honeymoon with the WHOLE family?

[honeyblonde 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

JP, not sure where you got a quote of me saying that Abdel would just sit home and let me support him. I do think that if I chose to support a man and let him be a househusband (after having been a housewife before myself and knowing how much work it can be when there are kids, the only condition where we've discussed him staying home while I worked other than him going to school full-time for a few years to get a degree while I worked) and he accepted that, it wouldn't make me less of a feminist. Many successful men suport their wives while they stay home, so if I reverse the roles does that make me less of a feminist? Please explain how.

Actually, Abdel started working as soon as he could after he got his EAD and has been working sometimes 7 days a week at a physically demanding job. He knows he still isn't paying half of the bills, but he sure is trying, even though I don't care how much he pays of them.

Even when Abdel couldn't work yet, he worked long hours renovating our bathroom and laundry room. He didn't have a choice about me paying for him to get here, but he's had choices since he got here and I can't see how you can accuse him of wanting to just sit on his butt and let me support him or where you're getting your information.

[Jenn! 918]

I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

in that case, i know of a few rednecks in arkansas who are feminists

I'm sure there are. That's not to say that they aren't lazy as well.

[deeshla 0]

The virgin / ####### dichotomy. There are shades of gray. Not every person who has sex before marriage is a free-wheeling #######.

I find it interesting that even women, when left to this discussion, will divide up other women into this dichotomy -- the way men have always done.

did someone use the word #######???

Yes - it was implied many many times -- look back a few pages and you will see -- phrases like "sleeping around" and references to porn or prostitution. That is just plain goofy. I do not think you were the one who used these words. Using that kind of language emotionalizes and polarizes a lot. And it is just not fair. There is a spectrum of experience between the street-walking prostitute and the virgin hymen-intact princess that waits until marriage. Just the diversity on this board should show that. What I do not understand is why people on this forum do not respect the individual choice (alas! feminism!) therein.

[rebeccajo 14]

*thinking*

Is it ok to have sex with your man AFTER marriage too?

I mean.....I wouldn't want to appear to be a feminist or anything.

[jordanianprincess 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

I'm sorry. I'm still not following. He is a feminist if he supports that she has a choice to be the one to go out and work. He would also still be a feminist if he went out to work while she stayed home, if that was what she wanted. He would *not* be a feminist if he were to insist that he worked instead of her even if that was against her will.

To me it sounds like you're kind of using the word feminist to mean "gentleman" in the traditional sense. I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

How does him staying him make him a feminist? He is not staying home by choice and I'm pretty darn sure that he would work if given the chance too. Liz has always worked and even before he came here. Also given the fact that he wants to send money home. As Liz has mentioned in previous posts, he doesn't like the fact that he can't freely send money home to his family. Given that why would he want to stay at home? I dont think being a gentleman in a traditonal sense mean feminist. She is obviously a feminist which is fine. But the fact that he is staying home is not in support of that, its has more to do with the fact that he has not been in this country that long and has not found steady work yet.

[honeyblonde 0]

To butt in where I'm probably not wanted, my interpretation of what Liz was saying is that women have the choice to sleep with whom they want, when they want, and to want take away that CHOICE from fellow women (i.e., make pre-marital sex illegal), would be considered anti-feminist (in taking away a woman's right to make her own sexual decisions).

From what I've read, I don't see where she's trying to insult those who say that they agree with waiting until marriage, just that she believes that there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex and that not allowing someone to have the CHOICE to have pre-marital sex is force-feeding them values that may or may not be their own.

I just see a lot of comments responding to Liz like she was deliberately trying to insult people and make herself sound superior, and I just didn't see that at all. Just wanted to add my $.02.

Thank you. That is all I was trying to say but I'm just not as eloquent as you about it. I guess I got too emotional.

To Bosco - I understand that you take that comment about the book as an insult but from what I see in this forum (not just on your reading list) the majority of the women who were disagreeing with me spend most of their reading time studying Islam, not feminist philosophy. I didn't mean it as an insult at all, just pointing out that we have very different tastes and viewpoints and that we need to respect that.

To whoever said "Why the focus on Feminism?" - just trying to point out that as well as Muslimas and Christians, there are also Feminists in this forum, even if there are many here who want to try to prove that I'm not one for some unknown reason.

[rebeccajo 14]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

[jordanianprincess 0]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

JP, not sure where you got a quote of me saying that Abdel would just sit home and let me support him. I do think that if I chose to support a man and let him be a househusband (after having been a housewife before myself and knowing how much work it can be when there are kids, the only condition where we've discussed him staying home while I worked other than him going to school full-time for a few years to get a degree while I worked) and he accepted that, it wouldn't make me less of a feminist. Many successful men suport their wives while they stay home, so if I reverse the roles does that make me less of a feminist? Please explain how.

Actually, Abdel started working as soon as he could after he got his EAD and has been working sometimes 7 days a week at a physically demanding job. He knows he still isn't paying half of the bills, but he sure is trying, even though I don't care how much he pays of them.

Even when Abdel couldn't work yet, he worked long hours renovating our bathroom and laundry room. He didn't have a choice about me paying for him to get here, but he's had choices since he got here and I can't see how you can accuse him of wanting to just sit on his butt and let me support him or where you're getting your information.

Ok so he works, so then how is he a feminist as you contstantly refer to him as being such? I never said you were less of a feminist, I said Abdel is not a feminist because you work. I never accused him of sitting on his butt, can you show me where I said that? I dont see why you have to misquote everything that is said? As another member said, this is a discussion and not a personal attack on you.

[Ban Hammer 13,340]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

ah ####### i thought i was one for a minute there

[jordanianprincess 0]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

Exactly! And choosing not to sleep around doesnt make you unsupportive of feminism.

[Jenn! 918]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

I'm sorry. I'm still not following. He is a feminist if he supports that she has a choice to be the one to go out and work. He would also still be a feminist if he went out to work while she stayed home, if that was what she wanted. He would *not* be a feminist if he were to insist that he worked instead of her even if that was against her will.

To me it sounds like you're kind of using the word feminist to mean "gentleman" in the traditional sense. I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

How does him staying him make him a feminist? He is not staying home by choice and I'm pretty darn sure that he would work if given the chance too. Liz has always worked and even before he came here. Also given the fact that he wants to send money home. As Liz has mentioned in previous posts, he doesn't like the fact that he can't freely send money home to his family. Given that why would he want to stay at home? I dont think being a gentleman in a traditonal sense mean feminist. She is obviously a feminist which is fine. But the fact that he is staying home is not in support of that, its has more to do with the fact that he has not been in this country that long and has not found steady work yet.

Sorry, I was going off of your statements not any that Liz has made previously: "You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that." And then also you said, "Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist". I thought from these two statements that your comments were made under the assumption that he was ok with the choice that had been made. Sorry for any confusion.

[sophyie 0]

I honestly didn't even know there were men that are "feminists" . (Might be a language thing though, I'm pretty sure in German we would use the term "feminist" only for women)

To the whole "pre-marital sex or not"- discussion:

I think it should be every woman's (actually every couple's) decision, and as long as they agree with one another- I don't see why anything should be illegal... actually, by making something illegal, it might be even more interesting to some.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Yes - it was implied many many times -- look back a few pages and you will see -- phrases like "sleeping around" and references to porn or prostitution. That is just plain goofy. I do not think you were the one who used these words. Using that kind of language emotionalizes and polarizes a lot. And it is just not fair. There is a spectrum of experience between the street-walking prostitute and the virgin hymen-intact princess that waits until marriage. Just the diversity on this board should show that. What I do not understand is why people on this forum do not respect the individual choice (alas! feminism!) therein.

Actually I have used this phrase.... and this is precisely what I'm talking about and what I will continue to believe destroys a society.... just because someone is not a virgin doesn't neccessarily mean she's been sleeping around...

And as far as my opinion... it stretches to men as well as women... so no discrimination on my part

[Jenn! 918]

Girls.....

'sleeping around' does not equal 'feminist'. Ok?

True, but not supporting the option to if one so chooses does equal "not feminist".

[jpaula 20]

I just have one question for you Liz, what is the deal with your obsession with Feminism? Why do women have to be feminists. You stated earlier that Abdel was feminist enough in his views to stay home while you went out to support the family, when in fact a feminist would never accept that.

Can you explain this JP? I don't understand how that would be unacceptable to a feminist. Feminism means having choices for women rather than presumed roles.

If he was a feminist then he would not stay home. Maybe he is ok with her being a feminist and staying home himself but that doesnt make him a feminist. She is the feminist.

I'm sorry. I'm still not following. He is a feminist if he supports that she has a choice to be the one to go out and work. He would also still be a feminist if he went out to work while she stayed home, if that was what she wanted. He would *not* be a feminist if he were to insist that he worked instead of her even if that was against her will.

To me it sounds like you're kind of using the word feminist to mean "gentleman" in the traditional sense. I think being ok with her going out and working while he stays home is exactly what makes him a feminist.

How does him staying him make him a feminist? He is not staying home by choice and I'm pretty darn sure that he would work if given the chance too. Liz has always worked and even before he came here. Also given the fact that he wants to send money home. As Liz has mentioned in previous posts, he doesn't like the fact that he can't freely send money home to his family. Given that why would he want to stay at home? I dont think being a gentleman in a traditonal sense mean feminist. She is obviously a feminist which is fine. But the fact that he is staying home is not in support of that, its has more to do with the fact that he has not been in this country that long and has not found steady work yet.

His staying home does not, by definition, make him a feminist. Nor does it exclude the possibility.

It is incredibly sad to me when women attack the choices other women make be it for themselves or for their families. Cetainly no one here condemns those who choose to abstain until marriage. But, when that choice is forced on others through guilt or law, something is wrong.