Engagement party

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Unless you're Viet Kieu then you probably would have no idea how to plan this.

You assume that anyone of non-Viet blood knows nothing about Vietnamese culture, or that all Vietnamese celebrate traditions in exactly the same way regardless of region. Viet Nam is a very diverse place .

As far asViet Kieu being experts: Times have changed in VIet Nam, and many traditions are not exactly the same as they were before 1980.

The new generation of VK are even more distant. I know numerous 2nd Gen'ers that can't even speak Vietnamese and believe that a VIet tradition is deciding between a Lexus or Acura.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

You assume that anyone of non-Viet blood knows nothing about Vietnamese culture, or that all Vietnamese celebrate traditions in exactly the same way regardless of region. Viet Nam is a very diverse place .

As far asViet Kieu being experts: Times have changed in VIet Nam, and many traditions are not exactly the same as they were before 1980.

The new generation of VK are even more distant. I know numerous 2nd Gen'ers that can't even speak Vietnamese and believe that a VIet tradition is deciding between a Lexus or Acura.

I assume what I said. I read everything I could possibly find on the internet about the engagement ceremony before I actually had to participate in one, and I'm sure I knew more than 99% of white bread Americans know about it, but if you dropped me in Vietnam and told me to plan a Dam Hoi then I'd be clueless where to go to even get started. I'm not saying every Viet Kieu knows how to plan a Dam Hoi in Veitnam. I'm saying that the odds of an average non-Vietnamese American being able to figure it out on their own is slim to none. Even if their fiancee in Vietnam doesn't know anything about planning a Dam Hoi, it's a safe bet that they would have much more success finding someone who does than the American would.

It's pretty obvious the OP isn't Viet Kieu, or at least has never been taught about the Dam Hoi. He got his information the same place I did before my Dam Hoi. He shouldn't be trying to plan this himself.

FWIW, a lot of the internet sites parrot the same information. From what the OP has said, it sounds like he's been reading the same sites I did. Since that time I've personally been a future groom at one Dam Hoi, and subsequently attended three more, one in Hue city, and two more in the village. At one of those I was even tagged to be paternal representative of the groom's family. (Yes, I DID eat the damn bitter fruit! The sticky rice and tea was a welcome relief!). What you say about the traditions not being cast in concrete is absolutely true. Every one of those ceremonies was different in many ways. Mine was probably the most different of all of them because me and my wife had our ceremony at a Buddhist temple instead of at her mom's house in the village. One reason was because my wife didn't live at her mom's house - she had her own house in Hue city. But the main reason was because she was afraid of her drunk ex-husband showing up if we had the ceremony or party in the village.

[luckytxn 2,264]

There is a long and rich tradition of a Dam Hoi. I personally was clueless. Somehow I went and survived a couple of weeks in Vietnam totally ignorant of customs. They took care of whatever needed with no input from me. I was just basically to be there.

No one here has any worry about any of this. We are basically all men here marrying babes in VN. They will do what is needed to make it happen and the only thing we need to do is maybe pay for it. As Scott said, get used to it.

I will say that the difference between the party in Hue and Trang Bom is a lot.

[tcTTct 37]

I know numerous 2nd Gen'ers that can't even speak Vietnamese and believe that a VIet tradition is deciding between a Lexus or Acura.

Now you're just stereotyping. Some of us have to choose between a Mercedes and a BMW.

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Now you're just stereotyping. Some of us have to choose between a Mercedes and a BMW.

:rofl: Good Point !

[brian_n_phuong 193]

It's pretty obvious the OP isn't Viet Kieu, or at least has never been taught about the Dam Hoi. He got his information the same place I did before my Dam Hoi. He shouldn't be trying to plan this himself.

Several attorneys I've talked to had the same thing to say about this website, that those that haven't been taught and certified to practice about immigration law shouldn't be playing "lawyer" and advising others. I'm not saying that those attorney's are correct, but that your explanation is based on the same mindset when it comes to Vietnamese traditions. I know many Viet Kieu that no nothing little about VIet culture, and some "white bread" that are quite fluent in all things Viet. If this guy wants to plan his OWN Dam Hoi, then its nobodys business except between the those two families.

Edited March 10, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Several attorneys I've talked to had the same thing to say about this website, that those that haven't been taught and certified to practice about immigration law shouldn't be playing "lawyer" and advising others. I'm not saying that those attorney's are correct, but that your explanation is based on the same mindset when it comes to Vietnamese traditions. I know many Viet Kieu that no nothing little about VIet culture, and some "white bread" that are quite fluent in all things Viet. If this guy wants to plan his OWN Dam Hoi, then its nobodys business except between the those two families.

Immigration isn't a legal process. There are no courts involved unless you're in removal proceedings. It's an application to the government for a discretionary benefit. It's complicated, but not so much that a person of average intelligence couldn't learn how to do it themselves. This is what pisses them off. To be honest, preparing a typical tax return is a lot more complicated than the forms and documents you need to prepare in order to get a visa, and I don't see tax preparers up in arms because a lot of people chose to do their own taxes. Given some of the horror stories I've read on this site, I'd say there are a fair number of immigration lawyers who shouldn't be "playing lawyer" because they have no idea what they're doing. I don't mean to disparage the good immigration attorneys, because there are a lot of them. I've met a few who I have a lot of respect for. None of them tried to discourage me from doing it myself, but said they'd be available to help if I ran into problems or thought I was in over my head. They get plenty of business from people who don't have the time or the desire to learn what they need to do on their own. It's the shysters who make a killing overcharging people for filling out forms who are angry. They're afraid people will come to VJ and find out they've been fleeced for doing something they could have easily done themselves.

My opinion about the OP planning his own Dam Hoi is not at all like the lawyers who claim that non-attorneys shouldn't give advice about immigration processing. It has to do with knowing the local customs and traditions, as well as what the people involved want, and what's available locally and where to get what you need. He can't possibly know this, or learn it on the internet. For example, I could give you a book that explains how to drive a car, but I can't tell you where to buy one because I don't know what dealerships are in your town, and the actual practical experience of learning to drive can only be acquired by getting behind the wheel.

[VinceN 25]

Immigration isn't a legal process. There are no courts involved unless you're in removal proceedings. It's an application to the government for a discretionary benefit. It's complicated, but not so much that a person of average intelligence couldn't learn how to do it themselves. This is what pisses them off. To be honest, preparing a typical tax return is a lot more complicated than the forms and documents you need to prepare in order to get a visa, and I don't see tax preparers up in arms because a lot of people chose to do their own taxes. Given some of the horror stories I've read on this site, I'd say there are a fair number of immigration lawyers who shouldn't be "playing lawyer" because they have no idea what they're doing. I don't mean to disparage the good immigration attorneys, because there are a lot of them. I've met a few who I have a lot of respect for. None of them tried to discourage me from doing it myself, but said they'd be available to help if I ran into problems or thought I was in over my head. They get plenty of business from people who don't have the time or the desire to learn what they need to do on their own. It's the shysters who make a killing overcharging people for filling out forms who are angry. They're afraid people will come to VJ and find out they've been fleeced for doing something they could have easily done themselves.

Very well said.

I did the entire thing on my own and never looked back!

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Immigration isn't a legal process. There are no courts involved unless you're in removal proceedings. It's an application to the government for a discretionary benefit. It's complicated, but not so much that a person of My opinion about the OP planning his own Dam Hoi is not at all like the lawyers who claim that non-attorneys shouldn't give advice about immigration processing. It has to do with knowing the local customs and traditions, as well as what the people involved want, and what's available locally and where to get what you need. He can't possibly know this, or learn it on the internet. For example, I could give you a book that explains how to drive a car, but I can't tell you where to buy one because I don't know what dealerships are in your town, and the actual practical experience of learning to drive can only be acquired by getting behind the wheel.

Jim, I see your point, please at least give some credence to my own. Another example, I have been a practicing Buddhist for ten years. Should I have a VK Catholic or VK agnostic provide mentoring to my whitebread self on what is largely in principle a Buddhist spiritual practice. Granted it has taken on more secular spin in recent years (Buddha didn't drink Heineken), but it is still based in the Buddhist faith. Perhaps non-Buddhists could sue the US Govt for being compelled to participate in a Dam Hoi which may violate their religious principle.

[VinceN 25]

Jim, I see your point, please at least give some credence to my own. Another example, I have been a practicing Buddhist for ten years. Should I have a VK Catholic or VK agnostic provide mentoring to my whitebread self on what is largely in principle a Buddhist spiritual practice. Granted it has taken on more secular spin in recent years (Buddha didn't drink Heineken), but it is still based in the Buddhist faith. Perhaps non-Buddhists could sue the US Govt for being compelled to participate in a Dam Hoi which may violate their religious principle.

Are you saying dam hoi is more of a buddhist practice?

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Are you saying dam hoi is more of a buddhist practice?

I hope this isn't a "gotcha question"

There are portions of the ceremony that are certainly based in Buddhism, but understandably the line between Christianity and Buddhism has become very blurred in Viet Nam. I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion thread, my point was that a Dam Hoi can vary in practice and simply being VK doesn't grant total inherited deep knowledge of every culture in the entire country. In addition to regional differences what if one's fiancé is Hmong, or in the case of Sayha, Khmer Krom? In a reverse scenario, how would a VK Catholic feel if a whitebread Catholic tried to instruct them on the importance of Holy Communion?

Edited March 10, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[Sayha or bust. 71]

Very well said.

I did the entire thing on my own and never looked back!

I had no clue what I doing at my engagement party, my now wife's family planned everything, I was just the bank. I took my coworkers mom with me to help translate and help me through out my trip but she had her own agenda when she got there most of her time was with her 2 sons. The engagement party was based on Theravada Buddhism tradition looking at my video the other night, I was winging it the whole way. Even caught myself falling a sleep during it( 90 degrees and I had a heavy blazer on,probably had some heat exhaustion). If I had to do it over again I would of done more homework about the Dam Hoi instead of worry more about the immigration process.

I'm sure i mentioned this before my party looked like a marriage ceremony more than a Dam Hoi my fiancee would refer to me as her husband to people and in our letters after it. I filed a K1 and was never scrutinized by the CO as he looked at our pictures. I'm not condoning my fiancee's behavior or mine during our experience because I've read on VJ and the internet about people getting denied because of the way we headed our letters and Dam Hoi pictures we presented to the CO.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sayha or bust.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Jim, I see your point, please at least give some credence to my own. Another example, I have been a practicing Buddhist for ten years. Should I have a VK Catholic or VK agnostic provide mentoring to my whitebread self on what is largely in principle a Buddhist spiritual practice. Granted it has taken on more secular spin in recent years (Buddha didn't drink Heineken), but it is still based in the Buddhist faith. Perhaps non-Buddhists could sue the US Govt for being compelled to participate in a Dam Hoi which may violate their religious principle.

I am an agnostic, and I wouldn't pretend to give spiritual advice to anyone about anything.

That said, our Dam Hoi was most definitely deeply steeped in Buddhist traditions and beliefs. In fact, we had our Dam Hoi at a Buddhist temple, and it was "officiated" (if that's the proper term) by a prominent Su Thuc in Hue city. I bowed when my wife bowed. I kneeled when my wife kneeled. When they handed me a little box containing yellow papers with Chinese script on them I held the box like they told me to. When they handed me sticks of incense and indicated I should bow then that's what I did. I did everything they wanted me to do, while simultaneously not having a clue what I was doing. The only thing I didn't do that everyone else was doing was chanting because I didn't have a clue what they were saying. I kept my mouth shut. I even had a brief statement I was supposed to make after the ceremony inviting everyone to the party that afternoon. My wife tried to help me learn to say it in Vietnamese, but I wasn't able to say it in a way that any Vietnamese person would have been able to understand. In the end, I made my statement in English, and the translator we hired repeated it in Vietnamese for everyone else.

I don't claim you could have dropped a VK into my place and that they would have automatically known what to do. I'm saying the reverse is true - almost any other white bread American would NOT have known what to do any more than I did, and would not have been able to contribute to the planning of the event in any meaningful way. A VK who had some first hand experience with the ceremony, and could at least speak the language, might have a chance of helping to plan the thing.

The other Dam Hoi where I personally participated as the paternal representative also had some Buddhist aspects to it, mainly confined to the bride and groom praying at the family altars, first at the groom's representative home (the home of a family friend in the village), and then at the bride's home, which was actually next door. That whole experience was more surrealistic than my own Dam Hoi. I walked near the front of the procession, yet I wasn't even related to the groom in any way. In fact, he's Hispanic and I'm white. He asked me to represent his family because I was the only American he knew in Vietnam at the time, and the only other member of his family who was there was his teenage daughter.

I did witness one Dam Hoi that had no religious ceremony at all. The bride was Catholic and the groom was Buddhist. They still had the presentation of the gifts, and they still had the procession from one house to the other, but there was no praying. That couple was Vietnamese. There were no Americans involved. The bride happened to be a cousin of my wife's, so that's the only reason I saw it. So I guess it is possible to have a totally secular version of the ceremony. What I know of the tradition is that it's more cultural than religious anyway. I suppose that would be the response if you tried to sue Department of State for allowing the consulate in HCMC to implicitly require a Dam Hoi.

[tcTTct 37]

Jim. I think you had a wedding because it was the only chance for her family to be at her wedding. They just called it Dam Hoi because of the K1.

There should be no Buddhist temple or religious involvement at Dam Hoi. Maybe it's different because your wife comes from a village.

And Hue is like a different country compared to Saigon.

Edited March 11, 2012 by tcTTct

[brian_n_phuong 193]

I am an agnostic, and I wouldn't pretend to give spiritual advice to anyone about anything.

Jim, I took offense to your viewpoint that I feel contributes to the xenophobic attitude of many VK toward whites (think Dau Que), and if you don't agree with mine then just simply say that. I realize that I won't get any support for my viewpoint as most of the members of this forum are VK, and your a popular and well liked member. I am not an elegant writer, am a man of few words, and was never a seasoned member of the debate club, however that doesn't make your viewpoint any more valid or correct than my own. Let's just drop this topic.