usage of pronouns?

[Slade&Natasha 7]

My point is if you're using words/phrases that're "out of the book" they may not be applicable to the current situation. Big thanks is the same as thanks big but it sounds funny when you say it one way and the person in line behind you says it the other.

I think this is subjectively funny to you, but I wouldn't even notice or care - they're literally the exact, same thing. Better to use something cliche and out of the book rather than to get all single-handedly 'artistic' with a new language, in turn only getting into awkward predicaments.

All too often with formal learning of a language the subtle nuances and details are scrapped in favor of grammatical rules or useless vocabulary. My personal favorite is "Do you speak English?" in the target language. That's the dumbest question ever (because you could ask in English) yet every language program has that as one of the questions you learn very early on.

With immersion it's possible to learn the things books/classes/etc., wouldn't teach and the student more quickly sounds like a native speaker as opposed to a formally trained foreign student.

Do you happen to be at all familiar with modern ESL resources, to name a few, such as what Cambridge or Longman provide?

It's not an equivalent of having American or British buddies at your disposal, but English-learning resources are modern, cohesive and much different to the old-fashioned resources people have when learning Russian, being a former Business English teacher, I can vouch for this from a lot of personal experience and countless student success stories.

'Formal' language learning certainly scraps street slang in favour or grammar exercises.. but when's having proper grammar ever bad? Exposure to both, in an ideal world, is a great combination whilst learning a language.

What is the Russian word for coffee?

As I said in my previous post:

'Kofe' = Coffee

'Kafe', which you used = coffee shop

~Natasha

Edited March 15, 2012 by Slade&Natasha

[eekee 182]

I don't think the importance of a solid grammatical foundation can be denied. Even when you're dealing with mat or something, you still need grammar. The ideal would be some excellent teachers and then a lot of on-the-ground time. Just one or the other isn't very good on its own if you really want to become fluent.

[Slade&Natasha 7]

I don't think the importance of a solid grammatical foundation can be denied. Even when you're dealing with mat or something, you still need grammar. The ideal would be some excellent teachers and then a lot of on-the-ground time. Just one or the other isn't very good on its own if you really want to become fluent.

I concur.

[slim 1,530]

But it does crack me up when Russians write "Thanks a lot!" in email, as it always comes across as sounding sarcastic (though that was never their intent).

Exactly my point.

кофе = kofe = "KOH-fye"

Transliterated one way... pronounced another. And incorrectly by Americans in both instances. Whether talking about a small business to purchase hot beverages or the hot beverages themselves, it always sounds more like KAH-fee than KOH-fye or Ka-fye.

I think this is subjectively funny to you, but I wouldn't even noti e or care - they're literally the exact, same thing. Better to use something cliche and out of the book rather than to get all single-handedly 'artistic' with a new language, in turn only getting into awkward predicaments.

I agree. But that's not my point. My point is when the average dude learning a few Russian words and phrases to get by while on sex vacation with his perspective new trophy wife goes to learn a language he may have issues because he's learned too formal a program. Instead of concentrating on the things he will need ("Where is the hotel?") He learns things that have absolutely nothing to do with his trip. ("When using infinitive forms in future-perfect, always use an indirect object in the accusative. - Not a real example, just illustrating the different approaches. And when someone like the dude aforementioned goes to learn the language, chances are he'll give it up before he even gets a good hold on it. All because he's concentrating on the wrong things.)

Do you happen to be at all familiar with modern ESL resources, to name a few, such as what Cambridge or Longman provide?

I have no idea what ESL programs include.

'Kofe' = Coffee

'Kafe', which you used = coffee shop

Transliteration as opposed to improper vocabulary.

~Natasha

You really should get your own screen name. (Or kick Slade off yours!)

I don't think the importance of a solid grammatical foundation can be denied. Even when you're dealing with mat or something, you still need grammar. The ideal would be some excellent teachers and then a lot of on-the-ground time. Just one or the other isn't very good on its own if you really want to become fluent.

Not disagreeing (with either of you) simply illustrating a formal approach to learning "survival" Russian isn't going to bode well with the average dude that wife shops on the interwebz.

[Slade&Natasha 7]

Transliterated one way... pronounced another. And incorrectly by Americans in both instances. Whether talking about a small business to purchase hot beverages or the hot beverages themselves, it always sounds more like KAH-fee than KOH-fye or Ka-fye.

What are you on about? 'Kah-fee'? Who taught you that? The difference in pronunciation and transliteration is very evident and true. "Coffee Shop" - Кафе, and "Coffee" - кофе, are written and pronounced differently - nothing like 'Kah-fee', I assure you.

I agree. But that's not my point. My point is when the average dude learning a few Russian words and phrases to get by while on sex vacation with his perspective new trophy wife goes to learn a language he may have issues because he's learned too formal a program. Instead of concentrating on the things he will need ("Where is the hotel?") He learns things that have absolutely nothing to do with his trip. ("When using infinitive forms in future-perfect, always use an indirect object in the accusative. - Not a real example, just illustrating the different approaches. And when someone like the dude aforementioned goes to learn the language, chances are he'll give it up before he even gets a good hold on it. All because he's concentrating on the wrong things.)

That's a subjective point of view - what you find difficult and useless, others fully well may not. In general, in language learning, one should only speak for himself.

Why are you jumping to sudden conclusions about Derek, do you know him well enough to judge what level his Russian is currently at, and whether the approach he's taken towards learning it is efficient or inefficient? How exactly are you able to judge this?

I have no idea what ESL programs include.

Then why deem them not useful in language learning due to lack of similarity in how native speakers talk? You just said so yourself, you have no idea what ESL programs include.

Transliteration as opposed to improper vocabulary.

Uh.. Kah-fee, you say?

You really should get your own screen name. (Or kick Slade off yours!)

Why bother?

Not disagreeing (with either of you) simply illustrating a formal approach to learning "survival" Russian isn't going to bode well with the average dude that wife shops on the interwebz.

How exactly are you illustrating this? Just by saying it? And actually, being that we're talking about 'formal' language learning, which seems to have sparked such a debate; how much 'formal' Russian language learning have you had yourself? For how long?

[slim 1,530]

Take a poll on here. See for yourself.

[SMR 368]

Take a poll on here. See for yourself.

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting the poll be of. But Natasha is right that suggesting that "Kah-fee" is the Russian pronunciation lost you any sort of intellectual authority you may have had on the subject of Russian language. Just because people understand you when you point and grunt doesn't mean you are saying it right. Anyone who told you to pronounce it that way didn't know themselves or was having a laugh at your expense.

Speaking from the standpoint of being fluently bilingual and married to a woman who is also fluently bilingual (and both of us learned our second languages as adults), I don't think you can get there without grammar training. Most second language training that I have seen focuses on phrases that are likely to come up frequently. But building a framework so you can start to make complete sentences and understand structure on your own as your vocabulary expands is also critical. The problem is that although you can memorize a few phrases, there is no good way to know what responses to expect if you say something more complicated than a yes or no question (and even then it's not certain you'll get a yes or no response). While you may be able to ask where the hotel is, how will you understand the response without grammar? If your plan is to wait for pointing and grunting, I fail to see the point of learning any Russian in the first place. That's quite a foolhardy way to go about arriving in a foreign country, particularly Russia, and I would advise coming up with a better way to find the hotel.

[slim 1,530]

The poll will show that men who ordered their wives off the internet had very little success with formal training. However, those who concentrated on informal training tended to do quite well.

Those of you who are fluent in both languages would do well to remember the significant amount of time you spent immersed in the other culture. Compare/contrast that with the time you spent in formal training.

I'm not saying formal training is a bad thing. (There's never really such thing as "bad" training.) What I'm saying is it's important to use your time and resources for what's most effective in your case. The average dude on VJ isn't going to be served well by spending thousands of dollars on classroom training so he can go to Moscow and meet his perspective wife for a sex date. A dude who moves to Russia for a few months and lives with her family probably would.

Transliteration of words such as kafe/kofe rarely leads to accuracy in pronunciation and that was my point with learning to read Cyrillic. If you're reading the word there's a difference in the way it's pronounced. If you're learning the English transliteration of the word, it's quite possible you won't say it correctly in the target language either. That's why it's important to study directly from the target language instead of English transliterations.

[Derek & Rita 6]

The poll will show that men who ordered their wives off the internet had very little success with formal training. However, those who concentrated on informal training tended to do quite well.

Those of you who are fluent in both languages would do well to remember the significant amount of time you spent immersed in the other culture. Compare/contrast that with the time you spent in formal training.

I'm not saying formal training is a bad thing. (There's never really such thing as "bad" training.) What I'm saying is it's important to use your time and resources for what's most effective in your case. The average dude on VJ isn't going to be served well by spending thousands of dollars on classroom training so he can go to Moscow and meet his perspective wife for a sex date. A dude who moves to Russia for a few months and lives with her family probably would.

Transliteration of words such as kafe/kofe rarely leads to accuracy in pronunciation and that was my point with learning to read Cyrillic. If you're reading the word there's a difference in the way it's pronounced. If you're learning the English transliteration of the word, it's quite possible you won't say it correctly in the target language either. That's why it's important to study directly from the target language instead of English transliterations.

I spent not a lot of time immersed in russian culture. I spent maybe a total of two months in Russia. I've studied every day for 30 minutes to an hour every day, as well as using what I learned to communicate with my (now) wife for a few hours a day as well.

Transliteration of words is awful, I bought a book about russian (the for dummies book) and they have no Cyrillic in it at all. It's a shame really, I can't believe they sell a book like that. Not only is it transliterated, you have to memorize not the standard transliteration, but their own 'translation method' where they simply replace a single cyrillic character with a single latin character.

[Slade&Natasha 7]

The poll will show that men who ordered their wives off the internet had very little success with formal training. However, those who concentrated on informal training tended to do quite well.

You ever considered the notion that they feel they've 'done quite well' because nobody corrects them?

Such as your 'spasiba bolshoy' or 'dorbre ootra' - which you are trying to pass off as a transliteration issue, but in reality, you have no idea what declensions or conjugations are, clearly. Why? Because most likely, all you've done is repeat phrases you've heard; yet you never really bothered to take a look at the grammatical aspect for one reason or other, in turn, you make yourself look ridiculous when you're trying to argue in a debate such as this.

Nobody ever disputed the importance of culture immersion. So what's the rant for?

I must note - all you ever seem to do, is spew negative feedback at everybody and anybody. What's up with that, slim?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Slade&Natasha

[Slade&Natasha 7]

Transliteration of words such as kafe/kofe rarely leads to accuracy in pronunciation and that was my point with learning to read Cyrillic.

Do you read Cyrillic?

[Slade&Natasha 7]

I spent not a lot of time immersed in russian culture. I spent maybe a total of two months in Russia. I've studied every day for 30 minutes to an hour every day, as well as using what I learned to communicate with my (now) wife for a few hours a day as well.

Transliteration of words is awful, I bought a book about russian (the for dummies book) and they have no Cyrillic in it at all. It's a shame really, I can't believe they sell a book like that. Not only is it transliterated, you have to memorize not the standard transliteration, but their own 'translation method' where they simply replace a single cyrillic character with a single latin character.

I'd suggest you get a good dictionary, then you'd just have to get used to the transcription. Most of my foreign acquaintances in Moscow had quick results with that

[Derek & Rita 6]

I'd suggest you get a good dictionary, then you'd just have to get used to the transcription. Most of my foreign acquaintances in Moscow had quick results with that

Yes, I have a good dictionary, and I bought a better lesson book. Using the Rosetta Stone software was really helpful to me. I also use google translate and I know enough to understand when it's a good translation and when it's bad.

[slim 1,530]

Transliteration of words is awful, I bought a book about russian (the for dummies book) and they have no Cyrillic in it at all. It's a shame really, I can't believe they sell a book like that. Not only is it transliterated, you have to memorize not the standard transliteration, but their own 'translation method' where they simply replace a single cyrillic character with a single latin character.

Exactly why you're better off simply "reading" the Cyrillic translation.

You ever considered the notion that they feel they've 'done quite well' because nobody corrects them?

Absolutely. And that's probably what happens to the average dude learning Russian by way of his MOB and her two friends.

Such as your 'spasiba bolshoy' or 'dorbre ootra' - which you are trying to pass off as a transliteration issue, but in reality, you have no idea what declensions or conjugations are, clearly. Why? Because most likely, all you've done is repeat phrases you've heard; yet you never really bothered to take a look at the grammatical aspect for one reason or other, in turn, you make yourself look ridiculous when you're trying to argue in a debate such as this.

Who's making the assumptions now?

Nobody ever disputed the importance of culture immersion. So what's the rant for?

What rant? Welcome to the RUB forum. This is how we roll. We should've been on guns and pie by now but you're still talking about declensions and conjugations. You're implying that my "improper transliteration" somehow indicates I have no grammatical concepts of Russian (or any other language for that matter) when in reality nobody's ever corrected me so I feel I've "done quite well."

I must note - all you ever seem to do, is spew negative feedback at everybody and anybody. What's up with that, slim?

I think it's time for another poll.

I'm sorry I don't paint the picture of chasing unicorns over the rainbow for the sunshine and puppy dogs you've found with your sweetheart. Back here in reality, sometimes relationships don't work out so well. Sometimes there are real issues between husbands and wives and sometimes - more often than not - their language issues exacerbate the situation. Please excuse me for pointing that out and giving tips and suggestions that're based on real-world success stories instead of the theory of your newlywed hopes and dreams.

I've spent a lot of time here on VJ, and while language is NEVER the issue.... language is ALWAYS an issue. While it may not be something someone in your particular situation notices, it will be something the OP - and his girl - notice if they're doing 100% of their communication in Russian and she lacks good communication skills in English. Sorry for offering free advice on that topic here on a free internet forum.

Do you read Cyrillic?

Kanyeshna, da! Ti nee cheetayish?

[Slade&Natasha 7]

Please excuse me for pointing that out and giving tips and suggestions that're based on real-world success stories instead of the theory of your newlywed hopes and dreams.

You're excused! Lol @ at your 'real world' (that's adorable!) success stories, may as well be MTV, for all I care.

Get off your petting zoo pony, dude.

Most of the time I've seen you around in posts that require actual input, if you do opt to give yours, it's relatively negative and often rude.

Who's making the assumptions now?

So how did you come up with those aforementioned beauties then?

You're implying that my "improper transliteration" somehow indicates I have no grammatical concepts of Russian (or any other language for that matter) when in reality nobody's ever corrected me so I feel I've "done quite well."

I'm hardly implying anything here - I'm stating it. I've just corrected you twice in this thread, oh.. and your signature is wrong too.. thus, three times.

Kanyeshna, da! Ti nee cheetayish?

Then why did you get confused by a simple letter change in кафе to make the word кофе? A and O confuse you? You've lived all this time, succeeding excellently in your Russian-learning, never having been corrected, not knowing how to pronounce the word 'coffee' properly? Who's talking rainbows and unicorns now, dear?

Конечно, читаю - и тебе советую.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Slade&Natasha