sending money to his family (long)

[Laveau 67]

I'm trying to see Peter Pan's side but rkk1's husband response to not getting money for a car...

I'm sorry I have no advice to offer you, rkk1, but what TBone and Nina posted makes the most sense to me.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Someone else's post says it better but the basis is this - he married you to better his life, that is all.

He gets upset about the dowry because he "married up" and has nothing to show for it, yet. The car would be his "see here's my dowry".

He didn't go fix his passport to help YOU, he did it to help himself... as you can see he's now demanding a portion of the return.

Regarding the debt.. I understand your husband feeling like this is YOUR debt and not his.. and here's why: My ex would have had over $250K in student loan debt (to his parents) by the time he finished med school (international student so much higher fees). When he told me he expected to send some of OUR income to pay back his parents I was ticked. I wasn't told about this before we got together and he expected to lower OUR income amount probably making me pay more of the house bills? Don't get me wrong, that debt needed to be paid but that's not a "household expense" in my opinion. It was "HIS expense" and he was still supposed to pay his share of bills. I shouldn't have had to "lose out" just because he had this insane debt (he didn't work while doing schooling). I don't think I need to tell you that our relationship ended with a LOT of anger and bitterness on my part toward him. He was lazy and did basically nothing around the house basically treating me like his mother. He was also emotionally abusive. He would say one thing then change his mind and refuse to admit he ever said any different. He is/was Indian (though raised in Malaysia).

Here's the "better relationship" difference. My husband also has student loan debt. It didn't even enter my head to challenge the fact that needs to be paid back and that "our money" would be used... this shows me the VAST differences in this relationship and my prior one (or maybe I've just grown ). He started schooling while we were dating and finished it a month before we were married. My husband pays the bills (well technically I do using his money ) and I'm presently not earning anything (wish that was different).

Yes it's harder to divorce than to break up with a boyfriend but if you would break up with a boyfriend over this why is a husband any different? You admit you were rushed into marrying... probably because he knew you weren't too interested in divorce and he wanted to "lock you in" before you got to know him too well. So now here you are talking about the important things you would have as a boyfriend and he's still trying to deflect until he's here. Once he's in the US you can't make him leave the country so he'll tell you exactly what he thinks/demands. He's got what he wanted out of you and can leave you to your own debt repayments.. and I'm sorry but I can basically predict that's what's going to happen. He's showing all the classic signs.

He will bring his parents to stay for a long period because you can't stop him. He will stay in the apartment because as your spouse you can't kick him out (once he's moved in) and you'd be on the lease so dropping lease would affect you badly. He will send however much of his income home as he wants because you can't stop him and he'll be unlikely to give you any share at all because again, he doesn't HAVE to. If he doesn't agree to you can't make him.

He's already shown that your opinion doesn't mean anything to him. He's already shown he holds grudges. He's already TOLD you what he plans to do with HIS money. He's shown you what he does when he doesn't get his way. He'll either do it anyway, or pout and cry like a child.

I'm sorry but I don't see this ending well. He hasn't shown any willingness to listen to your suggestions. You've asked him to do a budget and he doesn't want to. He's not interested in your life together here, because I doubt he'll hang around very long. First confrontation and he'll be gone to a friends house you probably weren't aware he knew.

**Edit - money issues are the #1 cause of divorce. Money is a BIG deal in a relationship. I'm not trying to be rude. Reading your posts you've done the majority of things anyone could suggest and he's just not interested. THAT big of a difference is just too hard to overcome... in my opinion anyway.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Vanessa&Tony

[Golden Gate 530]

Many people have told you clearly how they see the situation, and given good feedback.

One thing I can say is that one of the traits of an abusive person is pushing another person to do something against their better judgement (pushing you to get married). The fact that you just met last summer and you are already married is really surprising to me as a fellow American. It might be the Indian culture to marry quickly. However, to not know the person that long and to get married is different than knowing the family a long time and having an arranged married that is somewhat quick.

One thing I can suggest to you about your loans - some hospitals will take on your debt if you agree to a long-term contract with them. My brother was relieved of his medical school debt by working for a hospital for five years.

My husband told me a Moroccan joke: There was a couple who wanted to buy a cow. They hadn't purchased it yet, but they went to the barn where the cows were, and they picked one and decided to tie it so it couldn't get away. The wife wanted to place the twist anchor stake in one part of the ground, but the husband wanted to place it elsewhere, and they couldn't agree. The husband got so angry he pulled the stake up and threw it and killed his wife. Rather dramatic story, but I think you can get the point. Your husband has all these plans for his life without your mutual agreement - to have his parents stay for an extended time, his brother to come to study, to get them a car, to give a lot of his income (which he doesn't even have yet) to them. All of these things planned and he isn't even here yet. I also think it is very coincidental that his father quit his job just as you were married.

[Miss M 54]

And my 2 cents worth:

If he is affected by friends making fun of him not having a received a dowry, how is he going to handle possibly being unemployed for a while in the US, and having nothing to show for his move? I am sure that his friends (and perhaps his family) have an expectation that his move to the US will result in access to more opportunities, and therefore more money; and since he is the eldest son and primary breadwinner, they may expect to see an immediate improvement in his family's material wealth. Is he prepared to handle this in a mature and adult way or will he just feel short changed because he's already planning to send money back home and may have built up an expectation already?

Have you discussed at all what would happen if he struggled to find a job? Would his family still expect to visit and would they still expect money from him (or you as a couple?)

[amyandjorge 76]

Some really good reponses to this one.

Looks like it is time to face the music, you married a first born Indian son (regardless of whether he is immature, manipulative, etc as other members have suggested). He will financially support his family from wherever he is and try to keep them as close to him as much as he can. Some might consider that admirable.

Personally, I just accepted the fact that my husband's parents don't have jobs, and of course he wants to send them tons of money. Luckily for me, our finances/future are a priority for him.

Optimistically, your husband will have a cold water shock when he arrives, realize how much he loves you and put his family on the backburner (temporarily). But that is best case scenario.

[Enigma11561 336]

This situation is going to get a LOT worse.Most of us can see the forest through the trees. The OP is just now beginning to see him for what he is but her heart still will not let her go.Difficult, but many have done it before. It is called...goodby.

OP...you are a bright, intelligent, and hard working person. You deserve better than this. You are selling yourself way too short. Be more confidant in yourself.

[bvpshenvalley 0]

Ok,I have to reply based on this one thread (I don't know the whole story)

I am married to a dirt-poor Peruvian. I have dealt with these same exact issues as you describe in this thread.

When I met my husband, he asked me for money, an ipod, and a computer. I said no to all of these issues. If he didn't like it he could leave (we weren't married at the time).

Then we got married (before we even lived together and after 10 months of courting online and only a few visits) to get him a visa to Costa Rica. I was working, he wasn't. His mom called to ask him for $100 (which is like half of a months income for him in Peru). I realized that he had no money and he cooked and cleaned, so I gave it to him (and yes, I think he was entitled to that and more).

We got to Peru. I was working and he was too. I told him to save his money so that he would have something to study with. He didn't (okay he doesn't manage money well). Well we got another call from the family asking for $200 (a whole months salary). I told him that we weren't a bank, that he should not be the only one contributing to the family (he is the youngest of 7), and that I would be happy to contribute if everyone else contributed their fair share (like 20 soles to my 200). Well, he had to tell them that they had to wait for the money because he didn't have it (he didn't of his and mine was going towards trying to get pregnant). Well, they haven't asked for money since.

He has a cousin that is married to a gringo. She totally gets everything she wants. When he is around her he makes mention that basically I should be giving him more. I told him that I wasn't a bank and I need that money because things are more expensive in the US.

Now I am in the US. I bought him a house and a motortaxi so he could work and pay for food until I can get my residency to file for his visa through the consulate. He didn't work like an American and if he did bring money home, I didn't know what he brought in and what was going out(no making financial decisions there). So I had to leave him and my daughter there apart from me. I actually want him to stay home with her in the US, but time will tell if this the dream of all of us.

Moral of the story is that many people think that coming to the US (or marrying a Gringo) is like winning the lottery. They don't realize how expensive it is to live here and that we work hard or even harder than they do to get there (the people in my husband's culture only work when they need the money--no wonder they don't get anywhere). Also, we American women are way different than alot of the women in most countries. The women where my husband is from don't have the choices that I do and they have to go with the flow. I don't so I like to make my say.

My advice: your husband needs a reality check. Maybe coming to the US and living within your means will do this to him. Of course, after you get him a visa you are financially responsible for him. Also, your dreams seem different. He seems to want to better himself and his family. He wants his family to "visit" for six months every year--that is only because that is the longest you can stay on a visitor visa. If you could stay longer, I am sure they would visit for more than 6 months. I suggest you do what I do and nip things in the bud early. It is better to deal with it now than later. Don't be too nice as he needs to realize that American women are different (but also sometimes there is a plus to going with the flow). Set an amount you can deal with for him to help his family out and don't go over that. Also, realize that the loans are yours and you probably should not plan on him to pay them back for you. Also, it was a good suggestion to work out the numbers with him.

Good luck.

[bbz 2]

Hi OP I never read your other threads but based on what you said here I can imagine it must be very stressful to be carrying a growing 200k loan, still going to school, not being physically together with your husband, and on top of that not sharing the same financial views as him. My heart goes out to you and I genuinely hope things work out for your family.

Here are some of my thoughts..I didn't read everybody's posts yet so if there's any repetition or mistake I apologize in advance.

1. If "talking things out" leads to escalating fights and unproductive arguments, maybe you could try communicating in writing. By "unproductive" I mean guilt-tripping, generalizing, recalling previous grudges, name calling, etc. Most unproductive is when a difference in opinion gets interpreted as a reflection of one's personality, i.e. becomes a personal attack. Writing can help us stick to the topic, sort out our thoughts, make it easier to see our own irrationality, be less inclined to burst out things we might later regret saying, and eliminate the "tone of voice" factor which can make our message sound worse in the other person's ears when we're upset.

2. Better yet, list things out. Since the disagreements revolve around your financial priorities, maybe each of you can make 2 lists: a list of your priorities and a list of what you think are his priorities. Compare them, highlight your common goals, and focus on one discrepancy at a time. You're in med school and your husband went to law school. I'm sure you two got more than enough smarts to sort this out.

3. When it comes to family members, accept accept and accept how they are. No point wondering why his dad or brother is not working more, for example, because what can you accomplish by finding the answer? Knowing "why" won't change them. In fact, speaking from experience, getting any answer would just bother you even more since it is the fact that they're not working more that does not meet your expectation, and any justification for that fact just adds to the annoyance. Let them be. Whether your husband's family expects your husband to send money or not should not be your concern. The question is whether and how much your husband is expecting to send money to them, on which hopefully you and your husband will come to an agreement.

4. I disagree with comments suggesting anyone to ditch a marriage. Only the two of you know and can figure out what works and what doesn't. The rest of us ain't there for your happy times or bad times, who are we to be telling you to stay or ditch. Best of luck to you

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

I don't understand why the two of you didn't discuss your "issues" when you were last together.

It's so much better to hash things out face to face.

[Marlon&Fallon 13]

Hi OP I never read your other threads but based on what you said here I can imagine it must be very stressful to be carrying a growing 200k loan, still going to school, not being physically together with your husband, and on top of that not sharing the same financial views as him. My heart goes out to you and I genuinely hope things work out for your family.

Here are some of my thoughts..I didn't read everybody's posts yet so if there's any repetition or mistake I apologize in advance.

1. If "talking things out" leads to escalating fights and unproductive arguments, maybe you could try communicating in writing. By "unproductive" I mean guilt-tripping, generalizing, recalling previous grudges, name calling, etc. Most unproductive is when a difference in opinion gets interpreted as a reflection of one's personality, i.e. becomes a personal attack. Writing can help us stick to the topic, sort out our thoughts, make it easier to see our own irrationality, be less inclined to burst out things we might later regret saying, and eliminate the "tone of voice" factor which can make our message sound worse in the other person's ears when we're upset.

2. Better yet, list things out. Since the disagreements revolve around your financial priorities, maybe each of you can make 2 lists: a list of your priorities and a list of what you think are his priorities. Compare them, highlight your common goals, and focus on one discrepancy at a time. You're in med school and your husband went to law school. I'm sure you two got more than enough smarts to sort this out.

3. When it comes to family members, accept accept and accept how they are. No point wondering why his dad or brother is not working more, for example, because what can you accomplish by finding the answer? Knowing "why" won't change them. In fact, speaking from experience, getting any answer would just bother you even more since it is the fact that they're not working more that does not meet your expectation, and any justification for that fact just adds to the annoyance. Let them be. Whether your husband's family expects your husband to send money or not should not be your concern. The question is whether and how much your husband is expecting to send money to them, on which hopefully you and your husband will come to an agreement.

4. I disagree with comments suggesting anyone to ditch a marriage. Only the two of you know and can figure out what works and what doesn't. The rest of us ain't there for your happy times or bad times, who are we to be telling you to stay or ditch. Best of luck to you

This is the kind of balance I was referring to in my earlier post. There were some others also. I was in no way trying to stick up for the husband as some may have thought. I was just suggesting that posts should be more leaning towards helping the OP in finding a resolution, than trying to convince her she should get out of the marriage. I agree completely with the above post.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Marlon&Fallon

[Flames9_RN 358]

Quite often when 1 is on visits--it is more just fun, as its usually for such a short duration. I will put it very simple-RUN RUN RUN while you can!! I think you know the reasons why! Love can blind you at time--and not in a good way! Communication is a HUGE thing in a strong relationship--and it appears he doesn't want any of that---only going to get worse once he is actually in the USA!!! Good luck. Easy decision for us to make, not so easy for you, but doing the right thing is not always easy!!

Edited March 31, 2012 by Flames9_RN

[Jo&Si 9]

Quite often when 1 is on visits--it is more just fun, as its usually for such a short duration. I will put it very simple-RUN RUN RUN while you can!! I think you know the reasons why! Love can blind you at time--and not in a good way! Communication is a HUGE thing in a strong relationship--and it appears he doesn't want any of that---only going to get worse once he is actually in the USA!!! Good luck. Easy decision for us to make, not so easy for you, but doing the right thing is not always easy!!

I totally agree with Flames9_RN, Vanessa&Tony and all other ones who told you about the red flags...

I have experienced that kind of relationship. I will be 50 in few days. I spent 20 years of my life in a insane relationship. I can tell you, it will only get worse (hope and wish I could be wrong)...Manipulative men are always very kind at the beginning of a relationship but when they get you hook...They show their real personality... Your husband and you are not living together yet, he already starts to show his bad side...I am scared for you...

You don't know that man really! You talked online, visits few weeks... You never know really someone until you live with him in my opinion.

A lot of people here told you about the red flags...I have read all the posts tonight and I saw the red flags too...

I am really sad for you. You seem to be a real nice and smart person. I think you are really reasonable with your financial thinking. He should put you first not his family.

I left my family behind to move to USA. I have 2 daughters and a cute grand-son. I put my husband first in my life! It's the way it should be.

I know some people will tell you that we should not tell you what to do and they are probably right...but reading all have been reading tonight the only thing I can say is like Flame9_RN: RUN RUN RUN WHILE YOU CAN!

My prayers are with you!

P.S. English is not my native language so hope I didn't make too many mistakes

[bbz 2]

This is the kind of balance I was referring to in my earlier post. There were some others also. I was in no way trying to stick up for the husband as some may have thought. I was just suggesting that posts should be more leaning towards helping the OP in finding a resolution, than trying to convince her she should get out of the marriage. I agree completely with the above post.

Hmmm I read some of her previous posts and it seems like my suggestions on communication might not apply very well. In some previous posts she seemed to already have decided that certain differences between her husband and herself cannot be reconciled.

I still disagree with trying to convince anyone to get out of the marriage. Then again people pick and choose advice that they find suitable. Good luck.

[rkk1 34]

Hi all, thank you so much for your PHENOMENAL replies! I truly appreciate it.

I do have to say that Nina's advice was so totally spot on to my feelings... wow, you nailed what I was thinking. The rest of people's advice has been super helpful as well. I was having trouble properly articulating what was bothering me about our relationship (hence all my rambling), and you precisely gave me the words I needed to express myself.

By the way, I'm not totally opposed to divorce in all situations. There is a place for that. While I'm hoping that things can be discussed, if we are not able to find solutions, then that may be the only unfortunate option at the end. I'm not oblivious to the problems... Nina strongly put to words my feelings and why I've been so frustrated. I know there are big problems that we either need to work out or we need to part ways.

Edited March 31, 2012 by rkk1

[rkk1 34]

My husband called me this evening. I was not very open to chatting, and kept the call very short. I had no desire to talk to him as I needed time apart. So I told him I was hurt and not interested in talking right then and I got off the phone. He was a bit stung and called me back a few minutes later. I was very hardened at first, but we ended up talking. He'd talk to me for 20 minutes, then he had to go teach a student, then he'd call me back again as soon as the person left. So we've talked over an hour at this point. Not everything has been discussed yet, but I've shared several points with him. He is still defending himself instead of listening to me as he feels I've misunderstood most of it (though I disagree). He says:

1a. He felt offended when I asked him if he married me to give his parents a better life, as that's not the case. He married for love. He said that if he married for money then he wouldn't have come to the US as the Indian economy is growing much faster than the US economy and he had no reason to jump into a 'sinking ship'. He also said that his business is flourishing and he is making much more money nowdays. If it wasn't for love, why would he come to the US and leave his family to start afresh into a wide unknown in a country facing a recession, where he might have to look for a job for months? He also discussed how his degrees wouldn't transfer and he have to go back to school here. In his mind, these 3 reasons solidify that he is only coming for his love for me and nothing more.

1b. Furthermore, he says that he didn't get involved with me for monetary reasons as his dad was still working when we started communicating. Thus he wasn't fully expecting his dad to stop working and that he (my husband) would have to be the primary breadwinner.

2. He says he never cried because he wanted dowry from me, but rather because he felt hurt by one particular friend's words, as that friend was using vulgar language about my husband not getting dowry from us. He said he didn't even talk to that friend for 2 weeks afterwards, though they've recently started chatting again.

3. He says that he was not expecting me to send him money for the car, as he was willing to save up for it himself. He was just hoping that if I was willing to give him $470 then he could put that towards the car and just pay the visa fee himself 6 months later when it would be due.

4. He says that he wants to send at least 3-5% of his income to his family once he comes here (this was just some number he threw out, as he hadn't specifically thought about how much it would be). He says that he wouldn't use my loans to pay his family's expenses, but it would only be after he gets a job himself. He says it's not fair to expect his brother to pay all of his parents' expenses as he needs to do his share as well. He isn't planning to give his family a super high amount of money, nor even as much as he is currently making in his business (now about 30k rupees per month, which is double what he was earning a few months ago). He simply wants to give them slightly more than subsistence level.... maybe something like 15,000 rupees a month or so (which is $300, although this was another number just thrown out on the spot and not specifically discussed or contemplated).

5. As far as loans go, he said it is not my loans but OUR loans. He fully plans to help me pay back the loans but he doesn't understand why he should have to pay 40%. He doesn't understand why we can't put 30% of our income towards loans or so per month. He says even if we have to pay more interest this way to him, it is more important to him to know that his family has food on the table and are not going hungry.

6. I asked him why his family would go hungry when they had fully capable members of the family to work. At first he was saying that his brother doesn't make much and he didn't know what to do about that as he couldn't force his brother to work more when his brother was already working (his brother makes something like 9,000 rupees per month). He says that his dad is uneducated and even if his dad finds a job that he'd hardly get paid anything much (no more than 4,000 per month). I told him that we need to help enable them to be more self-sufficient rather than expecting money from us. He was offended by my comment about his dad not working, as he pointed out. After we talked further about this, he decided that he would attempt to help train his brother so that his brother could take on a greater portion of my husband's current work (which has far more financial potential) after he leaves. He didn't know if his brother would be able to do this, but he'd encourage the brother to do so to increase the family income.

7. My husband didn't get the point about not comparing our lifestyles. He was still saying that if I allow my dad to buy me gifts then he should also be allowed to send his family money.

Anyway, all this is making my head hurt. I don't know if I'm being manipulated or even what to think right now as my head was spinning. We still have lots of points to discuss and I can post more of that later. I'm not going to call him as I'm busy studying for exams, and he can call if he wants to talk further.

Edited March 31, 2012 by rkk1