honeymoon with the WHOLE family?

[jpaula 20]

Ok, I have read all the way from page 14 to here and I honestly wonder what some folks are reading.

There is no doubt that Liz insulted people who don't believe in sex before marriage as not thinking for themselves.

Opening your legs to men to test how they treat you after is not feminism. It is confusion.

Desite Layla's beliefs, she is not married, for you can't just go around pretending to be married because you feel like you are and it is your opinion that you are. Islam doesn't sanction this due to the lack of protection for the parties. Marriage in Islam is not a sacrement, it is a covenent between you, God and society, and if you avoid completing the covenent, you have avoided marriage.

Liberty, in this secular society, is a concept grounded in religion. The founding fathers believed that God granted certain freedoms that were inalienable and not to be interfered with by government. There is no way that one can equate premarital sex with liberty since it is commanded against by the Abrahamic faiths upon which the US was founded, thus, would not be a freedom granted by God. That is why premarital sex was illegal for some time in this country, and still is in some forms.

Doodlebug, I didn't start this topic and didn't keep it going all day, so I reject your contention that I am responsible for the turn of subject. I made an observation that the topic had already gone off course, I didn't claim it then, and I don't now.

This is an incredibly simplistic declaration (rather than explanation) of what liberty is. It is a political concept tied, in much more complex ways, to the ideas of sovereignty and the social contract. The concept of liberty comes out of the Enlightenment, from the likes of Mill, Locke and Hobbes, not from the religious books. Our political liberties are not God given, but state-given. And, while there is much nuance to the definition, in its simplist form it requires that people be protected from tyranny, be that the tyranny of government or of others' morality. Mills, who introduced the concept of liberty in political philosophy, places a lot of stress and spends much time arguing that one cannot be bound by the morality of others. Liberty demands that there be a limit on what the government can legislate by creating areas of privacy. Mills did this with his harm principle and others (forgetting--been a few years since I read all of this stuff) with the distinction between self-effecting and others-effecting action--calling for laws against only the latter. Under any definition of liberty, the default is to not regulate. One should be free of authority UNLESS our actions harm others. It is not a moral code, not a religious code, but a political one that limits the reach of government. Consensual sex is not equated with liberty, but it is allowed under a system governed by liberty.

Books have been written on this for over a century, words far more eloquent and coherent than mine. But, szsz, you are too smart to really dismiss a long and rigorous philosophical history. I suspect you know much more than your post lets on.

[Henia 11]

Desite Layla's beliefs, she is not married, for you can't just go around pretending to be married because you feel like you are and it is your opinion that you are. Islam doesn't sanction this due to the lack of protection for the parties. Marriage in Islam is not a sacrement, it is a covenent between you, God and society, and if you avoid completing the covenent, you have avoided marriage.

I am not going to get into it with you Szsz but your statement about Layla's marriage was rather harsh and uncalled for. I believe since you were not there at the time of her marriage or there at anytime of her relation with her *husband* you cannot say for what has happened ...

I am donnot know you nor do I care to know but I find it very sad that usually come to any thread trying to make others look awfully fallacious. Astagfurullah. Also we can reminise about a time in the no so distant past where you also called my marriage false and unislamic. For that I would really like to thank you...it meant quite alot to me.

This part of my peice is directly to everyone, including myself... oke Szsz so donnot try to pick it apart.

This thread has started, as many before it as one *happy* topic then dramicatically changed into another not so happy topic... of course thread and conversation change... but somehow I am distrubed that on VJ many times good topics has to be corrupted and turned into something treacherous. I think on my own humble opinion we should all try to see the best in people and situation, stop picking apart people, stop be so heinous to each other.We are all, at least for me sisters (and brothers hihihi) going through basically the same thing... so let us just get along!

Also I donnot really care what comments are made after this post or what names I will be called here on the forum or in PM. You wil get no reaction from me, no rise and no satisfaction...sorry! So it would be better you save it, and ponder *things*...

Peace and Blessings be upon you and all others here!

[Together4ever 1]

I hope the following is not miscontrued. It has no implications to anyone in particular. That's not the intention behind posting it. This little story has a moral to it that touches me in its simplicity and I just wanted to insert it in the spirit of sharing it with others in case they are touched by it in a positive light as I was. I know personally I need a little reminder now and then that my own choices and actions belong to no one but myself.

A little parable...

A young man was walking down a dusty road. Another man, much larger then himself approached from the other direction. They were alone on the road and the large man met the young man's eyes with daggers. He knocked the young man to the dust.

Getting up and brushing the road dirt off, the young man asked, "Why did you do this to me? I did nothing to you."

The bigger man laughed a bitter laugh and replied, "I felt like it."

The young man felt confused and a little afraid.

Two angels appeared on the road and stood beside the young man. The large man's demeanor suggested he didn't see them.

One angel, the devil himself, proclaimed, "I will kill this man for what he did."

The young man was seized with terror. "NO!!!" he cried. "You can't kill this man! He just knocked me down. There's no crime here."

Turning in desperation to the other angel the young man pleaded for the large man's life. "Please you must save him!"

The angel smiled to the young and replied, "I cannot save him. He's not mine to save."

"But WHY?" the young man appealed.

"See what his actions have made of him and you will understand."

The young man turned back to the larger man, cold with dread, to discover he had not been killed. Instead his face and body had been twisted into an ugly, nightmarish beast. Repulsed and loath with fear the young man fled, the devil's laughter giving wings to his feet. The beast was left alone in the road unaware of what it had become.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Books have been written on this for over a century, words far more eloquent and coherent than mine. But, szsz, you are too smart to really dismiss a long and rigorous philosophical history. I suspect you know much more than your post lets on.

Ipaula, you are correct that the concept of liberty is a complex one, and that I'm more knowledgable about it than my statements let on. However, do you think that a complex analysis is appropriate or even useful here? I posted what I felt would do the job, and I believe it does, for the concept of liberty has not only a philosophical foundation, but a religious one that was and is emphasized in common and historical discourse.

I am donnot know you nor do I care to know but I find it very sad that usually come to any thread trying to make others look awfully fallacious. Astagfurullah. Also we can reminise about a time in the no so distant past where you also called my marriage false and unislamic. For that I would really like to thank you...it meant quite alot to me.

Oh, Henia, get off your high horse. Layla makes her own self look fallacious. She does it by coming here, slamming premarital sex, then denying her own fallacious logic that SHE can be married because SHE SAYS SO, so her sex isn't premarital, but others who do the same are commiting a sin. Please, whomever is buying that, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you!

I would like to know how one avoids commiting sin simply because they don't believe it is a sin. If I eat pork, but I say it's not pork, does that negate my liability?

No!

And don't try to tell me that I raised the issue of Layla's fake marriage in order to defame her; she did that to herself, and you BOTH would see that if your reading and condemnation wasn't so selective. Several times, the flaws in her logic of believing HER premarital sex to be ok while the same acts by others is not has been questioned. Her concept of marriage has been questioned, and not by me. She is not getting away with her story that ISLAM, a great faith, has been redefined by a western sectarian convert, to say that God believes she is married because she says so.

She has no protection, no means to negotiate her nikah, no means to divorce, no means to prevent her fiance (it is a K1) from legally marrying another woman. That is no marriage, protest all you want.

As for you, Henia, you make yourself more important than you are to me. For one thing, I didn't speak of you, precisely, but if you keep this up, I will be forced to do so. I asked, on your marriage thread, if you were doing a K1 or a K3, and for some time, received no response. I went on to say that if one is not married in a way that protects one's rights, as God commands, one should not hold oneself out as married, nor allow others to think that such actions were sanctioned by Islam. All day, others contributed comments to the thread in my absense, and by the time I returned, much had been attributed to me that I had not said, and there was much anger.

All well and good, people do tend to perceive things in different ways, with different sensitivities, and in the context of their own agenda. But do not tell me that you did not plan to do as Layla had done and have a paper marriage, for I saw that in your own posts, and from what I was told in PMs. that is what you did. I have no idea if that situation has been corrected, but if it has that would be a good thing.

As for ANYONE, not only me, commenting on posts that are freely offered, Layla herself commented that this is a discussion board and anyone can discuss what has been posted, so I comment. You don't have to like what I post or how I post it, and I have no responsibility as to what you read into my posts. But I am a plain speaker. I'm not going to waste time sugarcoating and smoozing, but get right to the point.

The reason why you are such an ardent defender of Layla's is perhaps because you see yourself in what I have said about her contradictions and illogic. In that case, TMI should be what it the basis of posting if you want no one to comment on it.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have reported you again because I'm not going to stand for your foul manners of insulting me in public every chance you get. Have a nice day

I'm reporting you too, Layla. Your habit of trying to pass of a fake marriage as real, then calling anyone who calls you on it as insulting is disruptive to the harmony of the board. You should not allowed to pass on false information on a board where being married or not married is a major factor in the immigration process.

So there!

[Veiled Princess 1]

I have reported you again because I'm not going to stand for your foul manners of insulting me in public every chance you get. Have a nice day

I'm reporting you too, Layla. Your habit of trying to pass of a fake marriage as real, then calling anyone who calls you on it as insulting is disruptive to the harmony of the board. You should not allowed to pass on false information on a board where being married or not married is a major factor in the immigration process.

So there!

My fake marriage??? I have carried out the necessary steps of completing my marriage as required by Islam... Just because you think you know better/more than God does not make it so!

I will not take marrital advice from a woman who was married to a man, who she can not be legally married to in the laws of Islam no matter what way she twists it, for many years and, I'm assuming, had many ####### children with... you sister are no one to judge another's marriage...

[Sofiyya 1,687]

My fake marriage??? I have carried out the necessary steps of completing my marriage as required by Islam... Just because you think you know better/more than God does not make it so!

You had a ceremony, but that doesn't make you married or you could file a K3 or a CR1. You are not married in Islam for the reasons I have stated above and before.

I will not take marrital advice from a woman who was married to a man, who she can not be legally married to in the laws of Islam no matter what way she twists it, for many years and, I'm assuming, had many ####### children with... you sister are no one to judge another's marriage...

The protections in marriage that are REQUIRED were available to me in my marriage, and no where in Islam does it prohibit Muslim women from marriage with ahl al kitab men. That is from men, not God, and I follow God.

You are following men, who will tell you that it is ok for you to give up your rights as a wife. In reality, you have no rights, not in Islam, not in law, despite your wishful thinking. I am looking out for out for the women who may read your illogical claims - I AM MARRIED BECAUSE I SAY SO - and believe what you have done is ok in Islam. You may fault my marriage, but you will not find any ayat, any Sunnah that prohibits it. What you have done is prohibited because you have no rights, no protection, no means to shura. You have nothing, but hope.

Sorry, not my fault.

BTW, Layla, I have noted that in the beginning of your positioning, you always claim to be married, then, gradually, you concede that you should and will undergo the legalities, that you don't believe that is wrong, and that you aren't advocating fake marriages for others. Insha'allah, we will cut to that part soon and get this debate over with.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Together4ever 1]

... and in the end, when the body expires, all we have to account for are our own actions. Ramadan Kareem.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Warning people about fake marriages is a noble action. I will account for it with humility.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Aymerlu 3]

... and in the end, when the body expires, all we have to account for are our own actions. Ramadan Kareem.

AMEN!!!!!

[doodlebug 3]

Warning people about fake marriages is a noble action. I will account for it with humility.

I've only been here a short time and I know it's ramadan and all but I have to say, and I rarely say this about anyone, that I really don't like you one little bit. I've never seen you say one kind word to anyone on this forum. I have to wonder what in your life has made you this bitter towards mankind. Oh well. Just an observation.

[Veiled Princess 1]

My fake marriage??? I have carried out the necessary steps of completing my marriage as required by Islam... Just because you think you know better/more than God does not make it so!

You had a ceremony, but that doesn't make you married or you could file a K3 or a CR1. You are not married in Islam for the reasons I have stated above and before.

I will not take marrital advice from a woman who was married to a man, who she can not be legally married to in the laws of Islam no matter what way she twists it, for many years and, I'm assuming, had many ####### children with... you sister are no one to judge another's marriage...

The protections in marriage that are REQUIRED were available to me in my marriage, and no where in Islam does it prohibit Muslim women from marriage with ahl al kitab men. That is from men, not God, and I follow God.

You are following men, who will tell you that it is ok for you to give up your rights as a wife. In reality, you have no rights, not in Islam, not in law, despite your wishful thinking. I am looking out for out for the women who may read your illogical claims - I AM MARRIED BECAUSE I SAY SO - and believe what you have done is ok in Islam. You may fault my marriage, but you will not find any ayat, any Sunnah that prohibits it. What you have done is prohibited because you have no rights, no protection, no means to shura. You have nothing, but hope.

Sorry, not my fault.

I have shown many prohibitions for it... you just choose to offer your own personal interpretation.... that's your business.. doesn't make it right.

I can't file K-1 because this particular country does not recognize my marriage... there are other rights in Islam that they also don't recognize and I don't take religious cues from a Godless government... I leave that for you

I am married becuase I have fulfilled all the requirements for a marriage in Islam... I have a signed contract... just because a Godless govt does not choose to uphold it does not make it less valid in God's eyes. God commands muslims to honor their contracts and fear Him... since both my husband and I are God-fearing muslims we will obey Him to the best of our ability in this inshallah... you wouldn't know anything about that though since you choose to marry non-muslims who don't give a ####### about your religion, your God, or your prophet

Given your requirements for marriage I guess many people in third world countries can not ever legally be married becuase they don't have stable govts or court systems or anything that protects their rights... At some point people just have to take personal responsibility for honoring their commitments...

It is also not from the Sunnah of our prophet that the govt of any country has to even know about a person's marriage for it to be valid... but I know you don't care about the way he did things... if it's not your way it's just not Islam now is it?

This was a general discussion about premarital sex... no one was accusing anyone else of engaging in anything and it was not directed at anyone until you came here to make it your personal attack on me and my honor.

I have always shown proof for any claims I have made here but you have always come here judging others and issuing fatawa about certain issues and people becuase you do not like them or how they follow Islam... you offer no proof from the Quran or Sunnah and when any proof from either source is given to you, you dismiss it as cherry picking ayat or ahadith... or you claim that the English translation is not correct... It's funny... I never realized it was such a HUGE conspiracy that ALL Arabs translate their language incorrectly just to mess with us non-native speakers but thank God we have the ONLY Arab who will be honest and give us the "correct" translation for everything

Disclaimer: Nothing I have said in this post is intended to be directed at anyone else reading this... only this person who chooses to attack me in public

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I've only been here a short time and I know it's ramadan and all but I have to say, and I rarely say this about anyone, that I really don't like you one little bit. I've never seen you say one kind word to anyone on this forum. I have to wonder what in your life has made you this bitter towards mankind. Oh well. Just an observation.

Perhaps it is easy for you to overlook the kind word.

Edited October 14, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have shown many prohibitions for it... you just choose to offer your own personal interpretation.... that's your business.. doesn't make it right.

It is my business, I chose to post it, and I don't report every time you, and only you, btw, challenge me on it. However, I have reported you for calling my children bastards.

I can't file K-1 because this particular country does not recognize my marriage... there are other rights in Islam that they also don't recognize and I don't take religious cues from a Godless government... I leave that for you

Neither country recognizes your "marriage", because you aren't married, period. Not in Islam, not in the law of either country. One of them was a MUSLIM country, and you ignored their laws too.

I am married becuase I have fulfilled all the requirements for a marriage in Islam... I have a signed contract... just because a Godless govt does not choose to uphold it does not make it less valid in God's eyes. God commands muslims to honor their contracts and fear Him... since both my husband and I are God-fearing muslims we will obey Him to the best of our ability in this inshallah... you wouldn't know anything about that though since you choose to marry non-muslims who don't give a ####### about your religion, your God, or your prophet

You had a ceremony, not a marriage. You have no protections that married women have. That is a fact and your denial doesn't make it so. I would say that your man doesn't give a ####### about your religion, you God and your Prophet, in that case.

Given your requirements for marriage I guess many people in third world countries can not ever legally be married becuase they don't have stable govts or court systems or anything that protects their rights... At some point people just have to take personal responsibility for honoring their commitments...

I'm not about the third world, I'm about you spreading lies about Islam and leaving the impression that it is ok to have a paper marriage.

It is also not from the Sunnah of our prophet that the govt of any country has to even know about a person's marriage for it to be valid... but I know you don't care about the way he did things... if it's not your way it's just not Islam now is it?

In the Prophet's time, there were different laws and different ways to enforce those laws. We are in the here and now, and the selective way you choose to obey some laws and ignore others is not Islamic, nor is it in step with the call for Muslims to follow the law of the land where they are.

This was a general discussion about premarital sex... no one was accusing anyone else of engaging in anything and it was not directed at anyone until you came here to make it your personal attack on me and my honor.

Honey, I read pages and pages of posts before I said one thing about your fake marriage; I simply followed commentary about your illogic that had been posted by others. You cannot deny that I was not the first to ask you why what you did was dissimilar to what you were condemning others for.

I have always shown proof for any claims I have made here but you have always come here judging others and issuing fatawa about certain issues and people becuase you do not like them or how they follow Islam... you offer no proof from the Quran or Sunnah and when any proof from either source is given to you, you dismiss it as cherry picking ayat or ahadith... or you claim that the English translation is not correct... It's funny... I never realized it was such a HUGE conspiracy that ALL Arabs translate their language incorrectly just to mess with us non-native speakers but thank God we have the ONLY Arab who will be honest and give us the "correct" translation for everything

I know you say that, but it's not true. I'm not the only one who questions you, Layla. I just seem to be the one who bothers you the most.

[Together4ever 1]

I'm always grateful for these gentle little reminders that I have more important things to do.