If only these students had been allowed to protect themselves

[xebec 195]

It was a private school and like all private institutions, they can forbid weapons on campus just as most places do, even in states that allow concealed weapons. Better to be thinking of how to prevent future tragedies like this around the country rather than trying to make this out as an example of what happens when no one carries a gun except the shooter.

I thought that was what was under consideration here....what might be used to prevent or mitigate these tragedies. Having a higher possibility that someone on the scene can respond with appropriate force seems to be a good idea. Or maybe we can have a nationwide candlelight vigil, and agitate for more gun laws....that way what the shooter did can be double-quadruple super illegal...that'll put a stop to it.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

How many places of employment allow you to carry a weapon to work? How many times we've seen disgruntled employees go on a shooting spree? Arming everyone is not the solution and I'm a supporter of concealed weapons permits. I live in a state where you don't even need a permit and yet, most establishments have a 'no weapons allowed' sign. To allow weapons on the premise of most anywhere would be safety nightmare. Carrying a gun, or any lethal weapon on your person is not the most effective way to protect yourself and others in most situations. There are far more effective ways to prevent such tragedies from happening.

So those employees that went on shooting sprees were legally packing a gun to work every day?

[SMOKE 1,426]

I thought that was what was under consideration here....what might be used to prevent or mitigate these tragedies. Having a higher possibility that someone on the scene can respond with appropriate force seems to be a good idea. Or maybe we can have a nationwide candlelight vigil, and agitate for more gun laws....that way what the shooter did can be double-quadruple super illegal...that'll put a stop to it.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I thought that was what was under consideration here....what might be used to prevent or mitigate these tragedies. Having a higher possibility that someone on the scene can respond with appropriate force seems to be a good idea. Or maybe we can have a nationwide candlelight vigil, and agitate for more gun laws....that way what the shooter did can be double-quadruple super illegal...that'll put a stop to it.

That shooter would really be in for it now if we only had stricter laws against murder.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I think if waiters are allowed to carry knives, then patrons should be allowed to carry guns. It's only fair.

Here's a scenario. A patron complains that his steak knife is dirty, so his waiter goes and gets him a clean one. The waiter brings it to the patron and a guy five tables away with short-sightedness and a hair trigger thinks he's witnessing someone about to be stabbed, pulls out his gun and starts firing. Unfortunately, the patron's wife was on the other side of the waiter leaning over the table and is struck by one of the bullets. The patron, recognizing that someone has opened fire on him and his family pulls out his gun and starts firing back, shooting another waiter who happened to be carrying some food out to another table. Pretty soon, the whole fvckin restaurant has bullets flying in all directions, all in earnest as proactive personal protection from bad guys with guns.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[xebec 195]

How many places of employment allow you to carry a weapon to work? How many times we've seen disgruntled employees go on a shooting spree? Arming everyone is not the solution and I'm a supporter of concealed weapons permits. I live in a state where you don't even need a permit and yet, most establishments have a 'no weapons allowed' sign. To allow weapons on the premise of most anywhere would be safety nightmare. Carrying a gun, or any lethal weapon on your person is not the most effective way to protect yourself and others in most situations. There are far more effective ways to prevent such tragedies from happening.

Think about it....if you have a employee that is prone to rage and lawlessness, especially those that are fantasizing about killing bosses and co-workers, no workplace rules are going to influence their behavior. It sounds a little like you are sliding toward that old "guns cause the crime" mentality. Carrying a gun may not be the most effective way of assuring one's safety in most cases, and guns won't often "prevent" crimes like the one in the OP....but that's not the point. The point really is that if you find yourself in this sort of situation, a gun may be the only thing that keeps you or other innocents alive.

Edited to ask- What are the "far more effective" solutions?

Edited April 4, 2012 by xebec

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Here's a scenario. A patron complains that his steak knife is dirty, so his waiter goes and gets him a clean one. The waiter brings it to the patron and a guy five tables away with short-sightedness and a hair trigger thinks he's witnessing someone about to be stabbed, pulls out his gun and starts firing. Unfortunately, the patron's wife was on the other side of the waiter leaning over the table and is struck by one of the bullets. The patron, recognizing that someone has opened fire on him and his family pulls out his gun and starts firing back, shooting another waiter who happened to be carrying some food out to another table. Pretty soon, the whole fvckin restaurant has bullets flying in all directions, all in earnest as proactive personal protection from bad guys with guns.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I thought that was what was under consideration here....what might be used to prevent or mitigate these tragedies. Having a higher possibility that someone on the scene can respond with appropriate force seems to be a good idea. Or maybe we can have a nationwide candlelight vigil, and agitate for more gun laws....that way what the shooter did can be double-quadruple super illegal...that'll put a stop to it.

Private property rights trump individual rights - or at least we are told that by Libertarians who despise any laws which protect civil rights. Signs like, 'No Blacks Allowed' are well within the rights of private establishments, according to Libertarians. So how is it that the 2nd Amendment gets lifted above other constitutional rights when it comes to entering a private establishment? In other words, it doesn't matter what the laws on the books are, a private establishment has the right to prohibit weapons of any sort onto their premises, and that can be seen in states like Arizona where you don't even need a license to carry a concealed weapon.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Think about it....if you have a employee that is prone to rage and lawlessness, especially those that are fantasizing about killing bosses and co-workers, no workplace rules are going to influence their behavior. It sounds a little like you are sliding toward that old "guns cause the crime" mentality. Carrying a gun may not be the most effective way of assuring one's safety in most cases, and guns won't often "prevent" crimes like the one in the OP....but that's not the point. The point really is that if you find yourself in this sort of situation, a gun may be the only thing that keeps you or other innocents alive.

Edited to ask- What are the "far more effective" solutions?

I'm saying that you aren't going to find many employers who will allow you to bring a weapon to work, let alone, carry it on your person. And they have every right to prohibit you from doing so. You will never get your 2nd Amendment right to trump their property rights, unless you believe you have a constitutional precedent. If so, I'd like to hear it and then ask you if that precedent extends to other constitutional rights vs. private property?

[SMOKE 1,426]

Edited to ask- What are the "far more effective" solutions?

you know you're not getting an answer. right?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

you know you're not getting an answer. right?

[natty bumppo 297]

Here's a scenario. A patron complains that his steak knife is dirty, so his waiter goes and gets him a clean one. The waiter brings it to the patron and a guy five tables away with short-sightedness and a hair trigger thinks he's witnessing someone about to be stabbed, pulls out his gun and starts firing. Unfortunately, the patron's wife was on the other side of the waiter leaning over the table and is struck by one of the bullets. The patron, recognizing that someone has opened fire on him and his family pulls out his gun and starts firing back, shooting another waiter who happened to be carrying some food out to another table. Pretty soon, the whole fvckin restaurant has bullets flying in all directions, all in earnest as proactive personal protection from bad guys with guns.

diazepam ... could be you're taking too much or not enough

[one...two...tree 2,762]

you know you're not getting an answer. right?

Because the larger argument here is whether or not private establishments can prohibit weapons or not. They can, but I'd like to hear your answer if you think that they cannot deny you your 2nd Amendment right.

If you know that your employer or the places you frequent prohibit weapons, and you're that concerned for your personal safety at those places, it would make sense that you would be thinking of alternative ways of protection.

[^_^ 5,021]

Because the larger argument here is whether or not private establishments can prohibit weapons or not. They can, but I'd like to hear your answer if you think that they cannot deny you your 2nd Amendment right.

If you know that your employer or the places you frequent prohibit weapons, and you're that concerned for your personal safety at those places, it would make sense that you would be thinking of alternative ways of protection.

If civil rights apply to people in private establishments of public accommodation, then why don't constitutional rights also apply?

[xebec 195]

Private property rights trump individual rights - or at least we are told that by Libertarians who despise any laws which protect civil rights. Signs like, 'No Blacks Allowed' are well within the rights of private establishments, according to Libertarians. So how is it that the 2nd Amendment gets lifted above other constitutional rights when it comes to entering a private establishment? In other words, it doesn't matter what the laws on the books are, a private establishment has the right to prohibit weapons of any sort onto their premises, and that can be seen in states like Arizona where you don't even need a license to carry a concealed weapon.

I'm saying that you aren't going to find many employers who will allow you to bring a weapon to work, let alone, carry it on your person. And they have every right to prohibit you from doing so. You will never get your 2nd Amendment right to trump their property rights, unless you believe you have a constitutional precedent. If so, I'd like to hear it and then ask you if that precedent extends to other constitutional rights vs. private property?

Libertarians despise any laws which protect civil rights? Sounds like you are hanging out with skinheads and klanners....not Libertarians. Of course, Libertarian is used to describe a wide array of political beliefs- so much so that the word really has little meaning anymore. That aside, I agree that people certainly have the right to control who does or doesn't bring a firearm onto their private property. The property owner, under those circumstances, should recognize also that by doing so, they are assuming responsibility for their guests' safety. So....no, I don't argue that my constitutional right should supercede a person's right to be master of their private property.

Edited April 4, 2012 by xebec