negotiating about family visits

[catknit 144]

He's being one heck of a manipulative piece of work!

My suggestion, and seriously keep in mind I am just a stranger on the internet....

You love him, he loves you, he loves his momma [classic indian guy trait - I know of non-indian wives who play the "me or your mom" game which involves scenarios of who he would rescue from a fire first, if the car flew off a bridge whose seatbelt would he go for first, etc etc - boggles my mind and reminds me why therapists make so much money]. This is a manageable issue - you may not be in love with handling it, but it's manageable.

#1 - he's paying for a bigger place. No ifs, ands, or buts. Plus, until you're done with residency/fellowships/etc, he's following your career around the country and renting/leasing where you chose.

#2 - Does he get what the USMLE is like? Or being a doc in the US? Your career comes first [even if to you it doesn't] because he's relocating here.

#3 - You're going to be working 70-80+ hour weeks for quite a few years. Worrying about potential family time may not be a huge issue. Worrying about sleep and studying may be a huge issue. Bizarre consolation prize - you may keep the same jetlag hours as his parents depending on your work schedule.

Where this whole plan falls apart is if he's a doc too - but then he'll feel the wrath of both the USMLEs as well as residency etc.

#4 - When you finally settle down from your education - you get to pick the house plans that include an all inclusive inlaw suite. Or, you get a duplex, or you get 2 co-ops in the same building next to each other on his dime - depending on your lifestyle choice. The day will come when they can't travel any longer or they will no longer be of this world - if you have the inlaw suite, it can be converted into a nanny suite. A duplex can be rented. The second co-op, rented or reno'd into a single larger co-op. It would be modified joint living to some indian families. To others, having multiple flats in the same building IS joint living. This would be your concession point.

[rlogan 2,036]

You know, and everyone else knows, this is a manipulator.

The most important thing to zero in on was when he agreed to three weeks. It is going to be hard for you to accept this, but the literature is emphatic: their entire plan is already in place at the time they lie about the agreement. This is not a six year old. This is an adult male who has a lifetime of practice at this.

He knew two things when he agreed: 1) lying would improve his chances of marriage to you. 2) He would pull all of the manipulative ####### he subsequently pulled to reneg on the agreement.

You have excused this on the basis that he loves his parents. But the most important thing is the cruelty and complete lack of respect for YOU when he laid these plans. He knew exactly what kinds of emotional torment he was going to inflict upon you to get his way later, and that doesn't matter one bit to him.

You also keyed in on another very important matter. You indicated he rushed into marriage so he didn't really think about the agreement much. Hahahahahahah! Talk about having it backwards! Look for the number one sign of the manipulative personality in relationships: rushing into marriage. You've posed this as an excuse when it is the number one strategy of manipulative people: to say whatever they think will get you married to them in a hurry. Look how lame his explanation is in comparison to what the literature tells us. He pretends not to have paid attention. On the contrary - he was being extremely careful to say what you wanted to hear.

Look at all the other promises too! Guess what? They're just as good as this one. He actually used future promises he has yet to fulfill as leverage to remove another empty promise. He gave nothing up whatsoever: All take, no give.

Wow, he used a long list of abusive manipulative tactics on you, and then when you questioned the relationship - his gravy train - he backed off. Get used to him riding the very edge of this. In economics they call this rent-maximization: get every last golden egg from the goose without losing the goose. Understand that a manipulator knows intellectually he has to show empathy to deceive you, so he can put on a show of how much he loves you, and even shed tears on cue. Then they can turn on a dime - next thing you know they're a different person, committing emotional blackmail, guilt-tripping, shaming, playing dumb, selective memory, etc. Then when you are so fed up you are about to leave them: a line of flattery a mile long. Nobody loves you more than I do, look how I am giving up my whole life for you, nobody so beautiful on the inside and outside, I'll kill myself if you leave me, blah blah blah.

Read Dr. George Simon's Book In Sheep's Clothing. It will explain everything for you, and there's something I think you already suspect: The problem is not him. The problem is you. You are naiive, gullible, and trusting - but most of all you have empathy for others. These vulnerabilities are what leave you an easy victim for manipulative people. These manipulative hunter-killer units are always on the lookout for people like you and me. They can spot us coming from a distance by our smile and warm, caring nature. They know how hard we work and how we will always give the benefit of the doubt no matter how stupid a story we are told. We would never lie like they do, so we make the mistake of projecting our own empathy for others onto them. We are easily duped by false shows of friendship or love. Dr. Simon will tell you that he has seen innumerable professional people, PhD's and doctors and very successful businessmen who were ground into dust by manipulative people. They all make the same mistake of knocking themselves out trying to get the manipulator to "see" that what they are doing is wrong - to change them. Even after the manipulator divorces them they go on trying to figure it out.

You might as well anguish over why there are serial killers or psychopathic sadistic rapists. They have zero empathy. People are objects to attain ends. They exist, they are different from us, and there is nothing we can do about them.

You feel wiped out, emotionally drained and weak, right? You also don't know whether tomorrow is going to bring the loving, caring person or the beast. That is what manipulators do to you: keep you in a weakened state so that you are easier to manipulate. You wondered how you agreed to buy the ticket so easily. Sheesh! He had you on the ropes, reeling and dizzy, and then laid down the phony act about how much he loved you. Because you were starving for it. A pushover. Dr. Simon actually instructs us that when we wonder why we decided to do something like that it is key evidence we have been manipulated.

He's done this before to others, and he is doing it now to you. He knows exactly what he is doing. That's how cruel these people are. A manipulator knows exactly how you think and what works on you. He also knows his own secret playbook. That's why you will always lose: He knows both playbooks, and you have no idea about his. When he met you he immediately put you through what they call the "evaluation phase" where the manipulator tries all kinds of tactics to see what works on you and what doesn't. You have no idea how easy you are to read. Once he has the list of things that work, he just keeps going back to those tactics again and again. He is not going to be the same person to someone else. They are chameleons. If you show a preference for people who like kids - he loves kids. If you show a preference for barn animal pornogrophy, he happens to have a collection of that. If you are neurotic about your weight, he'll use that. Proud of your academic accomplishments? He uses that. Both ways: false flattery (you are so slim, you are so smart) and emotional attacks (your pants look tight, I thought you were smart enough to know this...)

You cannot imagine how great a weight is going to be lifted from you when you leave this guy. What you need most right now is to do some reading, and Dr. Simon's book is the best. It is a quick read. You'll be blown away how he describes everything this guy has done to you. I thought I could learn to deal with these kinds of people and work with them. Change them. What I discovered is how much better it is to cut them out of your life. You have a bright future ahead as an MD, and you're going to find a partner who makes your life wonderful, just like I have with my wife now. I was making about a quarter million a year between both of us and I was miserable. Now I am making a fraction of that and am happier than I have ever been in my life because I learned how manipulative people had always been seeking me out and taking advantage of me. I took charge of my life and got rid of them. I picked a person to marry that was not manipulating me into it.

Good luck!

[rkk1 34]

Ippsy - I agree about health insurance. Health care is really expensive here compared to India, and I don't think he realizes this. I don't even think he has taken that cost into consideration.

Lifesjourney - You are right that we still have 2 years to deal with this. I think we were just getting it out now, as it's important to know for both of us if this issue is a dealbreaker or not.

Catknit - Great post, thanks for the suggestions! He is trained as a lawyer, not a doc. Unfortunately he'll probably end up having to repeat his law education after he comes here, as US law and Indian law are different. But he also has done accounting degrees prior to law school, so he can at least get a job shortly after arriving here, as he would merely need to sit for the CPA exam (as all his coursework there should transfer). I would also be very insistent of us getting a bigger place.

Rlogan - You've written an excellent post, and I am listening.... carefully. My counselor/therapist is still encouraging me not to give up on my marriage so fast, so I'm still trying to make things work. But I agree that I have already seen him do a number of the things you listed in your post. He can be emotionally manipulative for sure. I don't know if that automatically makes him an evil person, as I've seen him be empathetic and kind to others without anything in return. He is extremely nurturing to his mother, and he was quite helpful to me on a prior visit when I got sick. So he does have a gentle side. I wouldn't generally label him as a very manipulative person, but he does have mild tendencies in that direction. At the very least I know that he knows how to play the sympathy card and get others to do what he wants. I do need to call him out on this. I'll hold back for the next few days as he's sick, but shortly thereafter I need to put this on the table, and let him know that I'm not okay with his childish attempts to get me to do what he wants by a few well timed 'I love you's. I admit that I do feel love-starved at present (especially due to the family crisis that is going on, and his subsequent lack of attention the last several weeks), and he is able to use that to his advantage. Although I'm not ready to bail on the marriage quite yet, your words have not been wasted on me... and I will watch him carefully in regards to his manipulation tactics. I am hoping that calling him out on his behaviors is enough to change things in the right direction, but if not, then likely the marriage won't work. Sometimes we all can be guilty of trying to gain sympathy from others and getting them to do what we'd like, but I can't live with someone who continues to play my feelings on a repeated basis.

Edited February 9, 2012 by rkk1

[chinese_mutt 11]

Ippsy - I agree about health insurance. Health care is really expensive here compared to India, and I don't think he realizes this. I don't even think he has taken that cost into consideration.

Lifesjourney - You are right that we still have 2 years to deal with this. I think we were just getting it out now, as it's important to know for both of us if this issue is a dealbreaker or not.

Catknit - Great post, thanks for the suggestions! He is trained as a lawyer, not a doc. Unfortunately he'll probably end up having to repeat his law education after he comes here, as US law and Indian law are different. But he also has done accounting degrees prior to law school, so he can at least get a job shortly after arriving here, as he would merely need to sit for the CPA exam (as all his coursework there should transfer). I would also be very insistent of us getting a bigger place.

Rlogan - You've written an excellent post, and I am listening.... carefully. My counselor/therapist is still encouraging me not to give up on my marriage so fast, so I'm still trying to make things work. But I agree that I have already seen him do a number of the things you listed in your post. He can be emotionally manipulative for sure. I don't know if that automatically makes him an evil person, as I've seen him be empathetic and kind to others without anything in return. He is extremely nurturing to his mother, and he was quite helpful to me on a prior visit when I got sick. So he does have a gentle side. I wouldn't generally label him as a very manipulative person, but he does have mild tendencies in that direction. At the very least I know that he knows how to play the sympathy card and get others to do what he wants. I do need to call him out on this. I'll hold back for the next few days as he's sick, but shortly thereafter I need to put this on the table, and let him know that I'm not okay with his childish attempts to get me to do what he wants by a few well timed 'I love you's. I admit that I do feel love-starved at present (especially due to the family crisis that is going on, and his subsequent lack of attention the last several weeks), and he is able to use that to his advantage. Although I'm not ready to bail on the marriage quite yet, your words have not been wasted on me... and I will watch him carefully in regards to his manipulation tactics. I am hoping that calling him out on his behaviors is enough to change things in the right direction, but if not, then likely the marriage won't work. Sometimes we all can be guilty of trying to gain sympathy from others and getting them to do what we'd like, but I can't live with someone who continues to play my feelings on a repeated basis.

I've read the whole freaking thread about his parents wanting to stay for 6 months. I'm not here to judge or anything but I think couples especially married couples should be able to negotiate and renegotiate deals and agreements made long before they got married. Things change, time passes, and a heck of a lot of circumstances comes and goes in every minute that you are married. Take for instance, my husband promised to take me home every year for a visit. I've been here 2 1/2 years and haven't been able to go visit my folks at all. Do I whine and cry that this wasn't our agreement? Do I say "oh you didn't fulfill your promise to me so let's get a divorce or separate"? NO! Life happens. Illness happens, debt happens, children happens, tragedy happens everyday when you least expect it. Is he emotionally blackmailing you? Maybe. Are you emotionally blackmailing him by saying you will cancel your flight blah blah blah? Maybe. It takes a whole lot of patience and understanding to arrive to a compromise. You can't hold somebody over what they agreed on months or years ago. If you love your husband, work with him. His mother is sick/sickly. What if it was your mother? What if you are in India and your parents can't afford to rent an apartment and visit you for longer periods of time? what if your husband say "no, your sick mother cannot stay for more than 3 weeks"? Will you be devastated? I bet you will. Money is a motivating factor, ask him to get a decent job when he gets here. Get a slightly bigger apartment so his parents can come visit. Don't throw your marriage away because of some "what if" event that might or might not happen. Deal with life as it comes along. You never know, you could hit the lottery a month from now and can afford to buy three mansions to house all his relatives. Be flexible. Marriage is not about who is right or wrong or who made what promise. Marriage is abiding in love, in respect, making compromises along the way, caring for each other, being considerate. You don't even know if his mother is really a monster or if she is a god send to you. You won't even know until the time comes when she gets a visa and comes to visit you. I dreaded staying with my mother-in-law when I was pregnant... but I would give anything to have her back (died two years ago). She was the absolute bestest mother-in-law and I wouldn't have made it thru my 9 months of pregnancy without her company.

be open. be honest about your fears with your husband. He won't understand you if all you say is "no, that's not we agreed on". let him know why you don't want your MIL staying with you. it is so easy to fight about this or that but never really revealing what the issues are. don't let the small things boggle you down. don't listen to people saying he is manipulating you, or this or that. people who are really married knows that promises can be compromised. love is not just romance, it is not just saying 'i love you' everyday, you show it thru your actions, you abide by the person thru good or bad. what happend to in good times and in bad times if you can't even compromise on issues like MIL staying for 6 months at a time? There are more issues out there that thank God you are not dealing with.

just my two cents. take it easy... one day at a time. good luck. i hope that your MIL turns out to be a gem rather than a heavy stone around your neck.

[chinese_mutt 11]

as for your marriage not working, good Lord!!! Marriage is not like some trial and error, you have to work things out and iron out the kinks. You'd be married a 100x and still not find the right husband if this is how you view things. We are all guilty of manipulating other people. In America, it is easy to say let's divorce.. i'll find someone better. It is too easy to walk away from a marriage and say oh I wanted more 'love'. That is the most selfish thing that I have ever heard. He is not hitting you, he is not being verbally abusive to you, and frankly I see it as a mild case of manipulation (admit it you are guilty of this too), he is not on drugs (i hope), he is not a drunkard (i hope), or a gambler (i hope), all he wants is his mother for 6 months MAYBE if she gets a visa and if you guys can afford to send her ticket. There are worse things in life than that. He is not even here yet, wait til he gets here and show him how hard it is to earn $$$$. If he's got a decent job in India and is educated, he will quickly know where you stand financially. SHow him your bills here, show him what kind of life really awaits for him, a splash of reality will cure his 'dreams'. If he ever gets here and he can't drive for a few weeks, he'll know that his mother will go mad staying in a one bedroom apartment while you guys are at work. And then on weekends, you have to save money coz gas is expensive so you really don't want to go anywhere either. And if you are married, why does he have to refund 20% your tickets? Isn't his money yours and your money his? Like I said you have bigger fish to fry when he gets here.

[Boiler 45,486]

So what is the excel file?

[chinese_mutt 11]

So what is the excel file?

deleted. was a file for 2009 feb filers. most of them are mia now.

[rlogan 2,036]

Take for instance, my husband promised to take me home every year for a visit. I've been here 2 1/2 years and haven't been able to go visit my folks at all. Do I whine and cry that this wasn't our agreement? Do I say "oh you didn't fulfill your promise to me so let's get a divorce or separate"? NO! Life happens. Illness happens, debt happens, children happens, tragedy happens everyday when you least expect it.

That's why you don't make rash promises.

[Sandra G. 5,047]

Let me tell you something I know a lot of foreign people that bring their families to the USA every year for six months!I have a Chinese friend and she brings her parents every year for 6 months, this is going on almost 4 years, and she told me her USC husband started complaining about that.I have 2 friends from my home Country (Brazil) that every year bring their parents for 6 months, and I have 4 Indian colleagues that bring their parents in the USA for six month every year as well, and guess what? one of them last year brought her sister for 6months as well, than my dear take serious what your husband is telling you, because it will happen!!!!! have a serious conversation with him about that otherwise you will be overwhelming after a while with their visits.I wouldn't accept a visit for more than 40/60 days per year at all.

[Sandra G. 5,047]

I truly believe after he becomes a US citizen he will apply for his parents to live permanently in the USA, it means with you guys!.

[rkk1 34]

I truly believe after he becomes a US citizen he will apply for his parents to live permanently in the USA, it means with you guys!.

From the last discussion with him, I think you may be right. He was musing that maybe his brother could come here on a student visa, and then his parents could rotate between the two of them since I wasn't keen on them staying for such a long stretch at our place. Then he mentioned that maybe he could just become a citizen and his parents could live here, but spend more time with his brother instead of with us. This way he could still be married to me, but not lose his family either. This is the only time I've heard him mention anything like that.. so who knows if it was something he was genuinely considering, or merely musing. His brother has recently gotten serious with another Indian girl in his city (and seems interested in pursuing things further with her), so I don't think his brother has any intention to get involved with anyone from the US or come here now.

Edited February 23, 2012 by rkk1

[Darnell 8,478]

yup, it's the 10 year 'immigrate the family to usa' plan.

Good Luck !

[Sandra G. 5,047]

RKK1 I am don't want in any form or shape disrespect you but for me your husband had a plan since in the beginning " to get married and bring the whole family to live in the USA". It seems your husband believe in traditional Indian values which rarely separate parental relation and marriage,believe me It is impossible to make the USA into India!!!!! .Doesn't look like you will be able to convince him not to bring his parents every year for 6 months and after a while permanently, his parents will come over whether you like it or not then or accept the inevitable or move on...I think you deserve better!

It would be amazing if we could conciliate everything in life like to be around our parents,our friends,have a nice job,please our spouse,take all opportunities, but sometimes it doesn't work in that way.You should no longer make decisions on the basis of what would make parents happy but on the basis to build a happy and fulfilling relationship with your partner.It's time for your husband to say "mom/dad I must give myself to the building of my marriage.I love you, and I want to help you, but I must do what I believe is right for my wife and me'!!!!!!! and to be honest with you I am sure he has all step already planned, first his parents will come to the USA every year for 6 months, as soon he gets US Citizenship he will apply for his parents and they will leave permanently in the USA with you guys.My dear is time for you not to wait for his decisions and watch his plans taking place one by one, take control of your life. Take care of you.

Edited February 23, 2012 by sandranj

[Sandra G. 5,047]

I truly believe there are things to consider before getting married, before move in like have you discussed whether or not to have children? Do you have a clear idea of each other’s financial obligations?Are there some things that you and him are NOT prepared to give up in the marriage?If one of you were to be offered a career opportunity in a location far from the other’s family, are you prepared to move?. We must discuss money, sex,career,family,future life,religion an values,children...Good communication is key to a successful marriage and the communication must be there since day one!!!!!

"You cannot shake hands with a clenched fist". (Indira Gandhi).

Edited February 23, 2012 by sandranj

[Darnell 8,478]

I suggest something -

bring up the topic of 'shared debt', covering his intentions to assist in repaying your college loans for medical school.

Then let us know the result?

IMO, it's 'as heavy a topic' as his parents staying in USA for 6 months each year ..