Nightmare of an Interview @ Mumbai 4/19

[sachinky 465]

Since I couldn't edit my post anymore..

1. Is it completely unheard of in the US for an American male/female to marry an Indian?

2. Is it completely unheard of in India for an Indian male/female to marry an American?

If not, then don't think of it as a red flag.

I agree with you, in that I don't think V&C have any reason to worry about.

But while these sort of relationships are not completely unheard of, it is pretty damned rare. Rare enough to be a cultural aberration. Couple that with a large significant age gap (definitely against all established Indian cultural norms), the fact that the female OP is nearing the end of her child-bearing years, has a child from a previous relationship, the meeting was online, and only 10 days have been spent in person together -- it is what it is. Those are not one but several HUGE red flags. Again, it is has very little to do with race, per se. Those are the things I pointed out earlier, not as judgement but as the factors that led to this unsurprising outcome. The OP jumped to the defense of her relationship (despite the fact that I wasn't attacking her relationship) -- just telling her that this is what the CO saw and these are the factors that led to his/her decision. India is a high-fraud country (for good reason, IMO -- I have seen people say and do things you wouldn't believe when it comes to a US green-card) and these factors are clearly why the beneficiary was grilled for hours.

At the end of the day, this is what the CO essentially is looking at. If you take out the immigration aspect, does this relationship still make any sense? Would the beneficiary continue to be in this relationship, all other factors remaining constant, if the OP were an Indian female?

Edited April 23, 2012 by sachinky

[Iyawo Ijebu 157]

Well said. Ha full disclosure I am that 53 year old grandma with 32 year old husband. Yes we know what we are in for (NOW), and believe we have all red flags addressed and have countered with much evidence and face time and not doing what really raises the red flag,

1.Like marrying first visit soon as you arrive than leaving (we didn't).

2. Long courtship before meet and after face to face.

3. 6 months together. 6 weeks before wedding, 4 months after.

4. Family acceptance and powerful statements from his mum who we lived with the entire 6 months.

I know there will still be questions. But i think we will be okay. More visits to come more parties and more ceremonies before interview time.

One thing though, at least in my culture (Yoruba tribe), it is not the norm for the Mother of a 32 year old Male to approve his marriage. Just to throw that out there as food for thought.

I had to seek and pursue the acceptance of my 24 year old fiance partly because she is female, still lived at home and that she was moving to America (might as well have been Mars from the point of view of her Mum).

YMMV.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Iyawo Ijebu

[sachinky 465]

Actually he didn't. The OP was not married before, so there was no 'previous marriage'.

And if you knew anything about India or Indian societal norms you would know that a child from a previous "relationship" would be considered much "worse" than a child from a previous "marriage." At least, when it comes to consulate officers who are well aware of prevalent cultural attitudes in India and how an average 24 year old Indian male's parents are likely to feel about these circumstances.

[dwheels76 5,468]

One thing though, at least in my culture (Yoruba tribe), it is not the norm for the Mother of a 32 year old Male to approve his marriage. Just to throw that out there as food for thought.

I had to seek and pursue the acceptance of my 24 year old fiance partly because she is female, still lived at home and that she was moving to America (might as well have been Mars from the point of view of her Mum).

YMMV.

Oh I hear you and no its not normal anywhere on earth (my husband is Igbo). But than are any of us doing anything that's normal.

We have had quite a relationship. When mum first found out of us and my age she forbid it. We broke up for 6 weeks. But got back together when she saw how miserable her son was. I started talking to her via phone and well won her heart. She's the one who invited me to 9ja and we are truly mother and daughter. I love and adore this woman and we talk and text all the time like two 13 year d teens.

I know without her approval there would have been no marriage. She even paid for the wedding at courthouse.

[sachinky 465]

This is just me, musing to myself: relationships like this, in itself seems rather unequal and unfair to me, and I wonder how factors like this are taken into account during the interview. We were both 22 when we got married so we didn't really have an established life to speak of on either side, but if the beneficiary and petitioner have no common ground to speak of -- that is, the petitioner has such an established and settled life that makes it impossible for him/her to move whereas the the beneficiary is fresh out of college and has nothing to speak of. In the context of third-world countries, it would also bear a look at the beneficiary's quality of life to discern whether desperation to get to the US at any cost is a factor in this relationship.

Let it be said, for the record, in my whole born-and-brought-up-native Indian life, I have not known any twenty-year old Indian guy who'd be seen with an Indian woman approaching forty (with a kid from a previous relationship to boot) in public as engaged or married. The whole scenario is so absurd that it makes me laugh. I don't care how cosmopolitan or liberal the city is, or how progressive their parents are and how enlightened their upbringing was. No way, Jose. [Of course, now, these women who have spent 2 weeks in India will tell me otherwise, because, you know, anyone with an Indian significant other is an expert on India. Or that their beau is different and so bloody mature]. So what's so special about these 40 year old American women that suddenly all these deep seated cultural taboos are being flouted left, right and center, with apparently, parental blessings when the same exceptions would never be made for another Indian woman? A green-card sure is a nice way to sweeten the deal, I'd think.

I don't think it's discrimination against couples with age-gaps but rather concern over what that age gap implies. Similarly, I refuse to believe that the US consulates in India have it out for inter-racial couples. It's not race that is the issue, but other factors in play, that bring out the disparity in life goals, education levels, socio-economic strata, etc.

Thoughts?

Edited April 29, 2012 by sachinky

[Iyawo Ijebu 157]

This is just me, musing to myself: relationships like this, in itself seems rather unequal and unfair to me, and I wonder how factors like this are taken into account during the interview. We were both 22 when we got married so we didn't really have an established life to speak of on either side, but if the beneficiary and petitioner have no common ground to speak of -- that is, the petitioner has such an established and settled life that makes it impossible for him/her to move whereas the the beneficiary is fresh out of college and has nothing to speak of. In the context of third-world countries, it would also bear a look at the beneficiary's quality of life to discern whether desperation to get to the US at any cost is a factor in this relationship.

Let it be said, for the record, in my whole born-and-brought-up-native Indian life, I have not known any twenty-year old Indian guy who'd be seen with an Indian woman approaching forty (with a kid from a previous relationship to boot) in public as engaged or married. The whole scenario is so absurd that it makes me laugh. I don't care how cosmopolitan or liberal the city is, or how progressive their parents are and how enlightened their upbringing was. No way, Jose. [Of course, now, these women who have spent 2 weeks in India will tell me otherwise, because, you know, anyone with an Indian significant other is an expert on India. Or that their beau is different and so bloody mature]. So what's so special about these 40 year old American women that suddenly all these deep seated cultural taboos are being flouted left, right and center, with apparently, parental blessings when the same exceptions would never be made for another Indian woman? A green-card sure is a nice way to sweeten the deal, I'd think.

I don't think it's discrimination against couples with age-gaps but rather concern over what that age gap implies. Similarly, I refuse to believe that the US consulates in India have it out for inter-racial couples. It's not race that is the issue, but other factors in play, that bring out the disparity in life goals, education levels, socio-economic strata, etc.

Thoughts?

The same is true for Nigeria, and in any tribe.

[devotional 4]

Wonder if you will say the same when your barely legal daughter brings home a man in his 60s.

You have got to be kidding me!!!! If my "barely legal" daughter were to bring home a man in her sixties- I'd have the same thought process as anything that applies to her life after she's "legal" and considered an "adult" which is " You are an adult, make your decisions and be ready to suffer any consequences that may come out of it". My fiance and I are 12 yrs apart in age, but as I'M the one in the relationship and I'M an adult, other people's concerns or opinions swayed me very little when our ages were discussed. You can't help who you fall in love with. If age was always a priority to you- then you would date someone close to you in age, if education was a priority- then you would date some with university degrees. As individuals, you make up your mind about what is important in a relationship and what is not. Age was never important to me, as I'm sure it isn't to many people who happen to fall in love with someone older/younger than them.

[Boiler 45,519]

Are you Indian?

[devotional 4]

Are you Indian?

No. (but neither is Peter_Pan who made the comment)

She also stated that she's disgusted when she sees an older woman with a younger man, because it means that the woman has "low self-esteem".

[Boiler 45,519]

Read Sachinky's post. She is.

[DC85 113]

This is just me, musing to myself: relationships like this, in itself seems rather unequal and unfair to me, and I wonder how factors like this are taken into account during the interview. We were both 22 when we got married so we didn't really have an established life to speak of on either side, but if the beneficiary and petitioner have no common ground to speak of -- that is, the petitioner has such an established and settled life that makes it impossible for him/her to move whereas the the beneficiary is fresh out of college and has nothing to speak of. In the context of third-world countries, it would also bear a look at the beneficiary's quality of life to discern whether desperation to get to the US at any cost is a factor in this relationship.

Let it be said, for the record, in my whole born-and-brought-up-native Indian life, I have not known any twenty-year old Indian guy who'd be seen with an Indian woman approaching forty (with a kid from a previous relationship to boot) in public as engaged or married. The whole scenario is so absurd that it makes me laugh. I don't care how cosmopolitan or liberal the city is, or how progressive their parents are and how enlightened their upbringing was. No way, Jose. [Of course, now, these women who have spent 2 weeks in India will tell me otherwise, because, you know, anyone with an Indian significant other is an expert on India. Or that their beau is different and so bloody mature]. So what's so special about these 40 year old American women that suddenly all these deep seated cultural taboos are being flouted left, right and center, with apparently, parental blessings when the same exceptions would never be made for another Indian woman? A green-card sure is a nice way to sweeten the deal, I'd think.

I don't think it's discrimination against couples with age-gaps but rather concern over what that age gap implies. Similarly, I refuse to believe that the US consulates in India have it out for inter-racial couples. It's not race that is the issue, but other factors in play, that bring out the disparity in life goals, education levels, socio-economic strata, etc.

Thoughts?

I hope you give more respect for the other's feeling, this place is maintained to help the others on their issues regarding the immigration. If you had a smooth process that doesn't give you the right to judge the people in this way. I think, from your picture , you and your husband from different race, and sometimes this is an issue when it comes to the immigration. But, Nobody asked you to defend your relation. you are telling us that the CO is doing his/her job, CO's & IO's sometime do a horrible judgment. I don't think you work for the DHS or DOS, so you defend them. I can get you so many stories about officers who did a stupid, unprofessional jobs when it comes to the decisions. When this poor lady wrote about her problem , she was seeking hints or suggestions so shat she can be with her lover. and I think she is older than you and she should be able to judge her partner's intentions more than you and more than me.

[DC85 113]

You have got to be kidding me!!!! If my "barely legal" daughter were to bring home a man in her sixties- I'd have the same thought process as anything that applies to her life after she's "legal" and considered an "adult" which is " You are an adult, make your decisions and be ready to suffer any consequences that may come out of it". My fiance and I are 12 yrs apart in age, but as I'M the one in the relationship and I'M an adult, other people's concerns or opinions swayed me very little when our ages were discussed. You can't help who you fall in love with. If age was always a priority to you- then you would date someone close to you in age, if education was a priority- then you would date some with university degrees. As individuals, you make up your mind about what is important in a relationship and what is not. Age was never important to me, as I'm sure it isn't to many people who happen to fall in love with someone older/younger than them.

Totally agree with you.

[sachinky 465]

I hope you give more respect for the other's feeling, this place is maintained to help the others on their issues regarding the immigration. If you had a smooth process that doesn't give you the right to judge the people in this way. I think, from your picture , you and your husband from different race, and sometimes this is an issue when it comes to the immigration. But, Nobody asked you to defend your relation. you are telling us that the CO is doing his/her job, CO's & IO's sometime do a horrible judgment. I don't think you work for the DHS or DOS, so you defend them. I can get you so many stories about officers who did a stupid, unprofessional jobs when it comes to the decisions. When this poor lady wrote about her problem , she was seeking hints or suggestions so shat she can be with her lover. and I think she is older than you and she should be able to judge her partner's intentions more than you and more than me.

My last post was more of a general musing in nature, and not specific to this case -- I thought that this thread would be the most relevant one in which to post in. Like I have said before, it personally doesn't bother me if the OP is 20 years older or younger than her fiance or how many kids she has. Again, I am not judging her or anyone's relationship. I am writing my perspective from my experience of having being an Indian for the last 25 years. I don't poke my nose in cases where the beneficiary is from another country since I cannot authoritatively speak about another nation's cultural norms. I can however do that with India. Telling the truth doesn't automatically mean judgement, I don't know why people keep insisting that I must be judging them. Anyway, whatever, think what you will.

I will stand by my comment that the scenario of a 25 year old Indian male being engaged to a 40 year old Indian woman with a child from a previous relationship would never happen. In Indian society, it IS absurd. None of my male friends, of which I have plenty, would even consider it. And they all belong to the upper echelons of society, have university degrees, liberal upbringing, they grew up in urban, cosmopolitan cities, etc.

Of course, I don't work for the DHS or DOS, so I have no idea what you're trying to say there.

I am one half of an unconventional (by Indian standards) relationship so clearly I am not saying that only Indian/Indian relationships are legitimate. We both belong to different races and we had no real issues during our immigration journey to speak of, for which I am truly grateful. But I can tell you right now that if Mr. Sachinky were a black man, our immigration journey would've been a whole different ball game. If we hadn't met in college and instead, met on Facebook. If I was ten years older than him. If he or I were Muslim. If he had a kid. If I had been previously married. You could change one variable and the outcome could have possibly been radically different.

I do not envy the job of the consulate officers, I do not think it is easy to deal with blatant fraud on a day to day basis. Do they make mistakes? I am sure they do. But on the whole, I will say that most of the cases out of India who have been denied, I too would have denied them too, based on their profile picture alone. If I, a stranger on the internet, am having doubts about the validity of your relationship, you can be rest assured that the CO (who has extensive knowledge of the land, its people, its culture and normative societal expectations) has his doubts as well. I realize that this will not be a popular opinion but then, the truth is never popular.

The problem here is that you, I or even the lady in question is not the ultimate judge of the beneficiary's intentions. The consulate officer is. All the whining and "supportive" comments in the world is not going to change that. These text-book red flags invite scrutiny for good reason.

Edited April 30, 2012 by sachinky

[SunDancer 0]

Again, I just want to say that what I was upset and appalled at was the way my fiance' was treated. Yes I understand there is fraud out there and they only have a short amount of time to try to ascertain if the person they are interviewing is in fact trying to commit fraud. However there is still a proper and professional way to do that. I am not saying that they should have coddled him and acted like his best friend. But at the very least they should have treated him like a human being, but instead they screamed at him and interrogated him for over 2 hours. That is what I was originally stating when I posted this topic, not that I was surprised that they issued us a 221g, As I had stated before I knew this was going to be a journey. we had discussed this numerous times. I do not pretend to be an expert on India just because I was there for 2 weeks.There is much I do not know about India, every day when I talk to my fiance' I feel like I learn something new about India. My parents brought me up to not be judgmental,racist,sexist or anything. I was taught regardless of color,age,gender,religion,ethnicity or what ever that we are all human beings. No so long ago we had slavery, but now that has been abolished. Yes there is still racism but it gets better a little each day, yes there are different cultures all over the world. But my fiance' was told flat out,"You are Indian and she is a White American it is impossible for you two to have a valid relationship". If you want to get technical yes I am an American, however I am 3/4 French and 1/4 Native American Indian. Again why should it matter what nationality any of us are? Sorry I am just rambling off a bunch of nonsense but in my opinion age,race or if either of you have been married before or have kids should not be relevant in this process. I feel if there is fraud then it is fraud and should be dealt with accordingly with the law. Many of us do not choose who we fall in love with, yet it seems like we are being singled out and punished if any of us have any kind of difference such as in my case we are not both Indian so a valid relationship is not possible, who's right is it to say that we don't have a real valid relationship? Some of you on here or anyone in India just because you don't know anyone who has a similar relationship that my fiance' and I have. I am sorry but that is just ridiculous, again we are human beings so why can't we embrace other cultures? Just because it is not the "norm"? Makes no sense to me.

[cnm2001 3]

I am a new member but I am not exactly new to VisaJourney. I have relied on this website extensively during my immigration process but never registered..until now. I felt the need to register after reading sachinky's comments regarding SunDancer's situation. I could be wrong but I get the impression that sachinky has a bit of "I am better than others" attitude. Her thinly veiled judgmental comments about SunDancer's relationship and her statement about how the CO granted her a visa in less than three minutes are just two examples. When I applied for a visa several years ago it was granted very easily and quickly. I did have a strong case, but two others I knew were denied at the same consulate, despite the fact they also had strong evidence. The point is that it is not always possible to explain (much less explain away) the CO's decisions simplistically. Nor should one try to. Sundancer felt that justice was not served in her case, and she approached this site seeking suggestions. I have no idea whether justice was served or not. But the best I can do is to offer her helpful suggestions, if I have any. If there is nothing helpful to say, I should at least have the courtesy to stay quiet. This is not meant as an attack on sachink. Not at all. Perhaps she is too young and needs help in terms of social skills.

Edited April 30, 2012 by cnm2001