Visa waiver program only applicable under certain conditions?

[tigey 10]

You will need the B-2 visa. It is necessary. I can't tell you if you were treating unfairly or not since I wasn't there.

The CBP has the authority to deny you entry on the VWP. They can impose the condition that as a Belize national, you must have a B-2 visa to visit. Their authority is final and not subject to review.

There is no help that you can get from this forum that would alter your situation. Even a lawsuit from you would be dismissed since the court cannot review the CBP's decision.

Is this a new policy to the VWP? When it first started I applied for my ESTA and no where under the conditions did it state that dual citizens of countries that do not qualify for the VWP must default to using their other non-VWP approved passport and get a Visa. My ESTA was issued and since my H1-B expired and I have had my ESTA I have entered the USA over 10 times on VWP with no problem, even though the officers clearly see my other passport, they have always taken my UK one.

I understand that WVP is not guaranteed entry, I understand that CBP is the final authority, I am just curious as to why the policy was changed?

[aaron2020 11,651]

I am not aware of any policy changes. As you noted, nothing said foreign dual citizens can't use the VWP. However, nothing says that foreign dual citizens can pick which passport to present either. Congreve gave the CBP the authority to decide. The CBP used its discretion.

[Dan & Jenni 457]

I am not aware of any policy changes. As you noted, nothing said foreign dual citizens can't use the VWP. However, nothing says that foreign dual citizens can pick which passport to present either. Congreve gave the CBP the authority to decide. The CBP used its discretion.

:thumbs: i totally agree... i dont think it is a policy change but a CBP officer that has decided that you are possibly abusing the fact that you have dual passports. plus you have used the VWP quite a lot too.

on the up-side... at least they didnt deny you entry

[tigey 10]

:thumbs: i totally agree... i dont think it is a policy change but a CBP officer that has decided that you are possibly abusing the fact that you have dual passports. plus you have used the VWP quite a lot too.

on the up-side... at least they didnt deny you entry

I understand, however I dont see how I can abuse the fact that I have dual passports. Is there is a limit to the amount of entries you can make to the USA? I'm not doing anything illegal or immoral. I'm going to see my fiance, and spending a lot of money in Florida as a tourist also. If I had a B-2 an entered every month, would I be "abusing" the fact that I have a visitors visa? How about European businessmen that travel internationally frequently? Do they also "abuse" the VWP? I explained to both the officers that I was only there for a few days, my occupation, and that I had more than enough money to support myself for the time I was there. I could understand if I were jobless and had no ties to Belize, but that was not the case at all.

[tigey 10]

I am not aware of any policy changes. As you noted, nothing said foreign dual citizens can't use the VWP. However, nothing says that foreign dual citizens can pick which passport to present either. Congreve gave the CBP the authority to decide. The CBP used its discretion.

I disagree. CBP does not have the authority to decide what passport I choose to use. I am a legal citizen of both countries, and that is my choice. If they decide to deny me entry simply because I am a dual citizen that is in their power and I can not dispute that. The officer SPECIFICALLY informed me that I was not allowed to use the VWP, because I was a permanent resident of Belize and wrote that on my customs form. If I had been living in the UK permanently, I would be eligible to enter the VWP because i would be residing in UK, a WVP approved country.

[Stu4Lee 66]

Did they take you to secondary and question you about the frequency that you use VWP and that you couldnt use VWP again or for a specified period of time?

Typical CBP a-hole, for them to let you in as "courtesy of the officers" as you put, is bullshit.

You are either legal to enter using VWP or you are not.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Stu4Lee

[aaron2020 11,651]

I understand, however I dont see how I can abuse the fact that I have dual passports. Is there is a limit to the amount of entries you can make to the USA? I'm not doing anything illegal or immoral. I'm going to see my fiance, and spending a lot of money in Florida as a tourist also. If I had a B-2 an entered every month, would I be "abusing" the fact that I have a visitors visa? How about European businessmen that travel internationally frequently? Do they also "abuse" the VWP? I explained to both the officers that I was only there for a few days, my occupation, and that I had more than enough money to support myself for the time I was there. I could understand if I were jobless and had no ties to Belize, but that was not the case at all.

CBP has absolute discretion that is not reviewable. You don't have to have done anything wrong.

This is like a parent having absolute discretion with their kids. Whatever mom or dad decide is it. If they have the discretion, they can decide. It doesn't matter that Dad and Mom let sis go to the movie and not you. They don't have to explain it to you. They don't have to be fair. It's within their unreviewable discretion. No court or anyone can tell Dad and Mom that they decided wrong or were being unfair.

So, it doesn't matter that you haven't done anything wrong. It doesn't matter about other businessmen. CBP has absolute discretion.

[tigey 10]

CBP has absolute discretion that is not reviewable. You don't have to have done anything wrong.

This is like a parent having absolute discretion with their kids. Whatever mom or dad decide is it. If they have the discretion, they can decide. It doesn't matter that Dad and Mom let sis go to the movie and not you. They don't have to explain it to you. They don't have to be fair. It's within their unreviewable discretion. No court or anyone can tell Dad and Mom that they decided wrong or were being unfair.

So, it doesn't matter that you haven't done anything wrong. It doesn't matter about other businessmen. CBP has absolute discretion.

yea I know this its been said over and over.

[Stu4Lee 66]

Here is a big clue....

Do I need to apply for ESTA if...?

I have dual citizenship from both a VWP country and a non-VWP country? If you are flying under the terms of the VWP, (including never having been denied a U.S. visa in your non-VWP country of citizenship) and are using your VWP passport, you must apply for ESTA. If you are using your non-VWP country's passport, you will require a visa and therefore ESTA does not apply to you.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1094/~/do-i-need-to-apply-for-esta

Edited January 18, 2012 by Stu4Lee

[Darnell 8,479]

If you are still in the USA -

PLEASE get to a CBP Secondary Inspection / Deferred Inspection Office, nowish,

ask for the shift supervisor,

and ask for clarificatio/explanation.

IMO, only the CBP folk can explain what's useful for you.

Good Luck ! Let us know how it went?

[tigey 10]

Did they take you to secondary and question you about the frequency that you use VWP and that you couldnt use VWP again or for a specified period of time?

Typical CBP a-hole, for them to let you in as "courtesy of the officers" as you put, is bullshit.

You are either legal to enter using VWP or you are not.

they did not take me to secondary, I explained to them that I traveled often to see my fiance. They asked me if she paid for my ticket. I said no of course not. They asked how I paid for it. At this point I was very angry, however tried to keep my head on. I explained that I was the owner of a large company in my country, and A few thousand US$ for a ticket was not much to me. They glared at me lol. Anyway, he eventually told me that he would let me through on the WVP this time, as a courtesy, but if I wanted to enter after that I would need a B-2 in my other passport, because that was the country I lived in, I do not live in the UK.

Here is a big clue....

Do I need to apply for ESTA if...?

I have dual citizenship from both a VWP country and a non-VWP country? If you are flying under the terms of the VWP, (including never having been denied a U.S. visa in your non-VWP country of citizenship) and are using your VWP passport, you must apply for ESTA. If you are using your non-VWP country's passport, you will require a visa and therefore ESTA does not apply to you.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1094/~/do-i-need-to-apply-for-esta

so its my choice. It has nothing to do with where my permanent address is.

If you are still in the USA -

PLEASE get to a CBP Secondary Inspection / Deferred Inspection Office, nowish,

ask for the shift supervisor,

and ask for clarificatio/explanation.

IMO, only the CBP folk can explain what's useful for you.

Good Luck ! Let us know how it went?

I'm back in Belize. But I will go back to Florida in Feb lol.

[Stu4Lee 66]

Here is another big clue....from their own website

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1096/related/1/session/L2F2LzEvc2lkL2l4NDJucE9r/~/do-i-need-to-apply-for-esta

ESTA-eligible passport, country of issuance, citizenship

My Country of Issue is not in the ESTA drop down menu, other passport eligibility issues.

If you don't find your country of issue in the drop down menu, make sure you are selecting the correct country. Your "Country of Issue" is the same as your "Country of Citizenship". For instance, if you are a citizen of the United Kingdom, but are getting your passport from the UK Consulate in Hong Kong, the UK is your country of issue. The UK Consulate may be located in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong is not the country issuing you the passport.

Otherwise, if you can't find the name of your country of issuance or the country of citizenship, then you probably should not be applying for ESTA. Only citizens of countries participating in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) should apply for ESTA.

If you have dual citizenship and have registered with ESTA, you should use your VWP-eligible passport to board the plane when you leave your country of departure and when you arrive in the U.S. If both your countries of citizenship are VWP-eligible, then we strongly recommend you choose which one you want to claim for purposes of travel to the U.S., and use that country's passport each time you travel. One person with two different ESTA authorizations creates confusion that will only delay your travel.

If you are a citizen of the U.S., and also of a VWP country, you should not be applying for ESTA. One of the requirements of being a naturalized U.S. citizen is that you apply for, and use, a U.S. passport for your travels. While we are aware that in some cases, naturalized U.S. citizens use their alternate country's passport to travel, our expectation is that you will use the U.S. passport to travel from another country to the U.S. at both points of travel, departing the foreign country, and arriving into the U.S.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Stu4Lee

[aaron2020 11,651]

they did not take me to secondary, I explained to them that I traveled often to see my fiance. They asked me if she paid for my ticket. I said no of course not. They asked how I paid for it. At this point I was very angry, however tried to keep my head on. I explained that I was the owner of a large company in my country, and A few thousand US$ for a ticket was not much to me. They glared at me lol. Anyway, he eventually told me that he would let me through on the WVP this time, as a courtesy, but if I wanted to enter after that I would need a B-2 in my other passport, because that was the country I lived in, I do not live in the UK.

so its my choice. It has nothing to do with where my permanent address is.

I'm back in Belize. But I will go back to Florida in Feb lol.

Okay, we got it. It's your choice which passport you want to present. CBP has the choice to deny entry on the VWP and require you to get a B-2 for your Belize passport.

You are not a US citizen. You are not an LPR. You don't get to decide about entry.

You are simply not getting it. A foreign person has no power or authority whatsoever at the POE on which documents are sufficient to gain entry into the US. It is CBP's absolute discretion.

You don't have a choice. CBP tells you what is sufficient for you, a foreigner, to come into the US.

-----------------

What are you going to do in February on your next trip to the US? If you are deny entry, you will need to disclose this for your K-1.

I suggest you get over this and comply with what the CBP has told you.

You have no recourse. You can file a lawsuit over this if you like. It will be dismissed because CBP has the authority to decide which documents you need to present to them in order for them to admit you into the US.

Edited January 18, 2012 by aaron2020

[Moomin 292]

As a person you're not qualified to use VWP. You're privileged that your country is a VWP country. As a citizen, you apply for ESTA. That's the first half of being "pre-approved" waiving the requirement of having a visa. What nationality did you put in any of the documents(ESTA/travel agency etc)? They're(CBP officers) forced to take action when or if they see anything suspicious. Unless you're entering UK with your UK passport and not the other one(as an example), then it's not an on-the-go choice.

One thing is being a dual citizen, another is traveling as one. I agree with aaron2020.

[tigey 10]

Okay, we got it. It's your choice which passport you want to present. CBP has the choice to deny entry on the VWP and require you to get a B-2 for your Belize passport.

You are not a US citizen. You are not an LPR. You don't get to decide about entry.

You are simply not getting it. A foreign person has no power or authority whatsoever at the POE on which documents are sufficient to gain entry into the US. It is CBP's absolute discretion.

You don't have a choice. CBP tells you what is sufficient for you, a foreigner, to come into the US.

-----------------

What are you going to do in February on your next trip to the US? If you are deny entry, you will need to disclose this for your K-1.

I suggest you get over this and comply with what the CBP has told you.

You have no recourse. You can file a lawsuit over this if you like. It will be dismissed because CBP has the authority to decide which documents you need to present to them in order for them to admit you into the US.

I get it. Its a privilege to be allowed to enter the USA, and it is up to CBP. I have no say in that and their authority is supreme. I know. I am making a fuss because I believe I was treated unfairly and singled out for certain reasons. I was in line with many other WVP people who were never questioned. As St4lee posted, their own site says "If you have dual citizenship and have registered with ESTA, you should use your VWP-eligible passport to board the plane when you leave your country of departure and when you arrive in the U.S." This is what I always do. The officer was a ####### and I believe I was discriminated against unfairly I believed he didnt think I knew any better and lied saying that you must use the passport of the country where you are a permanent resident, just to give me a hard time because he was a ####### . However yes, I know they have full discretion and their word is law.