Why Apple says it can't build an iPhone in the US.

[SMR 368]

Just some food for thought on the Germans,

I work in a pathology laboratory and the two suppliers of the majority of our equipment are german companies: Leica Biosystems and Ventana medical which is a subsidiary of Roche group based in germanic Switzerland. There is a huge market for german equipment in hospitals. The only competitor in our field that poses any thread is Dako a danish company with a manufacturing plant in California. They profitably and successfully manufacture in the US paying American workers real wages.

I have an iPhone and a macbook both of which I love btw

That's good to hear. Obviously more complicated, higher margin, more specialized, lower volume equipment is easier to manufacture in 1st world environments. I would venture to guess that the employees building this equipment aren't entry level. They are probably flexible and learning new skills and open to acquiring new knowledge and a changing job description. I'm not saying that there isn't hope. I'm saying is that we need to figure out what we can do better than the Chinese/Indians/etc. and then learn to do that. We live in a world today where most any job may find itself outsourced or obsolete. You need to be constantly learning, growing, and thinking. Otherwise you can expect to either make what they make in China or get used to asking if you want fries with that.

If a non union member wants to take the companies package then fine. But I know from experience that usually it ends up bad. First there are the warnings then there is the sliced tires, and if that doesn't do the trick ...worse ...way worse.

Union shop means just that...union shop. Your either with or against. If a company wants to make their shop non union that's one thing, but to try and mix and match union with non union ...it doesn't work...at least not on our trade. Again make the shop all non union and no problem, or make it a union shop...even better, but if you try to mix and match in places like Oregon, California, Washington state, Michigan, Ohio, NY, etc... chances are someone is going to the hospital. A$$, gas, and grass...nobody rides for free.

So what you're saying is that unions are basically organized crime fronts that bully workers into giving up part of their wages. How is being pushed around by a union boss any better than being pushed around by an employer?

[Susita 175]

Found this article about Germany. Very interesting, especially this part. I think this makes a huge difference & refers to what a few posters were saying.

The Mittelstand now employ millions of people and seem to put a higher priority on employing Germans than do publicly traded multinational giants. Many Germans believe that since the Mittelstand are privately owned, they focus more on long-term growth than short-term profits.

The Secrets of Germany's Success

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

So what you're saying is that unions are basically organized crime fronts that bully workers into giving up part of their wages. How is being pushed around by a union boss any better than being pushed around by an employer?

Not at all. An average shop workers dues are around $35 a month which is a very small price to pay for having bargaining power. A union is like a football team where everyone is on the same page. If you have a few people that don't want to be team players then it makes for problems. Your either on the team or your not.

With that said that are some unions who imo abuse their bargaining power. Longshoreman's union, Boeing machinist, and up until a few years ago the UAW. Those are just three that come to mind who got overly greedy and took advantage of their bargaining power. The UAW has took pay cuts and benefit cuts, but those other two I listed have not to my knowledge. The longshoreman's union is easily the most powerful union in the US. They have two locals instead of many locals....one West coast and one East coast. That gives them a big edge.

[SMR 368]

Not at all. An average shop workers dues are around $35 a month which is a very small price to pay for having bargaining power. A union is like a football team where everyone is on the same page. If you have a few people that don't want to be team players then it makes for problems. Your either on the team or your not.

With that said that are some unions who imo abuse their bargaining power. Longshoreman's union, Boeing machinist, and up until a few years ago the UAW. Those are just three that come to mind who got overly greedy and took advantage of their bargaining power. The UAW has took pay cuts and benefit cuts, but those other two I listed have not to my knowledge. The longshoreman's union is easily the most powerful union in the US. They have two locals instead of many locals....one West coast and one East coast. That gives them a big edge.

And the mafia really does protect you from other criminals (as well as the police in many countries) as long as you pay your dues. And if you're a small fish, those dues might not be very much. The size of the dues and the tangibility of the benefit are not the point of the comparison. Unions are like the mafia because you either do what they want, go somewhere else, or face certain consequences. You said as much in your post.

Also, I hate to be that guy, but "your" is not a contraction of "you are."

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

And the mafia really does protect you from other criminals (as well as the police in many countries) as long as you pay your dues. And if you're a small fish, those dues might not be very much. The size of the dues and the tangibility of the benefit are not the point of the comparison. Unions are like the mafia because you either do what they want, go somewhere else, or face certain consequences. You said as much in your post.

Also, I hate to be that guy, but "your" is not a contraction of "you are."

I don't know where you get "mafia" out of my post. All organizations that I know of have some set of rules. Homeowners associations for example. If you paint your house purple, or have garbage strewn all over your yard you face consequences. It's the same with any organization. Is the union suppose to protect workers rights including safety? You bet it is. Does the union run on air? Not hardly hence the reason workers pay dues. The union has been good to me and I can't complain. Right now our guys (pipe fitters) are working for 80% of wages on a lot of jobs here in Alaska. It was more or less a pay cut in order to keep those jobs. How does our work compare to non union pipe fitters? We have half the injuries which saves the companies on insurance and fines, and our finished work has a far less chance of screwing up which saves money.

[slim 1,525]

You think a company that's going t*ts up should give themselves (white collar) raises when that company is losing money? Are you for fckng real? I'm being serious here.

There's companies out there that are going t*ts up because of ####### business decisions made and they give themselves (white collars) millions of dollars in bonuses before the company goes completely t*ts up and your b*tching about peeps making $12 an hour? Give me some of whatever your taking...I'm low on booze here atm. So your ok with a bunch of lying white collar thieves lying to their shareholder when they know the ship is sinking yet it's cool when they give themselves big fat ####### raises and bonuses.

Down below is just a few examples...google will find you thousands more in a heart beat. Someone is feeding you a line of bs and whoever it is seems to be doing a bang up job.

Now if you want to talk about companies that were driven into the ground by the white collars making the decisions only to have it bailed out by the actual workers then we can do that to. My grandpa worked for one for close to twenty years aka Tacoma Boat. Google will show that one also.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/02/25/news/doc4b87179136d0a794710904.txt

Kmart CEO ordered to pay more than $10M

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/21/ceo-compensation-10-ceos-golden-parachutes-100-million_n_1217176.html

10 CEOs With Golden Parachutes Of Over $100 Million: GMI

What a company does with it's money is none of my business. If I don't like what they're doing I don't have to work there. I don't have to shop there. I don't have to invest in it.

It amazes me that some folks think they have the right to tell others what to do with their money. When government gets involved (as in the cases of most of the CEOs you posted) it only exacerbates the problem and allows CEOs to take more. If you don't like what they're doing... don't spend your money on those companies. It's pretty simple, really.

You missed it entirely.

The white collars up top know when a company is going to sink for good and so what do they do? Do they try to save the ship or do they loot the ship for all it's worth?

Answer that one please. Do you steal your shareholders blind and screw your employees at the same time, or do you do the right thing?

I don't have shareholders. I don't have employees. Regardless, I don't see how anyone being greedy in business is screwing over anyone else. The very nature of business is greed. Don't you show up to work every day to make the most money you can?

Agreed as long as each non union individual separately negotiates his or hers own wages and benefits. In no way shape or form should they automatically get what the union members negotiated on. Why should the union break ground for scabs? Nothing is for free and there's a reason union members pay those dues...and they aren't to make life easier for someone who wants to ride on the backs of the union for free. It doesn't work that way in the north and in the west,..only in right to work states like New Mexico, Colorado, etc..

So it's OK for the unions.... just not the CEOs?

The union EARNS it's members, which is better for the members. Competition. Free market pressures.

Unions should be able to set their ewages, employers should be able to set their wages and the government should GTFO!

Once we eliminate the government and determine that membership is voluntary what happens after that is what happens. Unions that offer a good value will thrive. Unions that do not will fail. Why would anyone want it differently?

Hey, that's not fair!

If a non union member wants to take the companies package then fine. But I know from experience that usually it ends up bad. First there are the warnings then there is the sliced tires, and if that doesn't do the trick ...worse ...way worse.

Wow. What happened to all that fairness and equality you were talking about? What about the CEOs that "do the right thing?"

So what you're saying is that unions are basically organized crime fronts

That's exactly what he's saying. He's also saying that's better than CEOs who are greedy.

And the mafia really does protect you from other criminals (as well as the police in many countries) as long as you pay your dues. And if you're a small fish, those dues might not be very much. The size of the dues and the tangibility of the benefit are not the point of the comparison. Unions are like the mafia because you either do what they want, go somewhere else, or face certain consequences. You said as much in your post.

Unions use force to coerce corporations into paying more. It IS organized crime that was made legal. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes illegal (as we're seeing with all the right to work states now) in the near future.

I don't know where you get "mafia" out of my post. All organizations that I know of have some set of rules.

The mafia has lots of rules! So does the government. So do the CEOs that screw over their employees.

The problem with rules is you can use them to do bad things to. "But I followed all the rules."

It's kind of like a guy who sits at home for several months a year doing nothing while other people pay him. "But I followed all the rules." That doesn't make it right, does it?

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

What a company does with it's money is none of my business. If I don't like what they're doing I don't have to work there. I don't have to shop there. I don't have to invest in it.

It amazes me that some folks think they have the right to tell others what to do with their money. When government gets involved (as in the cases of most of the CEOs you posted) it only exacerbates the problem and allows CEOs to take more. If you don't like what they're doing... don't spend your money on those companies. It's pretty simple, really.

I don't have shareholders. I don't have employees. Regardless, I don't see how anyone being greedy in business is screwing over anyone else. The very nature of business is greed. Don't you show up to work every day to make the most money you can?

Who gives two sh*ts if you have shareholder or not? I don't.

So what I'm getting is your not a capitalist. Capitalism is all about making money. When you lie to your share holders while running a company into the ground and steal said monies from your share holders (profits and investments), that isn't capitalism, it's theft. Shareholders want to make money, they don't make money when the people running the company run said company into the ground while giving themselves and an elite few raises and bonuses while the ship is sinking. That's not good business, it's theft.

It does affect the employees and shareholders when this happens and it happens a lot. It has happened on several occasions before any government bail outs other than maybe the one to Chrysler back in the early 80's when Iaccoca took over the reigns. That was one company at the time. Government bailouts didn't become common until much later.

So it's OK for the unions.... just not the CEOs?

Are the unions calling the shots on how the company is ran? Not hardly. Do you know why the CEO's and upper crust get paid so much? Because it's their job to make sure that company makes $$$$$$$$. They do the marketing, the engineering if it's called for, they make the business decisions and that's why they make the big bucks. When a company goes t*ts up because they failed to keep up with the times, or if they did a ####### job on marketing their product...it's on them, not "Joe Worker". Joe Worker doesn't make those decisions, Joe Worker does what he or she is told to do. You want to make the big bucks for making the big decisions then do it right but don't steal the company blind while doing a sh*t job.

Hey, that's not fair!

No idea what that means other than do your job and do it well for the most money you can make.

Wow. What happened to all that fairness and equality you were talking about? What about the CEOs that "do the right thing?"

I'm guessing you never belonged to a union and if you did it wasn't a skilled trades union. It's all about team work. Nothing to do with CEO's unless said CEO's are killing the company by not doing their job like they are paid to do...and they get paid well...some in the millions.

That's exactly what he's saying. He's also saying that's better than CEOs who are greedy.

Post where I said that or save it.

Unions use force to coerce corporations into paying more. It IS organized crime that was made legal. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes illegal (as we're seeing with all the right to work states now) in the near future.

Most of your right to work states make sub par living wages. If you want to afford to buy a house, car, feed your family, etc... you want a livable wage. Not all of us want to be on our knee's making third world country wages. Do the unions bargain? Ya they do. Can a company kick the unions out...you betcha, it happens more often than naught.

The mafia has lots of rules! So does the government. So do the CEOs that screw over their employees.

The problem with rules is you can use them to do bad things to. "But I followed all the rules."

It's kind of like a guy who sits at home for several months a year doing nothing while other people pay him. "But I followed all the rules." That doesn't make it right, does it?

What rules do the CEO's follow? They are paid millions to make the company money...that's the only rules they have that I know of. When they steal from the company by running it into the ground then did they do what they were paid to do? If someone pays you to do a job do they pay you to do it right, or to fck up? What do you get paid for? Good job or bad job? And if you fck up does it affect the entire company like it does in case with many CEO's seeing how they call the shots and make the rules? Unless you own your own business I doubt it.

As far as be being paid unemployment...it's the breaks of the game in union construction. You want those workers during the summer months then make it worth their while. I would rather be payed double while on the job and not collect unemployment during the off season but until something changes it is what it is. I'm in it to make money. You don't pay us, then your pretty much fckd for putting any gas in your car which is no biggy seeing how you wouldn't have any roads to drive your car on nor bridges to drive over.

[slim 1,525]

So what I'm getting is your not a capitalist. Capitalism is all about making money. When you lie to your share holders while running a company into the ground and steal said monies from your share holders (profits and investments), that isn't capitalism, it's theft. Shareholders want to make money, they don't make money when the people running the company run said company into the ground while giving themselves and an elite few raises and bonuses while the ship is sinking. That's not good business, it's theft.

Is it illegal?

Are the unions calling the shots on how the company is ran? Not hardly. Do you know why the CEO's and upper crust get paid so much? Because it's their job to make sure that company makes $$$$$$$$. They do the marketing, the engineering if it's called for, they make the business decisions and that's why they make the big bucks. When a company goes t*ts up because they failed to keep up with the times, or if they did a ####### job on marketing their product...it's on them, not "Joe Worker". Joe Worker doesn't make those decisions, Joe Worker does what he or she is told to do. You want to make the big bucks for making the big decisions then do it right but don't steal the company blind while doing a sh*t job.

Usually the only thing that's "on them" is the millions of dollars they take to the bank.

No idea what that means other than do your job and do it well for the most money you can make.

It means that every single employee/employer is part of a negotiation. Employers pay employees to do work. Employees agree to that pay for that work. Or not. Yet nowadays we have an entire group of people who think they're entitled to more money for less work. Where'd that come from?

I'm guessing you never belonged to a union and if you did it wasn't a skilled trades union. It's all about team work. Nothing to do with CEO's unless said CEO's are killing the company by not doing their job like they are paid to do...and they get paid well...some in the millions.

Then what's the problem?

Post where I said that or save it.

"If a non union member wants to take the companies package then fine. But I know from experience that usually it ends up bad. First there are the warnings then there is the sliced tires, and if that doesn't do the trick ...worse ...way worse."

Most of your right to work states make sub par living wages. If you want to afford to buy a house, car, feed your family, etc... you want a livable wage. Not all of us want to be on our knee's making third world country wages. Do the unions bargain? Ya they do. Can a company kick the unions out...you betcha, it happens more often than naught.

There is nowhere in the US where folks get a sub-par wage. We're all richer than we need to be.

Some of us make very stupid decisions and then expect others to pay for it. Therein lies our problem. It's not about the pay.... it's about the spending. (Jeez. Where have we heard that before?)

What rules do the CEO's follow? They are paid millions to make the company money...that's the only rules they have that I know of. When they steal from the company by running it into the ground then did they do what they were paid to do? If someone pays you to do a job do they pay you to do it right, or to fck up? What do you get paid for? Good job or bad job? And if you fck up does it affect the entire company like it does in case with many CEO's seeing how they call the shots and make the rules? Unless you own your own business I doubt it.

When businesses go t*ts up, there are only a few people who can go to jail. Officers of a company can. Ever heard of the SEC?

I know I'm talking way, way, waaaay above your pay grade here, but if you're going to b!tch about something, you should at least understand it first.

As far as be being paid unemployment...it's the breaks of the game in union construction. You want those workers during the summer months then make it worth their while. I would rather be payed double while on the job and not collect unemployment during the off season but until something changes it is what it is. I'm in it to make money. You don't pay us, then your pretty much fckd for putting any gas in your car which is no biggy seeing how you wouldn't have any roads to drive your car on nor bridges to drive over.

"It's legal for us to take your money...."

You sound like a CEO.