Heartbroken :(

[VanessaTony 3,567]

You don't reason with a manipulator. You give them choices. Those choices have to be enforceable. Never make empty threats. If you aren't prepared to follow through, don't say it. But don't waste your breath arguing, pleading, or trying to convince them. Set the condition and shut up. No matter how much effort they put into trying to wear you down - the conversation is closed. The only thing a manipulator understands is consequences.

I completely agree with everything you said and this part struck me the most. My MIL is a master manipulator (and a narcissist). She is a very bad person and did some very bad things to us (mostly to her son, my husband). The BEST thing we did was tell her what we needed from her if she wanted to be involved in our lives and until she does that we will not be involved with her in any way. It is coming up on 2 years since we have spoken to her and we've only seen her maybe twice (and we live in the same small town). She has tried SO many different ways to get us to talk to her again (except the ONE thing we asked - apologise), its all part of the manipulation. She won't do what we need because she needs the control.

The OP's husband will probably do the same. He will try and find ways to control the situation by not doing exactly what she has asked but close enough so he tries to convince her he tried. If she concedes that he "tried" to do what she asked but just "couldn't" (which is typically a lie and just another manipulation) then he'll know that her stance isn't set and he'll just ignore her the next time. He's already shown that her opinion about this situation is irrelevant to him which shows that SHE is irrelevant to him.

OP you need to set realistic and achievable goals. Not "stop talking to her all together" (he's like an addict and cold turkey won't typically work) but "If she is truly just a friend I need to meet her." You have tried telling him how much this upsets you and he doesn't care. The problem with telling him you want to meet her is if he is lying to her about you (usually the case with affairs) then he'll have a chance to "prep" her and it won't go well. I personally would call her though and speak to her. Or meet up with her.

[perfect 39]

....and if HE is a narcissist - consequences don't work! They don't care who they hurt or how - it's all about being in control.

My husband (a narcissist) did a similar thing with me as OP's (emotionally unfaithful (and kissing) and even made arrangements to communicate with one woman in such a way that he thought I wouldn't find out) I called his bluff and pretended to be her communicating with him to see how far he would go....and communicated with her to tell her the actual truth that he was married and she needed to step away - actually she was mortified and has to my knowledge stayed away... and still even after 4 years (I forgave him) he doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Good luck - you have to do what's right for you - but based on my own research and experience - don't expect things to change! They just find ways of hiding things better....

<sigh>

[rlogan 2,036]

I completely agree with everything you said and this part struck me the most. My MIL is a master manipulator (and a narcissist). She is a very bad person and did some very bad things to us (mostly to her son, my husband). The BEST thing we did was tell her what we needed from her if she wanted to be involved in our lives and until she does that we will not be involved with her in any way. It is coming up on 2 years since we have spoken to her and we've only seen her maybe twice (and we live in the same small town). She has tried SO many different ways to get us to talk to her again (except the ONE thing we asked - apologise), its all part of the manipulation. She won't do what we need because she needs the control.

The OP's husband will probably do the same. He will try and find ways to control the situation by not doing exactly what she has asked but close enough so he tries to convince her he tried. If she concedes that he "tried" to do what she asked but just "couldn't" (which is typically a lie and just another manipulation) then he'll know that her stance isn't set and he'll just ignore her the next time. He's already shown that her opinion about this situation is irrelevant to him which shows that SHE is irrelevant to him.

Hey, good for you guys! The manipulator is going to blame you for this of course and play the victim. Look how unreasonable you are. A normal person can apologize the instant it is pointed out they offended someone - and they also apologize just because it makes the other person feel better regardless of whether they even think they did much wrong.

OP you need to set realistic and achievable goals. Not "stop talking to her all together" (he's like an addict and cold turkey won't typically work) but "If she is truly just a friend I need to meet her." You have tried telling him how much this upsets you and he doesn't care. The problem with telling him you want to meet her is if he is lying to her about you (usually the case with affairs) then he'll have a chance to "prep" her and it won't go well. I personally would call her though and speak to her. Or meet up with her.

Yeah, if she lets her manipulator know she is going to call or visit then he'll pull out all the stops to control the outcome.

perect - we're in agreement. Giving them choices does not mean they choose the one that we would most like. We would most like for them to transform into an empathetic partner, but that isn't going to happen. Vanessa%Tony are a great example of refusing to cow to their manipulator, and the choice they gave them meant no contact. My family has had the same thing happen with brother & sister going years, right to the grave without contact.

Unfortunately with affairs you can have normal people turn into monsters because the lust and thrill over-rides all sanity. You did the right thing by not allowing your manipulator to control both his women by keeping them apart.

[DeeDee&Sam 68]

well....me and my ex used to hang out a lot and text and call eachother and i didnt really tell my husband cause he's more jealous than anyone else i know. well....in the end my ex got angry, jealous and said he'll beat my husband up LOL. well...the moral is that i wasnt cheating, i was just preserving a friendship that ended anyway. i told my husband after a while and he was very ok with it. they hate eachother but he knows i love him. you can try knowing the girl and see whats going on

[Laure&Colin 558]

well....me and my ex used to hang out a lot and text and call eachother and i didnt really tell my husband cause he's more jealous than anyone else i know. well....in the end my ex got angry, jealous and said he'll beat my husband up LOL. well...the moral is that i wasnt cheating, i was just preserving a friendship that ended anyway. i told my husband after a while and he was very ok with it. they hate eachother but he knows i love him. you can try knowing the girl and see whats going on

Many people would find it extremely disrespectful if their spouse insisted on maintaining a so called "friendship" with someone who's jealous and threatens to beat them up... I'm most definitely one of them!

[VanessaTony 3,567]

well....me and my ex used to hang out a lot and text and call eachother and i didnt really tell my husband cause he's more jealous than anyone else i know.

So you knew a situation would upset your husband (even though it wasn't cheating) and did it behind his back. It may as well have been cheating.. It was very disrespectful of you to do this and I would never do that to my husband. He too is extremely jealous and going behind his back like that would do more harm than good.

[rlogan 2,036]

the moral is that i wasnt cheating, i was just preserving a friendship that ended anyway. i told my husband after a while and he was very ok with it. they hate eachother but he knows i love him. you can try knowing the girl and see whats going on

Whenever we're rationalizing, and trying to make a molehill out of a mountain, we stick words called "minimizers" in there. What I've learned about this through study is that when people don't think there is a reason to be manipulative like this, they don't do it. For example, they say "I was preserving a friendship" instead of "just" preserving a friendship. The other interesting thing is the magical transformation of ex-lover to friend. We do exactly the same thing with current extramarital lovers: "just a friend". We use both the minimizer and change them from sex and passion to book club interest.

The reason we express things without a minimizer is that the motivation stands on its own two feet as something important and justified. It isn't something you want to make seem insignificant. It's a fascinating insight and one you should watch for in a relationship. Listen for minimizers like "just" and "only". This is your spouse telling you they aren't proud of what they've done. But they've made a strategic decision: one decision would be to validate the feelings they are implicitly admitting are justified in the spouse. The other decision is to attack the spouse covertly by insinuating they are unreasonable for their feelings: make the spouse feel even worse for the bad feelings they already have.

The thing that is fundamentally different for DeeDee is that she told her husband about it instead of the husband discovering it himself. That changes everything. This is the acknowledgement that the husband is more important than the covert relationship. So of course the husband is OK with that.

Edited February 21, 2012 by rlogan

[DeeDee&Sam 68]

excuse me? i even wonder how some people DARE to tell me that im disrespectful and judge my decision of preserving a FRIENDSHIP that was even before me and my ex got togheter. if you people have so closed minds to see everything as emotional cheating then you are completely nuts.

and that was off topic cause i have no intention to relate my experience with the OP's

[psychasthenia 9]

The reason we express things without a minimizer is that the motivation stands on its own two feet as something important and justified. It isn't something you want to make seem insignificant. It's a fascinating insight and one you should watch for in a relationship. Listen for minimizers like "just" and "only". This is your spouse telling you they aren't proud of what they've done. But they've made a strategic decision: one decision would be to validate the feelings they are implicitly admitting are justified in the spouse. The other decision is to attack the spouse covertly by insinuating they are unreasonable for their feelings: make the spouse feel even worse for the bad feelings they already have.

Rlogan, you have such a dense writing style that I sometimes struggle to comprehend what you write.

Also, as the resident psychologist on the forum, you would probably know the difference between manipulative behaviors and manipulators. You classify people left and right as manipulators when you know very little about them or their relationships.

"The reason we express things without a minimizer is that the motivation stands on its own two feet as something important and justified. It isn't something you want to make seem insignificant. It's a fascinating insight and one you should watch for in a relationship. Listen for minimizers like "just" and "only". This is your spouse telling you they aren't proud of what they've done."

Interesting insight. Both people who manipulate and people who are on the receiving end of that behavior minimize. There was one poster who wrote about her partner being a narcissist, but she continues to be in a relationship with him. What is this called?

"But they've made a strategic decision: one decision would be to validate the feelings they are implicitly admitting are justified in the spouse. The other decision is to attack the spouse covertly by insinuating they are unreasonable for their feelings: make the spouse feel even worse for the bad feelings they already have."

My goodness, you can;t attack someone covertly when you invalidate their feelings.

Other than this, carry on...

Edited February 23, 2012 by psychasthenia