Engagement party

[luckytxn 2,264]

Jim, I took offense to your viewpoint that I feel contributes to the xenophobic attitude of many VK toward whites (think Dau Que), and if you don't agree with mine then just simply say that. I realize that I won't get any support for my viewpoint as most of the members of this forum are VK, and your a popular and well liked member. I am not an elegant writer, am a man of few words, and was never a seasoned member of the debate club, however that doesn't make your viewpoint any more valid or correct than my own. Let's just drop this topic.

Brian. You are fine and Jim is as we all are. It is a nice discussion. I am enjoying to read about the different experiences. It can also help others who come in and are wanting to see what to do. As you and everyone can see what is called a Dam Hoi varies from one place to another and even in the same place.

You are right as Jim and all of us here. It is just our own personal experiences that we can comment on. It is what makes this forum so great. I would like to hear if the practice as a a lot different up north near Hanoi.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

trolls removed

[brian_n_phuong 193]

trolls removed

Hey Mr. C

You guys really need to invest in better IDS software, Blocking based on IP is a waste of time. Dau Que can, and has been bouncing off anonymous proxy servers, and he can create new accounts faster than you can delete them. Unfortunately because this is a hosted site you are probably limited in what S/W can be installed to keep him out.

Edited March 11, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Brian. You are fine and Jim is as we all are.

Yup, we all gonna be like Fonzie, and what's Fonzie like?

He's cool .....

Edited March 11, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[JSW 0]

I have to say the points and discussion you all bring to the table is great to allow me a broader perspective to the whole picture. While I have read about the Dam Hoi and somt of the Vietnamese culture I see it is a large country with 83 million people and many different minorities.... alot like being an american and yet living in the south or *cough* Texas or being latino.. they are all still americans. We are one people and of one country, but many different backgrounds. I have traveled extensivly growing up (england, spain, germany, france, switzerland, scotland, ireland, and i have even walked the streets of jerusalem) and I believe it has given me a rational picture of people as a human being and so I have a high value on life and for peoples beliefs. Judging by what I have seen and read on the internet yes I think I could throw a Dam Hoi together in a pinch but I guarentee you it would prolly end as a fiasco. I am interested in what other people have seen and done for their engagement parties and I would like to help my love any way I can but I do realise this is her day and I am only a part of it. I want her to be happy and I want to take part in this as much as I can though I do understand I only have the vaguest of clues of whats going to happen. The important part for me is I respect her and her famlies wishes. I know that even though this is not a wedding it is a monumental occasion for her and her family (even for me) and I dont want to do anything that might insult any of them or their culture, so I look to people that have been through the process for some enlightenment. You all are a great source of information and I am happy to be a part of this forum. I actualy did my own divorce when my ex paid for her's (well her mother did anyway) I knew what would happen it was all spelled out in the books I read and websites I looked up. the ex 150k in debt... me 1/2 my check in child support... and thats the law according to the disomaster(stupid computer)...the judge has no control over the figure. Doing the k-1 doesnt seem any more or less complicated but like any beurocracy its obvious they have their rules and they must be followed if your going to play their game. I intend to and for my Hoa ill do everything I can to win. So....since ill be in Ho Chi Minh on the 3/23/12 I know ill be busy ROFLMAO...Hoa is planning our Dam Hoi for the 29th. but any one in the neighborhood want to hook up for lunch? It would be great to meet...chat some....compare notes...lol

[Alaska101 2]

Dam Hoi is different from regions, families, beliefs in Viet Nam. you could have one or you do not need one. it is up to the families to arrange for Dam Hoi. Dam Hoi has nothing to do with religions in Viet Nam. OP, you should ask your finance family to see what they want.

[JSW 0]

I use the term of Dam Hoi for lack of better. Hoa simply calls it "our engagement ceromony" lol but ill press her for the formal term just cus I am interested.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim. I think you had a wedding because it was the only chance for her family to be at her wedding. They just called it Dam Hoi because of the K1.

There should be no Buddhist temple or religious involvement at Dam Hoi. Maybe it's different because your wife comes from a village.

And Hue is like a different country compared to Saigon.

I never would have known if it was a wedding. As I said, I didn't understand any of it. However, we discussed what and where and how much it was going to cost and everything else. I was also a little surprised we were going to be doing it at a temple, but I was assured repeatedly by my wife and her uncle that this was not a wedding. I'd been on VJ long enough at that time to know what a potential problem anything even remotely like a wedding would have been with a K1, and I was adamant that we should not have a wedding of any sort. They told me we weren't doing it at her mom's house because my wife was a divorced adult with grown kids, and didn't live at her mom's house. They told me we weren't doing it at the village because my wife's ex-husband lives only a couple of blocks from my wife's mother's house, and she was afraid he'd crash the event. My wife was a student of the su phu at that temple, and it was her choice to have the ceremony there.

There were three distinct stages in the event at the temple.

The first stage began with the traditional procession, with me bringing up the rear. My wife's family was standing in a line in the courtyard of the temple to receive us. We all walked up the steps to the landing in front of the temple where a table was set up. The gifts were placed on the table. My wife's uncle then officiated, with bits and pieces of his statements being translated for me, my sister, and my brother in-law by the translator. This was where the rice wine and bitter fruit thing happened. There were no monks involved, at this point.

In the second stage we all went into the temple. That's where the kneeling, bowing, incense, chanting, and me holding the box with the yellow papers took place.

In the last stage we all went down to the first floor of the temple and everyone had breakfast. Of course, I paid for the meal, and also of course, I didn't get to eat anything because my wife and I went from table to table thanking everyone for coming and posing for photos. My avatar photo was taken in the temple courtyard shortly after breakfast.

I never asked for details, but for all I know that first stage was the actual Dam Hoi, and the second stage was just a Buddhist prayer ritual. Dunno. My wife still swears to this day it wasn't a wedding.

[jmhull 2]

I second what Jim said - my husband (non-VK), who is new to Vietnamese culture, has absolutely no idea about how a traditional Vietnamese engagement is done and all the reasoning behind it. I am sure the majority of non-Vietnamese are the same. Understanding a culture requires if not personal experience, then a lot of research and studying. On the other hand, VKs, with their family connection (either a lot or a little), usually have the opportunities to understand, at least, some pieces of the culture of the land where their ancestors were born (and this has little to do with their ability to speak the language fluently). That being said, there are exceptions. I know some Americans (non-VK) living and working in Vietnam who speaks, and understand the Vietnamese culture no less than any Vietnamese; and at the same time, there are some VKs who are clueless when it comes to Vietnamese culture. This is, however, just a small number compared to the majority.

Jim sad "Unless you're Viet Kieu then you PROBABLY would have no idea how to plan this" - just "probably", and so i don't think there is anything wrong with that.

I was born in Hue, lived both in Hanoi and Saigon, and have seen how engagement parties are done in all those places. Hue seems to be the only place where weddings are sometimes organized in a pagoda (optional only, however), because Buddhism plays a special and important role in the spiritual life of Hue people. Other than that, the usual proceedings at engagement parties and weddings in Hue's families are not so much different than those of other regions in VN.

[brian_n_phuong 193]

I know some Americans (non-VK) living and working in Vietnam who speaks, and understand the Vietnamese culture no less than any Vietnamese; and at the same time, there are some VKs who are clueless when it comes to Vietnamese culture.

There are numerous minorities (non-Kinh) within the borders of Viet Nam. They are just as much Vietnamese as anyone else yet have cultural practices that are quite different. Should a K1 petitioner marrying one of these minorities also be required to conduct a Dam Hoi? My point is why should someone be required to participate in a Dam Hoi when it's not uniformally performed by all Vietnamese citizens. Furthermore, how can a US Consulate Officer judge whether a cultural ceremony was performed without any specific training or knowledge of CURRENT engagement practices in EVERY region of Viet Nam.

On one hand we say that the "whitebread" know nothing about the Dam Hoi, yet a "whitebread" Consular Officer is allowed to judge the validity of that same Dam Hoi. Let me guess, they read a copy of Lonely Planet - Vietnam before taking their post.

[Alaska101 2]

there is no textbook on what to do for Dam Hoi. it is not a law. it is a practice that could be different by each family, each region, and religion. it is a tradition that is passing down through generations. i agreed with jmhull. the basic principles are the same, but the details could be different quite a bit. ultimately, it is what the families agreed on. does the neighbor cares? none of his or her business.

[brian_n_phuong 193]

there is no textbook on what to do for Dam Hoi. it is not a law. it is a practice that could be different by each family, each region, and religion. it is a tradition that is passing down through generations. i agreed with jmhull. the basic principles are the same, but the details could be different quite a bit. ultimately, it is what the families agreed on. does the neighbor cares? none of his or her business.

Well, thats the point... I don't care what the neighbor thinks. I do however have to care what the consular officer thinks as he judges (without any training) the validity of our Dam Hoi.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Well, thats the point... I don't care what the neighbor thinks. I do however have to care what the consular officer thinks as he judges (without any training) the validity of our Dam Hoi.

Yes we do. Some have gone through the visa process with no Dam Hoi and gotten a pink. Just front load and explain why no Dam Hoi. In the past they have denied a visa and listed the no Dam Hoi as not "following customs" ordinarily done. When they have denied for this it is one of the reasons. We need to try to strengthen our hand then to help get the pink.

These are bureaucrats here we are dealing with. They go a class on the customs of whatever country they are going to and again when they get to their destination. They are told of things to look for and so on. These are not trained detectives or even usually good interrogators. We here on this site maybe know more than most about dealing with this consulate.

Have the Dam Hoi or explain why one wasn't performed. The consulate cares so lets give it to them.

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Bye Bye DQ

Edited March 18, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

one troll ejected.