Possible Red Flag

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Yeah, I took a language acquisition course and they said that RS teaches you vocabulary and Pimsleur teaches you to be conversational and I can vouch for that personally.

The problem with Pimsleur is that there's no written material to go along with the CD's. In fact, they discourage you from trying to learn to read the language, especially if it's written in a Latin style alphabet, because they think it will only confuse you when it comes to pronunciation. That's all well and good, and you can certainly learn how to ask where the bathroom is using near perfect inflection and tone, but you'll have no idea which sounds actually constitute the words you've learned. Vietnamese is somewhat mono-syllabic, though not as strict as Japanese for example. Words are made up of one or more syllables, and the syllables are written as distinct "words". It can be confusing when you first see these syllables written down and try to correlate them with the spoken sounds you've learned. For example, you might learn to say "Nhà vệ sinh ở đâu?", and learn that this means "Where is the restroom?", but would you know which combination of syllables is "restroom"? Would you be able to compose your own sentences based on what you'd learned?

I think Pimsleur is great for tourists. What I especially like is that they don't just endlessly repeat the same recording of the same native speaker saying the same thing over and over. Each example is a fresh recording, so you get to hear a lot of the subtle nuances each time a phrase is spoken. I would like to see that approach extended to teaching the complete language, including study of grammar and especially study of the written language.

FWIW, I had spent some time with Pimsleur before my second trip to Vietnam. I only had a couple of opportunities to use phrases I'd learned, and they were understood without any problems. There were numerous times I wanted to extrapolate from those phrases, and compose a new phrase, but I had no idea how to do it based on what I'd learned.

[luckytxn 2,265]

Reminds me. I need to start learning some conversational Vietnamese. I was told I am going back this year for a few weeks. I can order a few foods easily.

[phil09 8]

Vietnamese is somewhat mono-syllabic, though not as strict as Japanese for example. Words are made up of one or more syllables, and the syllables are written as distinct "words".

Vietnamese is mono-syllabic. I can't think of any word that's made up of more than one syllable (I am a native speaker).

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Vietnamese is mono-syllabic. I can't think of any word that's made up of more than one syllable (I am a native speaker).

It "sounds" multi-syllabic to Westerners because it's a tonal language. The tonal changes within a single syllabic word, if not repeated with high precision, can make or break the comprehension to the listener.

I work in an office with four VK, and had numerous heated discussion on the same topic. Several of them struggle with English words such as "pork", which they pronounce as "poke", yet I understand what they are saying within the context of the conversation. Yet when I say something in Vietnamese and make even the slightest error in pitch they look with a catatonic stare as if I am speaking in gibberish.

We agreed on three conclusions.

1. Vietnamese words MUST be spoken with high tonal accuracy, The majority of words differ only by a very slight change in pitch.

2. Context is extremely important in Vietnamese language, and words can change meaning depending on how they are grouped with other words. Because of that It's not enough to simply learn a few words, you have to learn the correct context. For example the word "Bánh" which i was told meant "cake"; that meaning only lasted until I order some Bánh mì or Bánh xèo and the confusion returned. My coworkers explained that Banh is more of a generic noun and transmogrifies when placed next a another "food' noun. Vietnamese is filled with these "generic" words requiring the student to not only learn the root word meaning, but all the derivatives.

3. This final conclusion was the hardest to get them to admit (but they final did). Vietnamese are NOT used to hearing non-natives speak their language. We in the United States are used to hearing people butcher our language because of foreign accents, and we have become quite adept at filtering through the mispronunciations. The Vietnamese deal with a few regional accents, but overall go through life hearing their language spoken almost flawlessly. When they hear a misspoken Vietnamese word they don't "try" to understand, they just reject the word (and the whole sentence) and ask the speaker to repeat. Learning to listen through an accent is a skill, and one that most Vietnamese have never had to develop to any degree. Think about a new employee in your workplace that has a heavy accent, you struggle at first to understand him, but as time goes on our listening skill kicks in we adapt to his accent and the communication flows easier.

To any Vietnamese reading his: Please don't take offense from this as that was not my intention. Vietnamese is a beautiful language and one of the simplest to read. I am also not saying that English is a piece of cake (To,Two, Too !). I just want to throw out my theory on why Westerners struggle with the Vietnamese language, and why Vietnamese struggle to understand us when we speak their language. The language is certainly learnable as that American guy on "Paris By Night" has an amazing command of Vietnamese.

Edited February 19, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[ScottThuy 140]

It "sounds" multi-syllabic to Westerners because it's a tonal language. The tonal changes within a single syllabic word, if not repeated with high precision, can make or break the comprehension to the listener.

I work in an office with four VK, and had numerous heated discussion on the same topic. Several of them struggle with English words such as "pork", which they pronounce as "poke", yet I understand what they are saying within the context of the conversation. Yet when I say something in Vietnamese and make even the slightest error in pitch they look with a catatonic stare as if I am speaking in gibberish.

We agreed on three conclusions.

1. Vietnamese words MUST be spoken with high tonal accuracy, The majority of words differ only by a very slight change in pitch.

2. Context is extremely important in Vietnamese language, and words can change meaning depending on how they are grouped with other words. Because of that It's not enough to simply learn a few words, you have to learn the correct context. For example the word "Bánh" which i was told meant "cake"; that meaning only lasted until I order some Bánh mì or Bánh xèo and the confusion returned. My coworkers explained that Banh is more of a generic noun and transmogrifies when placed next a another "food' noun. Vietnamese is filled with these "generic" words requiring the student to not only learn the root word meaning, but all the derivatives.

3. This final conclusion was the hardest to get them to admit (but they final did). Vietnamese are NOT used to hearing non-natives speak their language. We in the United States are used to hearing people butcher our language because of foreign accents, and we have become quite adept at filtering through the mispronunciations. The Vietnamese deal with a few regional accents, but overall go through life hearing their language spoken almost flawlessly. When they hear a misspoken Vietnamese word they don't "try" to understand, they just reject the word (and the whole sentence) and ask the speaker to repeat. Learning to listen through an accent is a skill, and one that most Vietnamese have never had to develop to any degree. Think about a new employee in your workplace that has a heavy accent, you struggle at first to understand him, but as time goes on our listening skill kicks in we adapt to his accent and the communication flows easier.

To any Vietnamese reading his: Please don't take offense from this as that was not my intention. Vietnamese is a beautiful language and one of the simplest to read. I am also not saying that English is a piece of cake (To,Two, Too !). I just want to throw out my theory on why Westerners struggle with the Vietnamese language, and why Vietnamese struggle to understand us when we speak their language. The language is certainly learnable as that American guy on "Paris By Night" has an amazing command of Vietnamese.

Its often compared to singing.. if the notes (tonals) are not right.. the song just doesnt sond the same...

[crea78 0]

With Vietnamese being a tonal language, how do all of you who are currently married able to speak with your SO in her native language?

Edited February 19, 2012 by crea78

[brian_n_phuong 193]

With Vietnamese being a tonal language, how do all of you who are currently married able to speak with your SO in her native language?

I didn't say it couldn't be learned, it just takes a lot of patience on the part of the student and even more so for the teacher.

Any Language can be learned through practice.

Toss the books and have your fiancee communicate with you in Tieng Viet one day a week. When you are FORCED to speak, you WILL learn !

Edited February 19, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[dalatian 4]

I didn't say it couldn't be learned, it just takes a lot of patience on the part of the student and even more so for the teacher.

Any Language can be learned through practice.

Toss the books and have your fiancee communicate with you in Tieng Viet one day a week. When you are FORCED to speak, you WILL learn !

When I lived in San Jose, there were these Jehovah witness folks coming to my house to preach their belief to us. They spoke exceptionally good Vietnamese, albeit with a southern accent. One with such a perfect command of the language that if I hadn't seen it coming from a blond-haired, blue-eyed guy from Wyoming with my own eyes, i would have thought I was conversing with a real Vietnamese just off the boat.

Unlike English, it is not easy to guess the meaning of an off-pronounced Vietnamese word. I can safely say this since I have tried to understand both non-native English speakers speaking English and non-native Vietnamese speakers speaking Vietnamese. The tonal aspect of the language makes it very hard to pick up mis-pronounced words. This is true to even among Vietnamese from different regions. I grew up listening to some folks from Binh Tri Thien, yet when I passed by their region and watched the news on their local TV, I thought the news anchor was speaking Cambodian. Seriously!

[brian_n_phuong 193]

Reminds me. I need to start learning some conversational Vietnamese. I was told I am going back this year for a few weeks. I can order a few foods easily.

Order a basket of greasy deep-fried thịt cầy

Tastes like chicken !!

Edited February 20, 2012 by brian_n_phuong

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

With Vietnamese being a tonal language, how do all of you who are currently married able to speak with your SO in her native language?

I speak very little Vietnamese with my wife. I tried to speak more when she first arrived in the US, but it's really not necessary anymore because she speaks far more English now than I do Vietnamese. I've learned to understand a lot more than I used to, but I'm still terrible at speaking. Unless I move to Vietnam I doubt I'll ever have a strong grasp of the language. I don't have time to study it now, and I'm not in a position where I'm forced to learn it.

I agree with Brian's assessment. There are tens of millions of immigrants in the US for whom English is a second language, and most Americans have gotten used to hearing English spoken with poor pronunciation and bad grammar. We've learned to adapt because we have to converse with non-native speakers everyday. On the other hand, very few non-Vietnamese people ever have a reason for learning to speak Vietnamese, so they rarely hear a non-native speaker try to speak their language.

Its often compared to singing.. if the notes (tonals) are not right.. the song just doesnt sond the same...

Ok, this one has been driving me crazy. Since tones are so critically important that they're literally inscribed in their written language, how the hell do they understand what someone is saying when they're singing? Doesn't that completely screw up the tones?

[ScottThuy 140]

I speak very little Vietnamese with my wife. I tried to speak more when she first arrived in the US, but it's really not necessary anymore because she speaks far more English now than I do Vietnamese. I've learned to understand a lot more than I used to, but I'm still terrible at speaking. Unless I move to Vietnam I doubt I'll ever have a strong grasp of the language. I don't have time to study it now, and I'm not in a position where I'm forced to learn it.

I agree with Brian's assessment. There are tens of millions of immigrants in the US for whom English is a second language, and most Americans have gotten used to hearing English spoken with poor pronunciation and bad grammar. We've learned to adapt because we have to converse with non-native speakers everyday. On the other hand, very few non-Vietnamese people ever have a reason for learning to speak Vietnamese, so they rarely hear a non-native speaker try to speak their language.

Ok, this one has been driving me crazy. Since tones are so critically important that they're literally inscribed in their written language, how the hell do they understand what someone is saying when they're singing? Doesn't that completely screw up the tones?

Maybe thats why traditional VN songs are so popular.. it aint easy getting the words to mesh with the music... A friend compared it to playing guitar chords one time.. and then we added the wahwah bar to the discussion.. there are those highs, lows, sharps and so many more...

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Maybe thats why traditional VN songs are so popular.. it aint easy getting the words to mesh with the music... A friend compared it to playing guitar chords one time.. and then we added the wahwah bar to the discussion.. there are those highs, lows, sharps and so many more...

I play guitar, and I don't think the wah is a good analogy. A wah changes the harmonic mix, but it doesn't change the basic pitch of the notes being played. Maybe a whammy or pitch shifter pedal would be a better analogy.

I've seen this numerous times. Minor errors in the tone of the spoken words seem to throw them off completely, but the same words sung to a melody don't phase them a bit. I've asked my wife several times why this is the case, and she says she can't explain it. My theory is that the inflection within each word is just as important if not MORE important than the relative tone of the word. I'll probably never know unless I get to the point where I can understand both spoken and sung Vietnamese.

[luckytxn 2,265]

Order a basket of greasy deep-fried thịt cầy

Tastes like chicken !!

I have eaten dog in 3 countries now. It doesn't taste like chicken.

[brian_n_phuong 193]

I have eaten dog in 3 countries now. It doesn't taste like chicken.

I've eaten crow in at least 12 countries, and still partake on occasion. Crow seems to be quite an international dish and usually served with a side of footinmouth.

[luckytxn 2,265]

I've eaten crow in at least 12 countries, and still partake on occasion. Crow seems to be quite an international dish and usually served with a side of footinmouth.

I may have eaten crow in at least that amount of countries.