I-485 RFE (INITIAL) RECEIVED , I-864 RELATED - PLS ADVISE !

[aosapplicant 3]

I know exactly what you mean by saying "I personally am confused as it seems utterly self contradictory to enter either 1 or 0 on 21.c" If you are married, it suggests you put 1, but since you are already counted as a beneficiary, then you should put 0. I filed for my wife this week, and decided to put 0 in that box. I'll keep you posted how it turned out.

Thank you , kstorzyk!

Yes, I feel very confused , but reading and re-reading it over and over I arrived to the same conclusion as you (since the form says not to enter same beneficiary or member of household twice) and it seems to me that number "0" should be entered for 21.c provided I am the beneficiary already mention on line/s 8.,9., 10 and 21 a.

I will see my attorney tomorrow and discuss it. I think it would be tragic to get denied for a mistake as silly as this, plus all the wasted fees for a petition and an attorney....

I will probably do an info-pass as well, but am afraid they will not be able to give any guidelines as it is specifically stated that INFOPASS is NOT for legal advise, it is my lawyers job to give me proper legal counsel!

Anyway, I am planning to do my utmost and whatever I can to make sure everything is filed properly and if there is any error I will do what I can to correct it.

I just need very clear picture first so I can decide a course of action.

Also, IF (and this is an IF) the attorney sent RFE response and USCIS already received it , may I re-submit corrected response before 87 days deadline?

[crystal12 0]

Hello aosapplicant and fellow forum members! In my opinion, the Attorney is technically right in not entering "1" in box 5 21 c in question. A closer lookand understanding on the instruction will reveal that you are not supposed to count anyone twice- which is boldly written in caps. 21 a reads "enter thenumber you entered in line 10" which is the Applicant/Beneficiary. The line before b reads "Persons NOT sponsored in this affidavit" then c reads "If you are currently married, enter "1" for your spouse" In my firm opinion, this does not apply to you in the sense that 21 a has already taken care of you. It will make more sense where there is a joint-sponsor is filling out the form and coincindently married or where a parent is sponsoring a child. The intendment of the part 21 of the form is for calculation of the household size, thus adding "1" under 21 C will alter the sum up in part 5 21 h.

In the light of the above, I think but not sure that "r" might mean "refer"...to 21 a. So I will suggest we dont rush into conclusions by tarnishing the image of this Attorney but rather do a constructive criticism.

You should politely ask your Attorney what the letter "R" means in the form and dont borther to waste your money going for the appointment. Dont send your anything to USCIS on your own, work with your Attorney and ask for clarifications.

I filed my papers myself and didnt enter anything in the box in question and I did not get any RFE whatsoever. I am in Baltimore and interview set for late March. My application was recieved on Jan. 4.

I hope my contribution is reasonable enough. I am open to any constructive objections. Thank you.

[aosapplicant 3]

Hello aosapplicant and fellow forum members! In my opinion, the Attorney is technically right in not entering "1" in box 5 21 c in question. A closer lookand understanding on the instruction will reveal that you are not supposed to count anyone twice- which is boldly written in caps. 21 a reads "enter thenumber you entered in line 10" which is the Applicant/Beneficiary. The line before b reads "Persons NOT sponsored in this affidavit" then c reads "If you are currently married, enter "1" for your spouse" In my firm opinion, this does not apply to you in the sense that 21 a has already taken care of you. It will make more sense where there is a joint-sponsor is filling out the form and coincindently married or where a parent is sponsoring a child. The intendment of the part 21 of the form is for calculation of the household size, thus adding "1" under 21 C will alter the sum up in part 5 21 h.

In the light of the above, I think but not sure that "r" might mean "refer"...to 21 a. So I will suggest we dont rush into conclusions by tarnishing the image of this Attorney but rather do a constructive criticism.

You should politely ask your Attorney what the letter "R" means in the form and dont borther to waste your money going for the appointment. Dont send your anything to USCIS on your own, work with your Attorney and ask for clarifications.

I filed my papers myself and didnt enter anything in the box in question and I did not get any RFE whatsoever. I am in Baltimore and interview set for late March. My application was recieved on Jan. 4.

I hope my contribution is reasonable enough. I am open to any constructive objections. Thank you.

crystal12, thanks a lot for your input. I agree with you about not tarnishing attorney. Rushing to judgement never does justice to anyone, that's why I have an appointment with him tomorrow, to clarify this question once again,with the filled out paperwork we can both look at at the same time and help me better understand it.

If anything, my initial impression was that this was typo on behalf of his assistant who filled out the paperwork, but then who knows? What if r" means refer to ? (although not sure what referral would be to, in absence of any notes on the page).

In any event, the pressure is enormous: If you think of it, any clerical error, any typo or mistake on part of attorney could lead to the denial of the entire petition , and how unfortunate it would be to get denied over something like that?!

So, I try to do whatever I can to make sure everything was filed properly and IF anything wasn't to correct it as soon as possible and if possible at all.

Your inputs are very helpful, thanks to all!

[S_R 148]

If the Clown filled the correct thing how the heck would he be able to extort more money...quite sad. I pray things work out for you .

[NancyNguyen 1,657]

crystal12, thanks a lot for your input. I agree with you about not tarnishing attorney. Rushing to judgement never does justice to anyone, that's why I have an appointment with him tomorrow, to clarify this question once again,with the filled out paperwork we can both look at at the same time and help me better understand it.

If anything, my initial impression was that this was typo on behalf of his assistant who filled out the paperwork, but then who knows? What if r" means refer to ? (although not sure what referral would be to, in absence of any notes on the page).

In any event, the pressure is enormous: If you think of it, any clerical error, any typo or mistake on part of attorney could lead to the denial of the entire petition , and how unfortunate it would be to get denied over something like that?!

So, I try to do whatever I can to make sure everything was filed properly and IF anything wasn't to correct it as soon as possible and if possible at all.

Your inputs are very helpful, thanks to all!

There is no need to discuss, he did it wrongly, don't waste time with this fool anymore. No R or any letter on the blank for 21.c, it is 0 in your case. Wish they will overlook this error. Good luck.

[jdh 103]

Again...your lawyer was wrong. No questions. No ifs, no buts...your lawyer was wrong. Follow the example forms and you will see how a properly filed form should look. R is not a number - if you put one or ou put 0 I am sure you would be fine as long as your total at the bottom is right. I have seen people on here do it both ways but never once have I heard of somebody putting a letter as an answer.

Hiring a lawyer in most cases, IMO, is a waste of money. Unless there is something really odd with your case or you have money coming out the wazoo I would never do it...but that is neither here nor there. What's done is done. I would consult the folks at uscis and see if you can file a second correction as I am sure that does not come up very often.

[aosapplicant 3]

He didn't charge me extra for the reply. If a case gets denied and I have to do I-290 that lawyer is not going to represent me ( This error is not irreparable in

principle.What is he, as a lawyer, going to gain from it? I may even have to file official claim against him to show prejudice if this has to be settled in court. Any Judge will rule in favor of applicant who was denied on such a typo or technicality, as this has nothing to do with statutory eligibility).

Why would lawyer be so irrational and make such mistake?

If it is a sure error, I tend to think it was more of a negligence on his part, to review the form before submission and most likely caused by

paralegal who actually filled the blanks (as we all know lawyers do not fill out forms, they delegate it to their assistants and paralegals, just as nurses do

most of doctors job).

Hiring lawyer is not a waste of money. A lot of you have submitted your BC and other evidence yet got hit with initial RFE. What if you file all the correct forms yet some new employee who reviews your makes mistake and denies you and then claims you never provided anything ? Who is going to testify and prove you did what you had to ? You vs the CIS employee? Good luck with that!

Only those who do not understand law or how infinite are ways the things could turn out wrong will claim that hiring an attorney is a waste of time.

In fact, if your case is a salvage you no longer need attorney , no attorney will fix the sure loser case. But a perfectly, 100% winner case could easily get denied by error, due to millions of things that could possibly go wrong, including an improper check in the box asking how many heads you have.

So, while I appreciate everyone of you who shared an opinion, I must respectfully disagree with those forum members who claim that hiring an attorney is a waste of time. The problem is not so much the attorneys' intentions as it is the way the cases are handled ( I am sure most attorneys don't spend more than a split second reviewing the case as they are too busy attending court hearings and all typos/stupid errors are primarily caused by paralegals who often underpaid and utterly incompetent).

I will see him tomorrow and find out what if anything went wrong here. In the end I will not lose a case because of an error like this, even if I-485 gets denied and I must defend in in EOIR. But it would be a huge waste of energy, time and resources and that is what I must avoid by all means if at all possible.

I hope that CIS employee, when reviewing the case (even if this is filled in error) will recognize the fact that this is just a typo (by all means it is clear that I am the only person sponsored and the total number of household members is correct, as we have 4 of us in our family). If so, he will transfer the case to

local office and let such things to be addressed during a personal interview where they go over each question and answer on app.

However, there is no guarantee that this is how it will go. It is just as possible for some new officer to get pissed with the applicant or his attorney who twice made the same clerical error and he or she may decide to "penalize" me by putting me through lengthy litigious process of having to prove in front of a Judge that 1 + 1 is 2.

I will update of progress (e-cas showed the LUD today, stating they have received the response to RFE and resumed case processing).

We will see what happens next.Not sure if I can still re-submit the correction if lawyer indeed

made an error or had a stupid staff who made the same mistake twice. I will hope for best and prepare for the worst.

Thanks to all who shared the input. If ANY OF YOU HAD BEEN THROUGH THE SAME OR SIMILAR case RFE your input would be the most valuable.

Thanks to all!

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Okay. Yes. Hiring a law firm is a complete was of time unless your case is difficult. As you have found out there are often stupid typos made my legal assistants (not paralegals typically, they normally do other more important things than fill in a database with your info because contrary to your opinion, paralegals aren't uneducated, the legal assistants are just secretaries, paralegals need schooling), typos that you would most likely have not made as you know your info better than an assistant. People have had their cases completely screwed up by hiring a law firm (I say firm because as you said, it's not normally the attorney that does it). Some people benefit because they don't have the time to do these things themselves, research it themselves... foolish to put something so important in the hands of someone else but that's a personal opinion.

Also R is completely wrong as others have said. I see now that the response to the RFE was already sent so there's nothing you can do now except wait and see what happens. I recall someone not responding completely to an RFE because they were afraid of missing the deadline then sending more and BETTER info later (also before the deadline) and they were of course denied because they'd already replied to the RFE the second lot was ignored.

You make note of hoping the CO notices it's a typo... that's not their job. If they recognise it as a typo they RFE you to fix it (which you state was already what the form looked like so they already did) because they are not supposed to assume they know what you mean because they could assume wrong. Hopefully though the "resumed processing" means they're just gunna ignore it.

What visa are you AOSing from (). If you are AOSing from the VWP you are not afforded the chance to appeal and you will be deported. If you are AOSing from any other visa there typically is a chance to appeal.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Any Judge will rule in favor of applicant who was denied on such a typo or technicality, as this has nothing to do with statutory eligibility).

Why would lawyer be so irrational and make such mistake?

I wanted to address this specifically. If you were to be denied it would be because you failed to show eligibility by not following the instructions on the forms (happens quite often). The judge ruling in this manner would be totally legit. Don't go thinking you're going to be fine because this is "just a typo". It's not a typo. You don't accidentally put R instead of a number... TWICE. USCIS followed the rules by RFEing you. Failure to respond to the RFE correctly results in denial, this is within the law.

The judge MAY sustain the denial but permit you the chance to refile (because as you said, you're not ineligible, you just didn't follow the instructions so they may be lenient). You'd have to pay ALL the fees again (medical as well 'cause you'll need another sealed envelope) and start from the start... while this isn't ideal, it is better than denial and deportation.

[LinabFrank 0]

Ok I'm a 100% sure that your lawyer filled your Form Wrong,here is how's suppose to be:

Part 5 sponsor's household size

21.Your household size Do not count anyone twice

Persons you are sponsoring in this affidavit

a.Enter the number you entered in line 10: 0 1

Persons NOT sponsored in this affidavit

B.Yourself 1

C.if you are currently married enter 1 for your spouse 0 0 NOT R or 01 as you already been counted aboveThis is for cases when people are sponsoring someone other than their spouses and their spouses are not the beneficiary.

D.If you have dependent children enter the number here 02

e. If you have any other dependents, enter the number here. 00(left in blank on mine)

f.If you have sponsored any other persons on an I-864 or I-864 EZ

who are now lawful permanent residents, enter the number here. 0 0 ( on mine I actually left in blank)

G.OPTIONAL: If you have siblings, parents, or adult children with

the same principal residence who are combining their income

with yours by submitting Form I-864A, enter the number here 0 0 (blank)

h. Add together lines and enter the number here. Household Size: 0 4

I really don't have suggestions on how to fix the issue,but If I were you I would send my own corrected answer so your case won't be delayed any longer by another RFE.

I have filled my AOS and helped my sister with hers and neither of them got an RFE,I filled both of them with 00 on that section.I really have no idea how your lawyer came up with an R and in all honesty I would definitively get rid of him.

I had an student visa screwed up in the past by a lawyer and I know how frustrating it is,learned the lesson and filled AOS by myself.

Anyways I hope I helped you with this info,good luck and wish everything gets sorted out.

[duriantaste 44]

Guys guys c'om. We are talking about a lawyer how else he will milk money if he doesn't screw up ? that is the way they make money they screw up and milk more money from customers. It is plain and simple. Simple Lawyers math.

[Joandjo 20]

Dear Forum member,

I am an AOS applicant. I have an attorney who has submitted an I-130 and I-485 on behalf of my sponsoring spouse (USC) and

myself (applicant/beneficiary).

I have recently received an RFE.

The letter from USCIS states that page 3 of I-864 was missing or wasn't properly filled.

So, my attorney has resubmitted the requested page.

But I have also reviewed the page that was resubmitted and had a confusion as to what would be the proper way to fill it.

My spouse is sponsoring me , she is the only sponsor I have.

The question is:

HOW DO YOU ANSWER THE PART 5 , 21.c. ?

My attorney filled r" next to If you are currently married , enter "1" for your spouse.

I called my attorney and asked why instead of "1" they entered r"

My attorney told me that entering "1" there would confuse the matters and that they have properly filled the field.

I am now very concerned. What if USCIS considers this as an improper filing? And, most importantly, what is the correct way of

answering that question (Part 5, 21.c) ?

Again, I will clarify once more: I AM A SPOUSE OF USC. My spouse filed I-130 to sponsor me and was required to submit I-864 as part of

application. I have filed I-485 (concurrently, as a spouse of USC). She is my ONLY sponsor and I am the ONLY person she ever sponsored (is sposoring now).

To the best of your knowledge, what is the proper way to answer Part 5, Q. 21.c on I-864 Form?

My attorney mailed reply which was received days ago but there is no update on USCIS case status page and

I am really concerned what if the question is improperly answered I what if I get denied for something

so silly as thAt?

Tomorrow I will see my attorney in person, but I wanted to hear from those of you who have filed this form and

are knowledgeable of how to properly answer Part 5 21.c? Is my attorney correct? Do you enter r" or "1" or

some other answer is required?

Please share your opinion (preferably those of you who already were approved or filled the forms a while ago and didn't get RFE

for it).

Thanks!!

AOS applicant

FOr Part 5 21.c We entered 0

[aosapplicant 3]

Ok I'm a 100% sure that your lawyer filled your Form Wrong,here is how's suppose to be:

Part 5 sponsor's household size

21.Your household size Do not count anyone twice

Persons you are sponsoring in this affidavit

a.Enter the number you entered in line 10: 0 1

Persons NOT sponsored in this affidavit

B.Yourself 1

C.if you are currently married enter 1 for your spouse 0 0 NOT R or 01 as you already been counted aboveThis is for cases when people are sponsoring someone other than their spouses and their spouses are not the beneficiary.

D.If you have dependent children enter the number here 02

e. If you have any other dependents, enter the number here. 00(left in blank on mine)

f.If you have sponsored any other persons on an I-864 or I-864 EZ

who are now lawful permanent residents, enter the number here. 0 0 ( on mine I actually left in blank)

G.OPTIONAL: If you have siblings, parents, or adult children with

the same principal residence who are combining their income

with yours by submitting Form I-864A, enter the number here 0 0 (blank)

h. Add together lines and enter the number here. Household Size: 0 4

I really don't have suggestions on how to fix the issue,but If I were you I would send my own corrected answer so your case won't be delayed any longer by another RFE.

I have filled my AOS and helped my sister with hers and neither of them got an RFE,I filled both of them with 00 on that section.I really have no idea how your lawyer came up with an R and in all honesty I would definitively get rid of him.

I had an student visa screwed up in the past by a lawyer and I know how frustrating it is,learned the lesson and filled AOS by myself.

Anyways I hope I helped you with this info,good luck and wish everything gets sorted out.

Thank you for sharing your opinion LinabFrank.

A lot of people feel resentful here about lawyers , but that is the wrong position. It is not different from having negative views of entire race or ethnic group of people. You can't judge all people by their occupation.

I still don't know if my lawyer made a mistake or not.

I have seen him in person today and he assured me that he filed the form correctly and was

doing his job for 25 years already. He said this is not going to ever trigger a denial of I-485.

I can't find anything bad about him on internet. Surely he would have had enough time to do enough damage in

25 years for someone at least make one post about what he did to their case.

On the other hand I am skeptical. What IF he made an error?

I know I will win my case in the end if there is a denial due to such a typo or an error , but it is a nightmare ,of course, to start

a litigious battle in EOIR that may take year or two to finish when everything could be completed in just a 6 months.

That would definitely piss me off a lot and I would, no mistake about it, make this law firm accountable before the body of its' peers (there is special grievance procedure to force your lawyer answer before licensing board why he negligently mishandled your case, if he ever does such a thing).

But this is the last thing I want to do. I have family, two kids and I need to focus on them , doing what is best for us instead of wasting

countless hours writing and filing briefs proving that 1 + 1 equals 2.

So, I hope those of you who say that he already screwed my case are wrong.

Hopefully this, even if a typo, can be addressed during interview, since

the Aytes memo of Feb 16 2005 clearly states that denial can't be issued unless there are factual questions of legitimacy or eligibility for benefit

(TYPO is not factual basis to deny a benefit, especially if it is obvious from preponderance of evidence that it IS a typo [that is IF he indeed filled out that part of the form incorrect, despite his assurances today to the contrary]).

At this moment I think I will just mail Page 3 of the same form filled out by my spouse yesterday , with the cover letter where I as applicant will explain that

this is being sent to USCIS just to clarify ANY possible questions about it (and hopefully it will be accepted into record).

In the end whatever must happen will happen.

I feel more confident today than yesterday that all will be fine as far as the discussed portion of the form is concerned. And if it doesn't then it is my destiny to get into prolonged legal battle (which I know I will would in the end, but can't fathom why would anyone be so unlucky to have to go through for such a silly reason).

I thank everyone for sharing your opinion and will post my timeline from time to time, whenever there is a change in status. In the meantime I welcome anyone who had successfully sailed through but had similar experiences in past to share their perspectives on how the case could possibly develop from this point of view or simply share their experience (was anyone denied for an obvious typo in the form? Did you then fix the error via MTR I-290 or did you have to go to EOIR and explain this to the Judge , etc. ).

Best Regards,

AOS Applicant

[jdh 103]

Hiring lawyer is not a waste of money. A lot of you have submitted your BC and other evidence yet got hit with initial RFE. What if you file all the correct forms yet some new employee who reviews your makes mistake and denies you and then claims you never provided anything ? Who is going to testify and prove you did what you had to ? You vs the CIS employee? Good luck with that!

Only those who do not understand law or how infinite are ways the things could turn out wrong will claim that hiring an attorney is a waste of time.

In fact, if your case is a salvage you no longer need attorney , no attorney will fix the sure loser case. But a perfectly, 100% winner case could easily get denied by error, due to millions of things that could possibly go wrong, including an improper check in the box asking how many heads you have.

Excuse me? You come here asking for help, you get an almost unanimous answer that your lawyer screwed up, and not only do you still question the "expertise" but you also slam and mock the hundreds and thousands of us who believe hiring a lawyer in most immigration cases is unnecessary?

Where do you come from and what is your education that you as an immigrant are so confident in your knowledge of the United States legal system and it's workings?

In fact, your assumption that a 'salvage' case is the time you don't need a lawyer is ridiculous. Those are the times when you should consult a lawyer because they may be able to help you find an answer you were unaware of. For most cases, especially for English speaking applicants, immigration forms are simple and hiring a lawyer would, indeed, be a waste of money. The instructions given by USCIS are, for the most part, clear and if that isn't easy enough for you to figure out you have forums like this that provide not only experienced answers but example forms to walk you through.

Name one case of a person on here that has filed and then had a USCIS employee claim that they never filed anything. Beyond that, even if it could possibly happen, you ask who is going to testify for you? Your evidence - an exact copy of everything you sent, signed and dated, a receipt from your package being sent with a guaranteed arrival tracking number, and cashed checks from USCIS.

I believe you put far too much confidence in a lawyer saving your bacon should it all hit the fan. Even with a hired lawyer, the owness for your petition is on you. Neither they nor the judge is going to be concerned with who your lawyer is or the fact it was, according to you, "his fault".

[VanessaTony 3,567]

A lot of people feel resentful here about lawyers , but that is the wrong position. It is not different from having negative views of entire race or ethnic group of people. You can't judge all people by their occupation.

I still don't know if my lawyer made a mistake or not.

I'm not resentful about lawyers. I know many many lawyers and as people they're fine but immigration wise, they're typically unnecessary and I've noticed the ones here in the US specifically tend to make mistakes that cost people time and money. They charge ridiculous fees for having their assistant fill in the forms when you can do it yourself. People here aren't resentful of lawyers, we're wary because we've seen what happens to people when lawyers screw stuff up. In fact there was a lady a week or so ago that found out her lawyer (for her K1) was didn't include a document clearly stated in the instructions, told the girl she wasn't supposed to look into this herself, and told her that an I-130 was NECESSARY for a K1 AOS and was going to charge her an outrageous sum for it (totally NOT needed for a K1 AOS). Your post also shows your lawyer does things wrong and causes YOU unnecessary stress when the whole point of having a lawyer is to make it easier on you so while your lawyer might be a "nice bloke", he's officially one of the bad ones for not being able to follow simple form instructions.

Your lawyer DID make a mistake. There is absolutely 100% no question about that. The ONLY question is whether USCIS will hold it against you.

I have AOSd and did so without RFE or interview (one of the benefits of a K1) and my I-864 had "0" in the spouse field, as is specified in the instructions for "DO NOT COUNT ANYONE TWICE". For the purposes of the form you are the immigrant, not her spouse.

**Edit - you also haven't answered. What visa are you AOSing from? and

Edited March 1, 2012 by Vanessa&Tony