A return to "Operation Wetback"?

[PsychoKat 0]

my opinions is that we do have a problem, just that we do not need bad "solutions". and a lot of solutions being bantered about stem from fear rather than objective look at the situation with an eye for a "win-win" solution.

What kind of "win-win" do you have in mind that doesn't include a reward for those that trample(d) on the law? We've had those "win-win's" before and those got us where we are today.

ORLY?! how many amnesties have been? I only recall the Reagan amnesty.. before that.. well, I wasn't born yet lawl

You were around in Dec 2000, no? Clinton signed that amnesty into law. LIFE Act. Look it up.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a win-win solution to be had. Amnesty has been tried and obviously this was not effective. I honestly believe a guest worker program will not be that effective either, the companies that hire illegal immigrants generally speaking, are motivated by cheap labor with little overhead ie; no insurance, no legal recourse over abuse on the part of those working illegally...basically slave labor in some senses. A guest worker program would eliminate that advantage for those companies, and the cycle will just continue if just left at that. That would be like seeing blood on someone and slapping a bandage over the blood instead of finding the source of the blood and addressing the bleeding wound itself.

The IRCA of 1986 attempted to remedy this aspect of the problem by implimenting laws requiring companies to verify legal eligibility to work and implimenting fines for those companies not adhering to this. Verification methods were for some time in question, then eventually the subject of racism came into play and the law was amended to remove the hiring companies from penalties based on studies that indicated that people who were in fact legal were subject to racial profiling when it came to employment, which was viewed as too costly to civil liberties. For those interested the Congressional report regarding this is available online but it's been sometime since I read it so you'll have to google it yourselves.

Companies can verify legal eligibility to work without racial profiling, so in my opinion this is not a valld defense but simply a ploy to appease those companies intent on circumventing legal requirements to obtain cheap labor. Although there was no reason to question whether I was a legal US citizen when the company I am employed with now hired me, they in fact did do a background check prior to hiring me to confirm I was indeed eligible to be legally employed. I had to provide them with my birth certificate, and social security number, after they had confirmed these were valid and legal they then offered me the job. It can be done and it only took them 2 days to do so.

When the subject of illegal immigration is raised, people are justifiably angered by it, but more often than not that anger is focused on the illegal immigrants almost exclusively where it might be more effective to focus on the companies who hire them. Rather than risk stepping on corporate toes our government is doing a good job of keeping the public anger focused on the illegal immigrants instead of the companies by portraying these companies almost as innocent victims with no choice but to hire illegal workers, but this is a huge mitigating factor in the issue and unless it's addressed everyone might as well throw their hands up in defeat.

So long as those entering the country illegally are able to find a means of survival they will continue to come here if it means the possibility of a better future for them. So long as companies are willing and able to get away with employing them, they will be able to find that means of survival and the process will be sustained. If our government were to strictly enforce laws banning companies from hiring illegal workers, while making the cost to those found doing so, so painfully high that it's no longer worthwhile to even attempt it, this would serve to lower the chance of survival here for anyone coming here illegally and eliminate their hopes of a better future.

Although this might not solve the problem, logically speaking it no doubt would have a major impact on the issue. But so long as our government caters to business, this will not happen.

[Traviesa 0]

ET: If I were smart enough to have the answer I'd probably would be candidate for a Nobel prize for sumthn or another. I'll I can say about the currently proposed solutions seem bandaid-sh to me. And sometimes we have to accept some losses(eg. granting current illegals some kind amnesty) for a bigger win. Dunno what it is going to take.

I don't think that an amnesty needs to be part of the solution for a bigger win. I think another amnesty is going to accomplish only one thing: generate more illegals down the road. The last two have done that and there's nothing that indicates that the next amnesty would do anything different.

What needs to happen is severe punishment for employers that hire folks that are not authorized to work ion the US. No slaps on the wrist. Severe punishment in terms of monetary penalties that would offset 10 times the gains made by employing illegals plus a flony conviction on the executive's record. I'd like to see some jail time, too.

Let's start there and see where that gets us. A new approach is needed. Not more of the same.

I thought they were already doing this. Alvaro Munoz got hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines, plus spent 2 years in jail, then lost his permanent residency, permanently.

[AnaAndDaniel 0]

ET: If I were smart enough to have the answer I'd probably would be candidate for a Nobel prize for sumthn or another. I'll I can say about the currently proposed solutions seem bandaid-sh to me. And sometimes we have to accept some losses(eg. granting current illegals some kind amnesty) for a bigger win. Dunno what it is going to take.

I don't think that an amnesty needs to be part of the solution for a bigger win. I think another amnesty is going to accomplish only one thing: generate more illegals down the road. The last two have done that and there's nothing that indicates that the next amnesty would do anything different.

What needs to happen is severe punishment for employers that hire folks that are not authorized to work ion the US. No slaps on the wrist. Severe punishment in terms of monetary penalties that would offset 10 times the gains made by employing illegals plus a flony conviction on the executive's record. I'd like to see some jail time, too.

Let's start there and see where that gets us. A new approach is needed. Not more of the same.

ET: ok. mow follow it through for us. what happens if what you propose is implemented. lets just keep if focused on cost/prices that companies and consumers will have to adjust to.

Daniel

:energetic:

[homesick_american 1]

err, panama, banana republic? lawl

Sure, there's some produce you can't really grow in the US...pineapples, bananas, etc. However, most of what we eat can be easily grown in season across the US.

[peejay 327]

Unfortunately I don't think there is a win-win solution to be had. Amnesty has been tried and obviously this was not effective. I honestly believe a guest worker program will not be that effective either, the companies that hire illegal immigrants generally speaking, are motivated by cheap labor with little overhead ie; no insurance, no legal recourse over abuse on the part of those working illegally...basically slave labor in some senses. A guest worker program would eliminate that advantage for those companies, and the cycle will just continue if just left at that. That would be like seeing blood on someone and slapping a bandage over the blood instead of finding the source of the blood and addressing the bleeding wound itself.

The IRCA of 1986 attempted to remedy this aspect of the problem by implimenting laws requiring companies to verify legal eligibility to work and implimenting fines for those companies not adhering to this. Verification methods were for some time in question, then eventually the subject of racism came into play and the law was amended to remove the hiring companies from penalties based on studies that indicated that people who were in fact legal were subject to racial profiling when it came to employment, which was viewed as too costly to civil liberties. For those interested the Congressional report regarding this is available online but it's been sometime since I read it so you'll have to google it yourselves.

Companies can verify legal eligibility to work without racial profiling, so in my opinion this is not a valld defense but simply a ploy to appease those companies intent on circumventing legal requirements to obtain cheap labor. Although there was no reason to question whether I was a legal US citizen when the company I am employed with now hired me, they in fact did do a background check prior to hiring me to confirm I was indeed eligible to be legally employed. I had to provide them with my birth certificate, and social security number, after they had confirmed these were valid and legal they then offered me the job. It can be done and it only took them 2 days to do so.

When the subject of illegal immigration is raised, people are justifiably angered by it, but more often than not that anger is focused on the illegal immigrants almost exclusively where it might be more effective to focus on the companies who hire them. Rather than risk stepping on corporate toes our government is doing a good job of keeping the public anger focused on the illegal immigrants instead of the companies by portraying these companies almost as innocent victims with no choice but to hire illegal workers, but this is a huge mitigating factor in the issue and unless it's addressed everyone might as well throw their hands up in defeat.

So long as those entering the country illegally are able to find a means of survival they will continue to come here if it means the possibility of a better future for them. So long as companies are willing and able to get away with employing them, they will be able to find that means of survival and the process will be sustained. If our government were to strictly enforce laws banning companies from hiring illegal workers, while making the cost to those found doing so, so painfully high that it's no longer worthwhile to even attempt it, this would serve to lower the chance of survival here for anyone coming here illegally and eliminate their hopes of a better future.

Although this might not solve the problem, logically speaking it no doubt would have a major impact on the issue. But so long as our government caters to business, this will not happen.

This is a major point I was trying to show in my now dead thread on Eisenhower's solution to illegal immigration and the corruption it degenerates into. Eisenhower also took on the corruption in the military industrial complex while in office too, but that is another story.

It is worthy to note that when Eisenhower cracked down on the widespread use of illegal aliens it didn't collapse the economy. The gloom and doom that is predicted if there is a crackdown on illegals now didn't happen then.

I was called a fear monger earlier in this thread because I stated the situation has degenerated to the point it is now. I have been in the US workforce since the early 1970's in Texas. There were illegals in the workforce then, but it was miniscule to what it has degenerated to now. It was mostly confined to the border states and to cash money off-the-books stoop labor. That will always happen and always exist. It is no longer mostly in the ag fields and has expanded nationwide and to jobs Americans traditionally worked at. How far will we let it go?

I work in the offshore oil industry in the Texas / Louisiana Gulf of Mexico. Five years ago you never saw illegal aliens working out there. Now there are entire construction crews of illegal welders, fitters, and riggers. How do I know they are illegal? The ones that can speak passable English admit it. Most of them don't even speak any English. On some crews only the foreman speaks English to translate. And I'm sure these undocumented workers have enough counterfeit documents to get these corrupt companies off the hook. No wonder the corporations fight hard to keep mandatory employment verification a reality.

As long as the American people tolerate politicians and corporations that tolerate illegal workers we get what we deserve. Corruption breeds corruption. ENRON and Worldcom didn't happen overnight either.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

This is a very touchy emotional topic especially in this type of forum,

I agree that Employers in USA should be held Criminally accountable for hiring Immigrants that are not legally authorized to work. Fines. imprisonment and loss of business revenue do to Tax evation

It is the people who hire these Illegal workers that should be punished.

And if anyone is found to have Entered the USA illegally they should be sent back to where they entred illegally from and made to go through the immigration process LEGALLY, thats not racism, it is not violating human or civl rights it is enforcing federal laws that every country seems to be able to enforce without scrutiny but USA gets ridiculed for enforcing its own federal immigration laws set in place to protect freedoms & rights that bring legal immigrants to our soil.

Any program that allows US citizen Children born to Illegal immigrants should NOT be allowed to petition their parents for citizenship or sponsor them (Anchor babies)

All these criminal acts undermine the process & priviliages that all of those in this forum work so hard to achieve.

The Economy suffers, Legal immigrants and Citizens suffer from illegal immigrants stealing money, jobs, free education, Free medical care and Work without paying Income taxes.

It has to stop, a federal mandated Employement verification system is a great start. Yes it will cost tax payers money up front but down the line it will save Billions!

A border fence is not a bad idea either, that still does not solve the problem of those billions of ILLEGAL Un inspected immigrants still remaining in the USA, stealing Govt. benefits. or legal residents jobs, revenue

Anyone who enteres the USA illegally should NOTbe Given 1 red penny, no public assistance of any kind except a plane ticket or bus ride better yet a boat ride back to where they came from. No free Non emergency health care, No driving privilaiges, NO employement rights UNTIL they become LEGAL. there is a system and process we all have to follow once someone enetrs the country Illeaglly, they are intentionally avoiding inspection their First Act on USA soil is that of criminal Defiance of federal immigration laws. It should be punished NOT rewarded!

I am sick of people screaming about violation of Human rights when they break federal laws and expect to be given a free ride and not have to face fair consequences. It si asad when USA border patrol i snt allowed to do their job whne they try to stop illegal drug smuggler without being sued.

Illegal Immigrants are criminals and should be treated as such! FRAUD, TAX EVATION, CRIMINAL Trespassing, Federal ID fraud, the list is LONG and damages effect everyone!

Companies should be held accountable but Alos those WHO KNOWINGLY COMMIT FEDERAL CRIME BY ENTERING ILLEGALLY SHOULD ALSO BE PUNISHED!

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Bring it back

http://tinyurl.com/gad8x

Still driving the bus

By Mike Gallagher

Friday, September 29, 2006

Do you remember the illegal immigrant from Mexico who was driving a bus that burst into flames and killed 23 nursing home patients who were evacuating Hurricane Rita last year in Houston?

His name is Juan Robles Gutierrez and he is a Mexican national, one of the millions who have sneaked across our border and taken a job so that he can send his income back to Monterey, where his wife and daughter live. In his case, he waded across the Rio Grande and began working for Global Limo, the company that owned the bus that burst into flames on September 23, 2005, burning 23 passengers alive.

Robles was arrested after the Dallas County Sheriff said that the evidence collected indicated that the bus driver’s actions contributed to the 23 deaths.

Fast forward to today. I’d like to give you a pop quiz about Mr. Robles. If you answer correctly, you will get an A.

Since Robles was arrested, where is he today? Is he:

A. Sitting in jail;

B. Deported to Mexico;

C. Living freely as a resident of the United States and still driving a bus.

After 23 horrific deaths, there surely couldn’t be any way that “C” would be the correct answer, right? Well, welcome to 2006 America, where in the world of illegal immigration, right means wrong, up means down, and illegal means hero.

It turns out that the evidence collected by the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department must not have been enough to hold Juan Robles Gutierrez responsible for the nursing home patients deaths. In fact, it is believed that a mechanical failure of the brakes led to the fire which ignited the bus.

But that wouldn’t exonerate Robles from his illegal actions that brought him to the United States and placed him behind the wheel of that bus, would it?

You bet your sweet green card it would. And did.

After he was cleared of the charges, he was ordered to stay in the Houston area in order to testify in the trial of the bus company owner. He didn’t really like that too much. He preferred to live in Laredo, Texas, where he could be closer to his wife and daughter who live in Monterey, Mexico. So he went to an immigration official and was allowed to move to Laredo.

Then, our brilliant “system” granted him a work visa. After all, his wife and daughter have bills to pay in Monterey!

After Robles got his wish to live in the American city he wanted, he began itching to drive a bus again. No problemo, amigo. A Texas-based bus company hired him and he now cheerfully makes the 8 hour drive between Laredo and Dallas on a daily basis behind the wheel of yet another bus.

Perhaps his passengers these days should be advised to carry a fire extinguisher with them.

What’s perhaps the most shocking aspect of this story is how little the news media has paid attention to it. This guy goes from being the illegal immigrant from Mexico who was arrested for the deaths of 23 elderly patients on his bus to just another working-class stiff, holding down a steady paying job, a job that many Americans would undoubtedly love to have.

There are so many outrages in this story, I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe we can start with his “request” to move to Laredo to be closer to his family in Mexico. If I were the immigration judge, I’d have the perfect solution. You want to be close to your family, Mr. Robles? Heck, how about your home in Monterey, Mexico? Close enough?

But while the American news media might not be paying attention to this story, I’ll bet the illegals are observing. After all, if a Mexican illegal can still keep residency in America and even have the same job he was doing when his bus burned up 23 people, how serious could the United States really be about stopping illegal immigration?

I hope you passed the quiz and received an “A.” When it comes to combating illegal immigration, the United States continues to get a well-deserved “F.”

There is another story that happened recently

2 US Border Patrol Agents facing 20 years in Prison for doing their Job of protecting our border from an Illegal Drug smuggler who is set Free to testify against them

Edited October 2, 2006 by Addie_Goodvibes

[Marc and Olga 0]

Bring it back

http://tinyurl.com/gad8x

Still driving the bus

By Mike Gallagher

Friday, September 29, 2006

Do you remember the illegal immigrant from Mexico who was driving a bus that burst into flames and killed 23 nursing home patients who were evacuating Hurricane Rita last year in Houston?

His name is Juan Robles Gutierrez and he is a Mexican national, one of the millions who have sneaked across our border and taken a job so that he can send his income back to Monterey, where his wife and daughter live. In his case, he waded across the Rio Grande and began working for Global Limo, the company that owned the bus that burst into flames on September 23, 2005, burning 23 passengers alive.

Robles was arrested after the Dallas County Sheriff said that the evidence collected indicated that the bus driver’s actions contributed to the 23 deaths.

Fast forward to today. I’d like to give you a pop quiz about Mr. Robles. If you answer correctly, you will get an A.

Since Robles was arrested, where is he today? Is he:

A. Sitting in jail;

B. Deported to Mexico;

C. Living freely as a resident of the United States and still driving a bus.

After 23 horrific deaths, there surely couldn’t be any way that “C” would be the correct answer, right? Well, welcome to 2006 America, where in the world of illegal immigration, right means wrong, up means down, and illegal means hero.

It turns out that the evidence collected by the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department must not have been enough to hold Juan Robles Gutierrez responsible for the nursing home patients deaths. In fact, it is believed that a mechanical failure of the brakes led to the fire which ignited the bus.

But that wouldn’t exonerate Robles from his illegal actions that brought him to the United States and placed him behind the wheel of that bus, would it?

You bet your sweet green card it would. And did.

After he was cleared of the charges, he was ordered to stay in the Houston area in order to testify in the trial of the bus company owner. He didn’t really like that too much. He preferred to live in Laredo, Texas, where he could be closer to his wife and daughter who live in Monterey, Mexico. So he went to an immigration official and was allowed to move to Laredo.

Then, our brilliant “system” granted him a work visa. After all, his wife and daughter have bills to pay in Monterey!

After Robles got his wish to live in the American city he wanted, he began itching to drive a bus again. No problemo, amigo. A Texas-based bus company hired him and he now cheerfully makes the 8 hour drive between Laredo and Dallas on a daily basis behind the wheel of yet another bus.

Perhaps his passengers these days should be advised to carry a fire extinguisher with them.

What’s perhaps the most shocking aspect of this story is how little the news media has paid attention to it. This guy goes from being the illegal immigrant from Mexico who was arrested for the deaths of 23 elderly patients on his bus to just another working-class stiff, holding down a steady paying job, a job that many Americans would undoubtedly love to have.

There are so many outrages in this story, I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe we can start with his “request” to move to Laredo to be closer to his family in Mexico. If I were the immigration judge, I’d have the perfect solution. You want to be close to your family, Mr. Robles? Heck, how about your home in Monterey, Mexico? Close enough?

But while the American news media might not be paying attention to this story, I’ll bet the illegals are observing. After all, if a Mexican illegal can still keep residency in America and even have the same job he was doing when his bus burned up 23 people, how serious could the United States really be about stopping illegal immigration?

I hope you passed the quiz and received an “A.” When it comes to combating illegal immigration, the United States continues to get a well-deserved “F.”

There is another story that happened recently

2 US Border Patrol Agents facing 20 years in Prison for doing their Job of protecting our border from an Illegal Drug smuggler who is set Free to testify against them

I read the story about those 2 and was stunned, also all you "they do jobs we americans don't want to." Here's a good one for you, a FREEKIN DRUG SMUGGLER is FREE and set to testify against 2 of our border patrol agents who were doing their job!