sending money to his family (long)

[Jo&Si 9]

I can see T R O U B L E spelled in big and bold letters here, sister. He's just gonna take you on a guilt trip, and five years down the line, you're gonna be left wondering what the hell hit you, if not earlier! my thoughts to you? Run while you can!

I totally agree with you on this! Rlogan and Klaxi, you totally explain what I was trying to say in a previous post!

[Darnell 8,478]

Thanks Darnell, for the interesting perspective. I'm curious though - why do you suggest I talk to my dad? (I'm just wondering.)

I told my sister a bit about the issue the other day (before my husband and I talked about all this.) I typically try to avoid saying too much to family about our issues, as I don't want to bias their opinion of him... just as I don't want his family to turn against me because I have different cultural perspectives than they do. Thus I usually don't say much, though now and again a bit comes out. However, I have talked to a counselor/therapist about issues with my husband, as she is a neutral 3rd party. She herself is an American married to an Indian man who she has a good relationship with (though he is from a different part of India, and they met in the US). But still she has some understanding of relationship dynamics of being with someone who grew up in a different country.

Well, see- here's the thing.

Your husband has all of these 'typical' Indian Male things going on, which you have NO PERSPECTIVE ON, as you weren't raised in a family with typical INDIAN MALES.

OTOH, your father was. He knows all. He knows this behavior well - he grew out of it right after you were born. He's been growing out of it more, these 30 years.

IMO, HIS PERSPECTIVE (with all of the inputs I mentioned, not just sit and talk, but print and deliver) will be useful, after he reads all. He can advise you better than anyone else, as he's lived through this once already, once in his lifetime.

Then, there's that other bit, as well. Not only can your father advise you about your situation, but he can advise you on what to do for going forwards. In the end, usually it breaks down to the two fathers having a long conversation, and exposing all of the fallacies and problems that have arisen with the couple. This usually happens in a 'typical' Indian marriage, after the marriage, when things have gone awry...

So, don't call your father on this stuff. Print it all out, these 3 months of threads here at VJ, mail it to him via postal mail, with a cover letter asking him to read it all and prepare for a telephone conversation in a few weeks.

IMO, your father will need time to assimilate all, and put together his advice for you.

In the end, you may find (also) that your father will not want this fella in HIS family, until he straightens out and loses most of his 'Typical Indian Male' qualities. Your father has lost these, over the years - he knows all about it.

Good Luck !

[Marlon&Fallon 13]

Well, see- here's the thing.

Your husband has all of these 'typical' Indian Male things going on, which you have NO PERSPECTIVE ON, as you weren't raised in a family with typical INDIAN MALES.

OTOH, your father was. He knows all. He knows this behavior well - he grew out of it right after you were born. He's been growing out of it more, these 30 years.

IMO, HIS PERSPECTIVE (with all of the inputs I mentioned, not just sit and talk, but print and deliver) will be useful, after he reads all. He can advise you better than anyone else, as he's lived through this once already, once in his lifetime.

Then, there's that other bit, as well. Not only can your father advise you about your situation, but he can advise you on what to do for going forwards. In the end, usually it breaks down to the two fathers having a long conversation, and exposing all of the fallacies and problems that have arisen with the couple. This usually happens in a 'typical' Indian marriage, after the marriage, when things have gone awry...

So, don't call your father on this stuff. Print it all out, these 3 months of threads here at VJ, mail it to him via postal mail, with a cover letter asking him to read it all and prepare for a telephone conversation in a few weeks.

IMO, your father will need time to assimilate all, and put together his advice for you.

In the end, you may find (also) that your father will not want this fella in HIS family, until he straightens out and loses most of his 'Typical Indian Male' qualities. Your father has lost these, over the years - he knows all about it.

Good Luck !

I often heard it's not a good idea to involve your parents to certain degree in your marriage, as they may not always look at things objectively, and may be more likely to lean towards showing preference to their child. I've heard quite a few marriage counselors mentioned it too. Perhaps it's better to seek the help of an independent third party, preferable a counselor, as they will look at things from a neutral perspective.

It might be a good idea that she and her husband had some sessions with the counselor she was seeing, since she mentioned that the counselor was familiar with the Indian culture.

[Darnell 8,478]

That's one perspective, sure - but I'm sticking to mine.

[LIFE'SJOURNEY 970]

I often heard it's not a good idea to involve your parents to certain degree in your marriage, as they may not always look at things objectively, and may be more likely to lean towards showing preference to their child. I've heard quite a few marriage counselors mentioned it too. Perhaps it's better to seek the help of an independent third party, preferable a counselor, as they will look at things from a neutral perspective.

It might be a good idea that she and her husband had some sessions with the counselor she was seeing, since she mentioned that the counselor was familiar with the Indian culture.

AH AH, a typical Indian male nor will a typical Jamaican male seek the advise of a marriage counselor. Darnell advise is actual more in tune with how marital problems are re-solved within a typical Indian marriage. There are so many missing pieces to this conversation, such as it is all one sided. None of us really know the two individual that are involve, most of these posts are projecting how we would handle this situation if it was us. Which is not fair to either party involve, whereas the parents do know of their childrens flaws.

This individual could turn out to be the best caring and supportive husband, but in his view he feels he has an obligation to his parents. They just need to figure out where the obligations begin and end.

Edited April 1, 2012 by LIFE'SJOURNEY

[superpotsky 13]

I agree. Hah Try to live together and see what happens. He will support his family in India forever.

I'm really glad you have seen a counselor. Have you considered couples counselling? You could do an over the phone session!

Is it possible that he could come to the US for 1-6 months and you could try living together and see a counsellor then?

Trying to live together might put things into perspective for your husband and or it might prove that your differences are too great to overcome or that you can work through things.

The problem is, once he is here through the CR-1, you could be somewhat "trapped" on the hook financially or stuck in an unhealthy relationship.

[Xanax 349]

I agree. Hah Try to live together and see what happens. He will support his family in India forever.

Thanks for agreeing with me

[VanessaTony 3,567]

How are things now? Any updates?

[rkk1 34]

Hey! Thanks so much for checking on me. I have discussed some of these issues with my husband, and I actually went to my counselor today and talked with her about this issue (will get to that in a min).

As far as my husband goes, there hasn't been much progress with him. He was initially still trying to tell me that I should get them a car with $1,000 of the $5,000 or so (estimated) money that I'd get back from filing the joint tax return. He says that without his efforts to get his passport Apostilled, I wouldn't have been able to apply to file joint taxes, and thus am only getting this $5k because of him. Therefore, he thinks it fair to ask for $1k for a car for him and his family. As far as his other points about sending money to his family and his family staying with us for extended visits... he says that he has to share the burden with his brother as they are the only 2 children of their parents. He says he can't expect his brother to carry all of their parents expenses, nor would it be fair if their parents are only living with the brother all year and not him (although technically, I don't see it that way as it is him and his brother who were the ones who never moved out of their parents house, as is common in Indian culture). He says it's not equality when I get to control (???) 95% of his income and he can't even send his parents 5% of what he makes. He also says that he would want his parents to live with us for some months at a time, as it's not really fair that I get to see my parents, sister, aunts and uncles and cousins (who all live in the same city as me) on a regular basis while he's torn from his family. So he's sticking to his points. Although I can understand his frustration to some degree, I think he should have discussed all this with me before marriage so I had the opportunity to make more informed decisions.

I discussed all the above points with my counselor today. Since the beginning she has always been the one to encourage me to give my husband a chance, even when we were getting to know each other in the early stages. However, she has been a bit disappointed in the last several months as she admits he does seem to act immature from time to time. She doesn't think he's a bad guy as she understands the cultural issues better (having been through some of these issues with her own husband. She did not have to deal with the immigration issues with her husband, however, as he was already here when she married him.) She does think, however, that my husband is being manipulative with me, and that I need to put my foot down with him and be firm about what I will agree to or not. She hopes that he is just being unrealistic right now and that once he comes here and sees how much things really cost, then he will realize that we just don't have the money as he doesn't realize right now how much the cost of living in the US is different than the cost of living in India.

When she and her husband initially married (about 15 years ago) he used to send monthly amounts back home. His family even used to expect the money. However, after they had their daughter, it was just not possible, and now they only send money to his family if there are emergencies, or if they happen to have the extra money available... but they do not send money if there isn't extra. She told me that she and her husband have some married couple friends (of Indian background) who are both working professionals, and they typically send about $250-500 per month to their families at home. HOWEVER, these couples are earning about $300,000-500,000 per year as a family and have enough to send their kids to private schools. She thinks its very impractical for us to even think about this at this stage of our lives. Currently my parents help me out often with money and gifts (I hardly ask for them for it, but they know I'm drowning in loans and give me this willingly). But once my husband is living with me as a married couple, she says it would improper to accept any such handouts from them. So it would be indecent for us to take money from my folks (who are working incredibly hard to make money) while at the same time giving money to his parents (who aren't working outside the home). She thinks my husband is being financially irresponsible with asking for a car, etc, when I have so much in loans and that he needs to think of what is best for OUR future as a couple. She also says I should not be manipulated when my husband makes those pouty comments about all the sacrifices he's making to come here, and how that means we need to share his parents for half the time and share half their cost with his brother. She says that my husband made the choice to marry an American girl with his eyes wide open; he knew their would be sacrifices to coming to live in the US, and that if he wasn't willing to make those sacrifices then he should have married an Indian girl from India instead. Furthermore, all the comments about his parents not having enough eat without our money is manipulative, as his dad and brother would be able to make ends meet if the need arises (people are able to act differently when in a state of necessity). If they were going to be homeless and didn't have us to depend on, it's obvious the dad would get a job instead of not working.

After talking with her, there are a few things I've thought that I want to put my foot down on, though I think my husband will be very peeved about this.

1. I'm not okay with giving money to my husband's parents, unless my husband's father chooses to work outside the home. He's only in his mid-50s. I won't ask his mom to work as she's always been a housewife (despite having a master's degree). But his dad and brother should be able to make ends meet (with us helping out in emergencies only, or giving them a monthly stipend ONLY when we are fully able to have enough for our own expenses and savings. But there will be months when us sending them money is not a possibility as we will have our own kids to raise, and will other expenses, so they have to use the money wisely and budget their own money well so that they can make ends meet even without our contribution.) Giving money to his parents should NOT be at the costs of us not being able to save for the future, or having to ask MY parents to bail us out financially, or me having to request additional higher-interest loans to manage the expenses. That's just not okay. I realize that his dad is an unskilled laborer who doesn't make much but someday if I have anything to give, I'd give it far more willingly if I knew they were at least trying to help themselves. I don't care if his dad works in a clothing shop or at a restaurant if that's what he is able to do. But I would mind giving money to someone who is only mid-50s and can work but chooses not to. My husband has not been transparent or forthcoming with me about what his dad's plans are about working again or not, and I find my husband's silence (and changing the topic) to be rather disturbing.

2. I'm not okay with this concept of equality between me and his parents. Yes, his parents raised him, and most likely he loves them more than he loves me. But if he still isn't willing to put me and our marriage at the top of his priority list, then there really isn't any marriage.

There is a good chance that setting such boundaries with him will come at the cost of our marriage. I am sad, and I'm scared about putting my foot down with him, as I genuinely care about him and want to stay married. But I realize that a life of manipulation is no life either... and unless my husband is willing to grow up and put our marriage first, then there really isn't anything between us to try to save.

Edited April 6, 2012 by rkk1

[rkk1 34]

By the way, one other really important thing that I discussed today with my counselor is that my husband and I need to avoid this drama for the next 3 months, as I have my national medical board exams this summer and need to do really well on that. This has major implications on my career and what field I choose to specialize in as a doctor (based on my scores on the national exams). All this drama between him and I is just distracting me academically. Yes, he and I have a lot to talk about still but a lot of this can wait. My counselor was just recommending me to tell him (if he brings these issues up) what I've agreed to, and to put my foot down about allowing anything else. So I'm hoping that there won't be too much more drama with him the next few months until I take care of clearing my exams first. Once I get done with my exams, I'll be more willing to have extended discussions with him (if he wants to - though I will hopefully be firm and not let myself get manipulated). I've ordered a book from Amazon that Rlogan recommended on the topic of dealing with manipulation, so I will read it this summer after my exams are over.

Edited April 6, 2012 by rkk1

[VanessaTony 3,567]

By the way, one other really important thing that I discussed today with my counselor is that my husband and I need to avoid this drama for the next 3 months, as I have my national medical board exams this summer and need to do really well on that. This has major implications on my career and what field I choose to specialize in as a doctor (based on my scores on the national exams). All this drama between him and I is just distracting me academically. Yes, he and I have a lot to talk about still but a lot of this can wait. My counselor was just recommending me to tell him (if he brings these issues up) what I've agreed to, and to put my foot down about allowing anything else. So I'm hoping that there won't be too much more drama with him the next few months until I take care of clearing my exams first. Once I get done with my exams, I'll be more willing to have extended discussions with him (if he wants to - though I will hopefully be firm and not let myself get manipulated). I've ordered a book from Amazon that Rlogan recommended on the topic of dealing with manipulation, so I will read it this summer after my exams are over.

Changed his tune AGAIN on the car huh? Was $2K then $1K then $420 and now it's $1K again. I mentioned before about how he didn't get his passport done to help you, you mentioned there'd be "extra money" if he did and he took that to mean he was in for a nice bonus if he got it done and now here he is expecting it.

That sounds good. Like a good idea to wait and get your stuff done and then deal with it all (but I doubt it will happen honestly as you can't really stop your brain from thinking about these things...).

One thing I feel I should mention (and please ignore me if you wish) is immigration. I think it would be best to discuss with him that until your exams etc are over you won't be dealing with immigration. That if anything needs to be done or completed it can wait until AFTER your exams are done. I'm not entirely sure if this is possible in the CR-1 process, to delay, but I think it would be good to see: 1. What his reaction is to waiting longer 2. How you feel once you have a little less pressure on your shoulders. I'm sure it's really hard right now to think about all this ####### AND try and study. It's hard to stop and make decisions (sometimes hard ones) when you're worried about getting assignments done, and studying for exams.

Just an idea anyway. I really don't think he's ready to immigrate yet.. he's got a lot of thinking to do about what his expectations are, and what reality really is. As well as giving him time to get his brother up to speed and stop spending any money he's earning on his family to get them prepared to deal without him.

i wish you luck in this situation and exams

[SapphireDreams 71]

rkk1 - I just spent time reading through this entire post and I just wanted to tell you that I admire you for recognizing that you have a big issue here and for speaking to a counsellor about everything. She sounds like a great sounding board and neutral person who understands where you are coming from.

I wanted to say that I can see a pattern with your posts. For the most part, you appear to be very storng and level headed. You can see that your husband is doing and saying things that are not sitting well with you. You doa really good job of going back to him with your concerns it sounds like and then you have a conversation with you and he manipulates you and you come back and make all kinds of excuses for him (well he makes the excuses but you know what I mean).

It sounds like deep down you know what your true feelings are and you need to trust and listen to your intuition and try to prevent this turning into a complete nightmare of a situation.

I understand the cultural side of things too. Are you 100% confident that your husband truly understands the burden of life in America. He might say he does, but has he ever even been to the US for a visit? Along with all of these financial issues that I think will always plague you, I just think that he's in for a HUGE culture shock and reality check when he gets there and once he realizes how hard life is going to be in the US while you get established, while he finds a job etc, he's not going to be able to deal with it and things are just not going to go well at all.

Also - this is somewhat related, but slightly off topic... you might want to consider doing your residency in a larger city, at my husband's hospital residents start at $60,000 and this is in Brooklyn, NY. That's more than your estimate of $40,000. Living expenses might be more I suppose, but something to consider.

[Darnell 8,478]

when you get there, later on this year, suggest you 'go slow' at NVC. NVC gives you a year to complete the document intake process - and I think you need that extra year (rather, he needs that extra year for his new brainwashing to be complete)

[aaydrian 479]

1)Does your husband pay taxes in the US? How dare he say he's entilled to any monetary gain that you recieved from your taxes as a married woman? Smh.

2)Does his father have amputated legs/paralysed from the waist down? No? Then he can ride a motocycle to his job like every other hard working man in India that doesn't have a car.

3)How is coming to America putting more burden on his brother? Is the money he's sending suppose to comfort his brother and parents in his absence? It seems like you're their $640 million lotto ticket. I'm sure if he's sending the same amount of US$ equivalent to his parents as he did when in India there won't be any problem.

4)How does he feel about cancelling your petition and you moving to India permanently? He knew damn well that with an American wife there was a huge possibilty that you would live close to your family and he away from his (so he should stop the BS esp when he agreed with the 1 month max parental visitation).

Your husband with his illusions of America and the luxury and opulence of a doctor-lawyer pair sees figures like '$300,000-500,000 per year as a family' and gets a monetary orgasm at the possibilities. I wish you could send him a reality check in a bottle because you as a couple will not be 'in the dough' until you hit your 40s not to mention if you factor in children.

As your counselor said, put your feet down. Focus on your studies and whatever carrer decisions you need to make. Hold off puuting in any other documents for the CR-1 until you know exactly (may need to discuss any more potential issues that will come up) what is going to happen hence forth.

Good luck on your exams.

[Laser1 63]

One thing to keep in mind when putting your foot down is that he may intend to agree, but increase his demands later when your situation improves. It would be a good idea to address how things will be long-term too.