usage of pronouns?

[Slade&Natasha 7]

Hmm, I always thought of Kakaya is kind of like "which one" or something like that.

It's 'which' in female form, but it's also a way of asking 'what's', in different types of questions such as: 'kakaya ona?' meaning what's she like, or 'kakaya problema?' is what's the problem.. not just asking, 'kakaya krasivaya devushka!' is 'what a beautiful girl', that's what I was trying to get across in my other post but my daughter was demanding attention and I didn't get my thoughts across properly before pressing 'post', so maybe that's part of the misunderstanding, possibly?

Edited March 14, 2012 by Slade&Natasha

[Derek & Rita 6]

It's 'which' in female form, but it's also a way of asking 'what's', in different types of questions such as: 'kakaya ona?' meaning what's she like, or 'kakaya problema?' is what's the problem.. not just asking, 'kakaya krasivaya devushka!' is 'what a beautiful girl', that's what I was trying to get across in my other post but my daughter was demanding attention and I didn't get my thoughts across properly before pressing 'post', so maybe that's part of the misunderstanding, possibly?

In that case, the translation should be "such a beautiful girl!" or perhaps that would be the translation to "takaya krasivaya devushka".... t and k sound alike anyway...

[Slade&Natasha 7]

In that case, the translation should be "such a beautiful girl!" or perhaps that would be the translation to "takaya krasivaya devushka".... t and k sound alike anyway...

In Russian both are equally usable.. this particular 'girl' example, the intonation and possibly the context would vary but only quite slightly, they're pretty interchangeable.

Anyway, another example: 'kakaya otlichnaya ideya! - 'What a great idea!'

So, I dunno, maybe some confusion stems from that, but again, this is only me guessing.

[StarGirl 13]

Something that gets me - I talk to my wife about our daughter, and I ask "so how is she?" and she replies with "kto ona?"... is that a common thing where in russian you don't use a pronoun to refer to a third party you just talked about? I get this about half the time, and I don't understand why...

Any native russian speakers here care to elaborate?

in my family it has always been a no-no to refer to someone using a pronoun especially if the third person is present. The way we normally do it - "How is your daughter doing?" "How is (insert name) doing?" and after that it's perfectly fine to insert pronoun every now and then.. though still using name is much more preferable )))) I use it as a rule of thumb even when speaking Eng

[slim 1,523]

My favorite instances of this are when she calls him a her or her an it. With Russian assigning gender to everything it's no wonder we hear things like, the light isn't burning brightly, "Oh, she not work so good. She try and try and work so very hard but her power so gone."

Cute at home... a possible job killer in the workplace. What's amazing is verbal communication is relatively easy but written communications are harder. It's counterintuitive. Written should translate directly but it doesn't. Spoken is often easier because of context clues, intonation, etc.

You'd better ask 'kak ona spit' (how is she sleeping, generally speaking) or 'kak ona spala' (how did she sleep, specifically last night or something)

'kak u neeo spala' = 'how was hers sleeping', not grammatically correct but understandable.

And here's the problem with "formal" language learning. Nobody really talks like that!

There are some really good language learning tools out there with software, books, etc., but at the end of the day, they're way too formal. I remember the first time telling a babooshka in Moscow "Zdrastvuite! Dobre Ootra." And she just kind of grunted. Same with "Spasiba bolshoi!" Or, even better, "Bolshoi Spasiba!"

Say it how they say it.

For the OP - I'd be apprehensive of her not speaking English. One of the biggest headaches and hurdles they face coming over here is not being able to communicate and participate in things. I'd encourage you to have her start English classes ASAP. I'd also encourage you to communicate with her in English. Start today!

[ONA 133]

Hmm, I always thought of Kakaya is kind of like "which one" or something like that.

Actually "kakoy/kakaya" are typically used for asking about qualitative characteristics, i.e. "what is he/she/it like?"

Kakoy/kakaya might be used in the meaning of "which one" also, but it is not always correct. I would advise to use the word "kotoriy/kotoraya" (который/которая) in that meaning, just to avoid confusion.

Speaking of the original post, I also don't understand why your wife is getting confused... And I am a native Russian speaker too, so it must be a personal characteristic.

Also, I was impressed by the fact that you'd learned Russian for your woman. I wish my husband would learn Russian He lacks motivation though...

[Slade&Natasha 7]

My favorite instances of this are when she calls him a her or her an it. With Russian assigning gender to everything it's no wonder we hear things like, the light isn't burning brightly, "Oh, she not work so good. She try and try and work so very hard but her power so gone."

Cute at home... a possible job killer in the workplace. What's amazing is verbal communication is relatively easy but written communications are harder. It's counterintuitive. Written should translate directly but it doesn't. Spoken is often easier because of context clues, intonation, etc.

And here's the problem with "formal" language learning. Nobody really talks like that!

There are some really good language learning tools out there with software, books, etc., but at the end of the day, they're way too formal. I remember the first time telling a babooshka in Moscow "Zdrastvuite! Dobre Ootra." And she just kind of grunted. Same with "Spasiba bolshoi!" Or, even better, "Bolshoi Spasiba!"

Say it how they say it.

For the OP - I'd be apprehensive of her not speaking English. One of the biggest headaches and hurdles they face coming over here is not being able to communicate and participate in things. I'd encourage you to have her start English classes ASAP. I'd also encourage you to communicate with her in English. Start today!

The particular examples I gave for asking about sleep are actually not formal at all, they're such that you can use in a 'normal' conversation, nothing formal about them in the least bit.

I used to teach English to Russians and I've encountered all sorts of quirks and difficulties with that, and I've also lived in a country where neither English, nor a Slavic language were the primarily used languages - I've witnessed people struggling with learning a language all my life, so I must have some sort of natural empathy in that respect or something, I never roll my eyes or grunt at people making an effort.

Oh and.. just to clarify, you're saying that 'Spasibo Bolshoe' is a 'formal' phrase and never actually used?

[Slade&Natasha 7]

Actually "kakoy/kakaya" are typically used for asking about qualitative characteristics, i.e. "what is he/she/it like?"

Kakoy/kakaya might be used in the meaning of "which one" also, but it is not always correct. I would advise to use the word "kotoriy/kotoraya" (который/которая) in that meaning, just to avoid confusion.

Speaking of the original post, I also don't understand why your wife is getting confused... And I am a native Russian speaker too, so it must be a personal characteristic.

Also, I was impressed by the fact that you'd learned Russian for your woman. I wish my husband would learn Russian He lacks motivation though...

Yeah but that example I have to deem 'formal' vs. 'spoken' Russian, the kind of thing Slim was talking about; to be honest, I'd never say 'kotoriy tsvet tvoy lyubimiy?' that's hardly correct, even. You'd say 'Kakoy tvoy lyubimiy tsvet?' --> Which colour is your favourite vs What's your favourite colour is a big difference, imo.. saying 'what's your favourite' colour is far preferable I think, right?

[ONA 133]

Yeah but that example I have to deem 'formal' vs. 'spoken' Russian, the kind of thing Slim was talking about; to be honest, I'd never say 'kotoriy tsvet tvoy lyubimiy?' that's hardly correct, even. You'd say 'Kakoy tvoy lyubimiy tsvet?' --> Which colour is your favourite vs What's your favourite colour is a big difference, imo.. saying 'what's your favourite' colour is far preferable I think, right?

yes, it is. That's my point exactly. And that's why I insist that "kotoriy" should be used as "which" and "kakoy" should be used as "what".

They might be interchangeable in some cases, but not in all cases. That's why to avoid any confusion, I said that it's easier just to use "kotoriy", meaning "which".

There are exceptions, of course, like "What time is it?" is "Kotoriy chas?" (can't be "kakoy chas?"), but in that case we can always say "skol'ko vremeni?" instead, so it works

[ONA 133]

And here's the problem with "formal" language learning. Nobody really talks like that!

There are some really good language learning tools out there with software, books, etc., but at the end of the day, they're way too formal. I remember the first time telling a babooshka in Moscow "Zdrastvuite! Dobre Ootra." And she just kind of grunted. Same with "Spasiba bolshoi!" Or, even better, "Bolshoi Spasiba!"

The man's got a point!

BUT

The reason why the babushka grunted at you was not because you used the phrases we never use (both "Zdravstvuite" and "dobroe utro" are very widely used), but because people in big cities don't tend to say "hello" to any stranger in the street. If you make an eye-contact with somebody in the street you just turn away and keep walking, you don't smile and say "hello", like people do in the States. So that's not a case of a language usage error, it's more of a cultural awareness issue.

It would have been different if you'd went to a tiny village in Ukraine - I promise

"Bolshoe spasibo" is also widely used. You just should know the context for that. It's not exactly the same as "thanks a lot", although it might seem as it is.

The issues you described fall right into my research area, which is linguistic pragmatics, so I can tell you a lot about it, if you're interested, of course

[Slade&Natasha 7]

yes, it is. That's my point exactly. And that's why I insist that "kotoriy" should be used as "which" and "kakoy" should be used as "what".

They might be interchangeable in some cases, but not in all cases. That's why to avoid any confusion, I said that it's easier just to use "kotoriy", meaning "which".

There are exceptions, of course, like "What time is it?" is "Kotoriy chas?" (can't be "kakoy chas?"), but in that case we can always say "skol'ko vremeni?" instead, so it works

Yeah I agree with you there, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to confuse the OP because we've no idea what level his Russian is at currently. But I do get what you're saying

[Derek & Rita 6]

Yeah I agree with you there, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to confuse the OP because we've no idea what level his Russian is at currently. But I do get what you're saying

I see kotori chas as "which hour (is the clock at)".

[Derek & Rita 6]

in my family it has always been a no-no to refer to someone using a pronoun especially if the third person is present. The way we normally do it - "How is your daughter doing?" "How is (insert name) doing?" and after that it's perfectly fine to insert pronoun every now and then.. though still using name is much more preferable )))) I use it as a rule of thumb even when speaking Eng

I think you might have the right answer here. Though of course, she is so little, she can't understand any language yet, much less russian.

And I think for learning to speak, English just seems much easier. Which is easier for a baby to say, "Toy" or "Igrushka" ? "Milk" or "moloko"? We'll keep teaching her russian though, she's only three months...

[Derek & Rita 6]

My favorite instances of this are when she calls him a her or her an it. With Russian assigning gender to everything it's no wonder we hear things like, the light isn't burning brightly, "Oh, she not work so good. She try and try and work so very hard but her power so gone."

Cute at home... a possible job killer in the workplace. What's amazing is verbal communication is relatively easy but written communications are harder. It's counterintuitive. Written should translate directly but it doesn't. Spoken is often easier because of context clues, intonation, etc.

And here's the problem with "formal" language learning. Nobody really talks like that!

There are some really good language learning tools out there with software, books, etc., but at the end of the day, they're way too formal. I remember the first time telling a babooshka in Moscow "Zdrastvuite! Dobre Ootra." And she just kind of grunted. Same with "Spasiba bolshoi!" Or, even better, "Bolshoi Spasiba!"

Say it how they say it.

For the OP - I'd be apprehensive of her not speaking English. One of the biggest headaches and hurdles they face coming over here is not being able to communicate and participate in things. I'd encourage you to have her start English classes ASAP. I'd also encourage you to communicate with her in English. Start today!

Ah, Slim, I think we are doomed to not get along. You always make assumptions that are not correct about me, and you make proclamations.

FYI, she is learning english, but we certainly can't hold a conversation yet. I do help her to practice english, and I have tutored several people in ESL. She's at the point now where these videos will be useful to her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI2J3IT7Ozg

They are useful to me to help me to improve my russian as well.

[Derek & Rita 6]

Also, I was impressed by the fact that you'd learned Russian for your woman. I wish my husband would learn Russian He lacks motivation though...

Well, when you meet the right person, you know. We didn't even speak the same language, but we knew. When that happens, you'll do whatever it takes. As far as language is concerned, we start from where we are strongest and go from there. I learn quickly, so that's why I chose to learn Russian.