not know that some of his sahaba (or at least one) had even gotten married... when he was informed (only after asking) of it, he did not declare this marriage to be haraam because he didn't have knowledge of it.... this is proof that he (the muslim ruler at the time) did not even have to have knowledge of the marriage, much less have some registration, to consider this marriage valid.

I haven't called you name, you call yourself names. I simply say that you are not married because you are not, and that I oppose you constantly presenting your deviant views are compatible with Islam.

You make assumptions and accusations about me. My views are not the ones that seek to change the religion to agree with modern laws of non-muslims

Yes, I have, but you continue to want to present the ceremony as the marriage, although there is nothing behind your paper that makes it enforcable, a breach of marriage law.

There is nothing enforcing the state issued paper I had in the past either... what's the difference??

Yes, I have, but you reject non-Salafi scholars, and whan I have presented evidence from non-Salafi scholars, you reject it out of hand. That narrow window you allow yourself for debate is the only way you have to keep arguing that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

If there has been any post from a scholar or quoting any scholar (aside from yourself) declaring an Islamic marriage only to be haraam I have missed it. I do not automatically reject anything from any scholar because of what methodolgy he/she calls himself/herself following. I do reject statements made without any proof.

It is convenient for you to "forget", but I presented much of the evidence that Bosco commented on, and she found some as well. The basis for their determination that it is inadvisable is what I have already said, that you have no protections, no means of enforcement, no access to shura, no way to divorce, no way to stop him from substututing you for a real wife. You have no rights, and that is not allowable in Islam.

Well then it is the laws of this country that prevent my Islamic rights then and the paper they will give me when my husband is here will not protect me or offer me any rights that I have been given in Islam... they will offer me rights that the people of this country have voted on... those rights will not necessarily be protected because there are so many loopholes in these man made laws.. they will just be offered. I have a contract that should be enforcable in any court just like any other contract.

If this is something a Muslim would advise someone to do it would be halal. If you cannot advise it, and you say you cannot, it is not halal. That is the bottom line.

I actually did not say I can't advise it... just that I have not... because I don't give religious advise... There are scholars who I trust, however, who have said that a marriage does not have to be registered with any govt to be valid.