Fracking likely caused series of Ohio quakes, officials say

[mawilson 2,133]

Actually, what's odd is the incessant support of the fossil fuel industry by ordinary citizens who willingly submit themselves as minions to an industry whose dominance over energy production is nearing its end.

It's not odd at all. People want cheap energy. As cheap as possible. When solar becomes cheap, people will embrace solar.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

We are talking about different technologies here at the same time. Does government force utilities to buy more costly green energy?Has government been forcing companies to buy carbon credits? The list goes on.

When government by law forces compliance then they are mandating.

My understanding of these laws (the Renewable Energy Certificate Program) is that its up to the individual states whether they enter the program.

[luckytxn 2,265]

My understanding of these laws (the Renewable Energy Certificate Program) is that its up to the individual states whether they enter the program.

So the laws forcing utilities to purchase green energy and buy certificates is a mandate? I am sure you noticed I posted government and didn't single out the Feds. States are in collusion. The Feds do 'encourage' the states.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

So the laws forcing utilities to purchase green energy and buy certificates is a mandate? I am sure you noticed I posted government and didn't single out the Feds. States are in collusion. The Feds do 'encourage' the states.

Sorry in your previous post you mentioned Feds, I was still operating in that frame of mind. Anyway, sure its a state mandate.

[luckytxn 2,265]

Sorry in your previous post you mentioned Feds, I was still operating in that frame of mind. Anyway, sure its a state mandate.

Yes we have been jumping around alternatives and each means differences. And I said Governments to mean both state and Feds so was not clear.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Name one government business that doesn't have their head up their #######.

The US Army?

[luckytxn 2,265]

It's not odd at all. People want cheap energy. As cheap as possible. When solar becomes cheap, people will embrace solar.

That hits the nail on the head.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If people were that frugal about spending money on energy, then they would be doing everything they possibly could to conserve, but they don't. We are energy gluttons. We want the 59 cent cheeseburger at McDonald's just so we can eat a couple of dozen in one sitting. We buy gas guzzlers but download special smart phone apps that locate the cheapest gas stations and will drive the extra mile to save that extra 2 cents per gallon. Nucking futs.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

The US Army?

You ever see the army try to build something? It's like the Walt Disney characters gone bad.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

You ever see the army try to build something? It's like the Walt Disney characters gone bad.

Yes. I was a US Army Engineering Officer. I was the lead engineer on several projects.

Don't be bad mouthing our troops!

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Yes. I was a US Army Engineering Officer. I was the lead engineer on several projects.

Don't be bad mouthing our troops!

If that's the case then you know exactly what I'm saying. Can you actually compare the army to a private contractor? It's no comparison. The army...bless their souls, are populated by the brain dead for the most part when it comes to being efficient. I was in the army and Iv'e done jobs on military bases with the iron workers and pipe fitters. I wouldn't let the army build me a dog house if my life depended on it.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

If that's the case then you know exactly what I'm saying. Can you actually compare the army to a private contractor? It's no comparison. The army...bless their souls, are populated by the brain dead for the most part when it comes to being efficient. I was in the army and Iv'e done jobs on military bases with the iron workers and pipe fitters. I wouldn't let the army build me a dog house if my life depended on it.

Reported for bad mouthing our troops!

[Leatherneck 693]

It's always amusing to hear Ayn Randian philosophy played out into people's own political ideology. Using the coded word 'forced' is classic Libertarian fanboi talk. It implies a sense of victimhood by the anarcho-capitalists who believe that somehow if government would just 'get off our backs' we'd have a thriving economy right now. It's beyond absurd because it completely ignores the facts and reality. And more amusing that you referred to all these supposed examples to prove, in your mind at least, that free market picks the winners, and winners = best. The irony in your argument is that more often than not, government plays a key role in whether a new technology thrives or not.

It's equally amusing to see Karl Marx's failed philosophy in the musings of his malcontents, the statist just can't help it -- expressing their desire and tendencies to exert control over every aspect of life through the 'government knows best ideology.' I know you find it difficult that millions of individuals would have the audacity to make millions of decisions about what products/services work best for them with no interference from government. The examples were of products that did what people wanted at a price they were willing to pay. The quip "...that free market picks the winners, and winners = best." Is certainly not my position, however, it's your attempt to belittle the fact the free market determines "winners" based on what's best for the millions of individuals making those decisions.

The internet is a perfect example, which came about through government research. I'll bet you didn't know that little tidbit of information, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to use it as an example of a free market choosing its own winners and loser. But that's okay, lets move on to your list.

Could the highlighted text be an example of the statist attempt to exhibit a sense of superior intellect? No surprise you missed the big picture, produce a product that will do what people want at a price they are willing to pay -- they will buy it and most folks could care less as to who develops a technology. It is factual the prototype networking concept was created by scientist working for DARPA and DARPA funded research at universities for the benefit of the DOD, but damn it, those evil capitalist saw the potential for commercialization of the technology and wanted in on the action. I know it kills you, but the internet infrastructure we have today is the result of those evil capitalist.

My bigger point in the comparison between email vs snail mail, which you missed, the internet as a service offered to the free market has put snail mail in a serious headlock.

Cell phone technology happened in large part from government research (look it up)

In large part it was...drum roll -- the know-it-all geniuses in government delayed the development of private sector research in the development of cell technology. "In 1947, AT&T proposed that the FCC allocate a large number of radio-spectrum frequencies so that widespread mobile telephone service would become feasible and AT&T would have a incentive to research the new technology. The FCC decided to limit the amount of frequencies available in 1947, the limits made only twenty-three phone conversations possible simultaneously (the genius of bureaucrats) in the same service area - not a market incentive for research." "The FCC reconsidered its position in 1968, stating "if the technology to build a better mobile service works, we will increase the frequencies allocation, freeing the airwaves for more mobile phones." Surely you didn't want to reveal that little nugget as an example how government is more likely to get in the way -- that would fly in the face of your 'government as the savior' for all that ails the individual.

DVD vs VHS - while there was no significant government involvement, the Betamax format was far superior to VHS when that technology first came about. VHS 'won' the market battle because Sony refused to allow any other manufacturers to use their format. So there's a perfect example of the market NOT picking the best as the winner.

You're not telling the whole story here -- no surprise! Sony claimed that licensing issues with other companies slowed the growth of Beta -- that's a rather weak argument, considering Beta dominated the market early on. VHS thrashed Betamax for a number of reasons. VHS offered a wider selection of hardware at lower cost, the tapes were cheaper, easily available, VHS players were cheaper to manufacture, there were a lot more movies to rent, etc. The obvious difference between the two formats was the recording length. Betamax tapes recorded for 60 minutes, not anywhere long enough to record a movie or a TV program. The 3-hour VHS tapes had the advantage. Sony corrected that flaw, by then it was too late -- JVC had already eaten Sony's lunch. Again, the free market decided the winner and what was best for their needs.

McDonald's vs. Burger King - I won't even touch that because I'm not sure you even know what you are trying to argue for. Both of them have enjoyed market success for decades even though McDonald's has a bigger share of the market. Using your logic, the best cars made are the ones that are sold the most, which isn't the case at all. Quality can have an impact, but to think a free market chooses the best and brightest is nothing but Libertarian fantasy. So I take it you have all of the Back Street Boys music back when they were topping the charts, right?

Here's a little economic logic for you, millions of individuals making purchasing decisions make up the "free market."

Exactly who chose the food items in your refrigerator? Who chose the shoes you wear? Who chose the car you drive? The toothpaste you use? Did you make those choices of your own free will? Or were you coerced? Did you need help from a government agency or bureaucrat? If you made those decisions yourself, based on what was best for you -- is it your position that you're capable of doing so? Yet when millions of other individuals making millions of similar decisions, they somehow are too stupid to decide what is best for them, informed or otherwise. Maybe you should to re-examine that highlighted statement, according to your logic, the free market is made up of millions of idiots, except for you.

The point was -- the example illustrates free market choice. Both chains are successful, the flame-broiled real beef served at BK is a better tasting burger as compared to whatever that is they call meat served on the burgers at MD's -- yet the public consistently votes with their feet and their wallets and rewards MD's with the largest market share in the burger war. You don't think all of those franchised locations just popped up -- do you? I know that supply and demand as a simple concept escapes the statist logic. Let me make it simple for you, obviously more customers demanded MD's over BK and MD's met that demand.

Walmart vs. mom-n-pop - wow, not sure what to say about that, but if I were a betting man, I would guess you drink your beer from a can and never pay more than $3 for a six pack. I can only imagine your personal sense of quality in how that manifests itself in your home furnishings, automobiles, clothing, etc.

Stop guessing and don't risk money you can't afford to lose! You baited the hook, ok, I'll bite. I live in Irvine, now do your own demographics research to assist your imagination. As for my automobile, the Prius and Volt don't quite do it for me -- I prefer the luxury and ride of a Lexus.

You may thumb your nose at Walmart and the people that shop there, but millions of consumers seeking to pay less for goods have made Walmart the 800 pound gorilla of retail. Because Walmart offers what people want at a price they are willing to pay.

snail mail vs. email - again, look it up as to who was behind the creation of electronic mail (oh God no...not the gubmint)

Maybe -- just maybe, you'll figure out the public could care less where a technology originates. Again, if a product/technology does a very simple thing -- does what people want at a price they are willing to pay, it wins!

Apple - do you even know the history of Apple computers? They had some early success followed by years of failure and most recently more success. I was one of the few Apple owners back when everyone said Microsoft was the best. The reality is, the free market rarely, if ever chooses the very best because there are a myriad of circumstances and outside forces that effect the market. Most people who actually work the market know this. It's only the Ayn Randian cult followers who turn the market into some kind of pure religion - who most often are quite ignorant about how the market actually works.

As if the history of Apple is a mystery. Steve Jobs did what upon his return to the company? He streamlined the companies core products and offered what to the public... drum roll please! Products that -- do what people want at a price they are willing to pay. Typical condescending Marxist attitude highlighted above -- the public is too stupid to decide what is best for them. The free market does not necessarily choose "the very best..." people choose (the free market) what they feel is best for them. I know it's a very difficult concept for Karl Marx adulators to grasp -- "who most often are quite ignorant about how the market actually works."

So, yes, you don't want to be 'forced' into supporting alternative energy because that's not letting the market choose the winners. Keep smoking that pipe if it makes you sleep easier at night. In spite of the anti-science rhetoric out there on the internetz, Global Warming is real and is a significant threat to not only the environment, but to our quality of life, our economy and even our national security (that's right, read what the Dept. of Defense has to say). It's only yahoos out there, GW denialists who refuse to accept real science because doing so shatters their whole Randian philosophy that we don't need government to help us find solutions to today's problems.

Obviously the public isn't ready to give up reliable fossil fuels for unproven alternative energy and the entire boondoggle it has become. There must be a certain renewable green plant in the pipe you're smoking since you can't fathom why the public won't get on the more expensive green energy wagon. The Global Hoax Warming junk science is a bigger threat to the quality of life, to the economy of this nation and other developed nations -- while the third world hell holes will get a pass. Developed nations will handcuff their economies and pay for the third world hell holes as they develop. GW alarmists and their flunkies are incapable of seeing the big picture and the real aim the statist/bureaucrats are championing -- more control over every aspect of daily life, more so than we have now.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Obviously the public isn't ready to give up reliable fossil fuels for unproven alternative energy and the entire boondoggle it has become. There must be a certain renewable green plant in the pipe you're smoking since you can't fathom why the public won't get on the more expensive green energy wagon. The Global Hoax Warming junk science is a bigger threat to the quality of life, to the economy of this nation and other developed nations -- while the third world hell holes will get a pass. Developed nations will handcuff their economies and pay for the third world hell holes as they develop. GW alarmists and their flunkies are incapable of seeing the big picture and the real aim the statist/bureaucrats are championing -- more control over every aspect of daily life, more so than we have now.

Greenies don't understand things like free market economy and the word "reality". They live in some fantasy land where money is grown on trees.

[Leatherneck 693]

Greenies don't understand things like free market economy and the word "reality". They live in some fantasy land where money is grown on trees.

Their faith is in government -- yet they don't seem to mind the free market when it's time to eat or buy various other products/services that government has No clue how to produce. Other than when they're shopping and buying products, they have no clue about the free market.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Leatherneck