Repeated entries WVP

[puzzled8177 0]

Hi all,

I have been reading through the forum at length and I apologize if my question seems redundant. I have been entering the US 4 times since June 2011 on a WVP, the first time I said leisure/vacation which was correct but during that stay I was introduced to someone by a friend and we connected...the rest is familiar on this forum. The 3 subsequent entries, I was truthful and said that i was coming to visit my gf. I have been told its a red flag but I have no intention of lying as I know I am not doing anything wrong. I have made many visits to the US over the years, some for leisure and some for business and have never experienced a problem including during a period I had repeated long stays to deal with a demanding client based in Florida. However, on my last entry, after answering: visiting my gf and I am planning to stay 4 to 6 weeks, the CBP officer told me I had to be careful in the future, that I was coming back and forth too often and I quote " I wouldnt want to be the one to send you home with a permanent ban". I was a bit taken aback but remained calm as, again, I had no intention of over,staying, working or getting married. I will be leaving the US soon to attend a board meeting in London but am due to come back for business only 1 week later and I am as a lot on the forum, a bit freaked out. Do I have any reasons to be worried? I am the CEO and shareholder of a UK based company, am renting an apartment there, have a car in London, ample funds on my bank account and can demonstrate liquid assets in excess of 1M $, am also due to travel to the UAE, Slovakia and Israel to meet clients in the coming months. So there is no way I would ever considering overstaying.

I welcome all suggestions, but without wanting to offend anyone I am already aware that " it depends on the CBP officer at the POE"

Thanks

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

The agent can't give you a ban, but if you are refused on the VWP then you will no longer be eligible to use it. You'd have to get a B1/B2. I think the agent was just exercising petty authority to scare you into visiting less frequently. You have strong evidence you will leave and frequent international trips also work in your favor. However, there is a yearly limit of days you can be here on the VWP (180 I believe) so it you have been here near to that in a year period then you might have to cool it. Good luck.

[puzzled8177 0]

The agent can't give you a ban, but if you are refused on the VWP then you will no longer be eligible to use it. You'd have to get a B1/B2. I think the agent was just exercising petty authority to scare you into visiting less frequently. You have strong evidence you will leave and frequent international trips also work in your favor. However, there is a yearly limit of days you can be here on the VWP (180 I believe) so it you have been here near to that in a year period then you might have to cool it. Good luck.

Toda Harpa By the time I leave and come back, I will have been in the US a total of 120 days in a rolling year starting june 2011. I realise it is relatively close to the limit. Also, I am not sure if it makes a difference but the CBP officer still gave me 3 months stamped on my passport. Technically, by the time I come back, I will still be within the length of time I am legally allowed to be in the US.

[Moomin 292]

Yes you're granted 90 days in VWP. You departure record probably shows a different pattern than staying until the 90th day so when you enter again you'll get another stamp. VWP countries have been "pre-approved"(hence the waiver) but it doesn't mean that all citizens are allowed into the US on the assumption that no one is taking advantage of it - same rules apply with a tourist visa. Even though you've only been in the US for 120 days the magic number isn't always 180 days and then you're good. Travelling alone and having been in the states for a 120 days since June is most likely why you were singled out now.

Lease, self supporting, your employment, all good ties to your home country, same with return ticket. I'll be honest and say no matter what you bring there's no guarantee you'd be let in. Esp. the employment when you're there for business is good backup and even if the CBP officer doesn't ask for it, it might give you a little piece of mind. They read your body language well; being honest means you have nothing to hide.

..and I'll also mention that I didn't start to freak out until gaining too much knowledge about being denied entry. Be prepared but don't read a hundred horror stories about being denied, IMO.

[canadian_wife 1,829]

Toda Harpa By the time I leave and come back, I will have been in the US a total of 120 days in a rolling year starting june 2011. I realise it is relatively close to the limit. Also, I am not sure if it makes a difference but the CBP officer still gave me 3 months stamped on my passport. Technically, by the time I come back, I will still be within the length of time I am legally allowed to be in the US.

Well, when you leave, your authorized say stops. You shouldn't think that you will automatically be allowed to re-enter because the CBP granted you 90 days on this last visit and you'll be leaving and returning within those 90 days. Each attempt at entering is a separate appliation for entrance. Nothing is ever a guarentee and if you'd like to help your case, begin traveling with ties to the UK

Now you've raise eyebrows with your honesty of visiting your girlfriend and your frequent trips to the US. Dont' be too surprised if after this 'warning' you are treated differently. Out of approximatly 210 days (since June 2011) you've spent 120 of them in the US.

Good luck

[puzzled8177 0]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the feedback. I have strong ties to the UK of course as this is where I live and have my business. It seems however that so much is left to the feeling of the CBP that even a clear conscience and the real and provable strength of those ties I'd better be prepared, so i have a few more more questions:

Can the CBP refuse entry without a secondary interview where I would comfortably demonstrate the legitimate nature of my travels? Can you request a secondary interview?

If I come "prepared" with all sorts of documents, does it kind of show that I feared being denied entry and in consequence may have something to hide?

What documents should I have? Lease, car note, business cards, bills,bank statements, emails from clients confirming our meetings in various countries ( I already have some of my flights booked)?

My business meetings are in Florida, should I enter via Miami or via Orlando? I read that some POEs are a bit more " relaxed" ?

Thank you

Well, when you leave, your authorized say stops. You shouldn't think that you will automatically be allowed to re-enter because the CBP granted you 90 days on this last visit and you'll be leaving and returning within those 90 days. Each attempt at entering is a separate appliation for entrance. Nothing is ever a guarentee and if you'd like to help your case, begin traveling with ties to the UK

Now you've raise eyebrows with your honesty of visiting your girlfriend and your frequent trips to the US. Dont' be too surprised if after this 'warning' you are treated differently. Out of approximatly 210 days (since June 2011) you've spent 120 of them in the US.

Good luck

[Boiler 46,130]

Sounds like you are definitely pushing it, for the Business meeting I guess you will have a copy of your itinerary, meeting etc.

I would give the gf trips a rest and get her to travel to the UK.

Yes you would be sent to secondary, that is where you go if they are thinking you have issues they can not deal with at the desk.

You would be quizzed, probably the worst thing they would do is put you on the next plane back, but they could deport you.

[Moomin 292]

You'll probably be given a chance to explain/demonstrate your plans to return and show your ties if you're pulled aside. However your main issue if having spent a larger amount of time in the US than the average traveler. I can't answer about Miami vs. Orlando since I haven't been there.

My aunt and uncle entered without any problems, a 2 months trip. All they had was return tickets, intl. travel insurance for the duration of stay, and travel plans. They reeked of tourist and before presenting anything, they had stamps and out in no time. It clearly reeked of tourists, and traveling together didn't hurt them. That's the purpose of VWP, anything above-average activities(or out of the ordinary in their eyes), you're putting yourself in risk of being questioned about the nature of your stay and being pointing into another direction of applying for the right visa or simply by taking a break from your visits.

This might be the source of information you're looking for: http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/legally_admitted_to_the_u_s.xml

"If you are an alien, the CBP Officer must determine why you are coming to the United States, what documents you may require, if you have those documents, and how long you should be allowed to initially stay in the United States. These determinations usually take less than one minute to make(...)

Also, If you are an alien, CBP Officers may decide that you should not be permitted to enter the United States. There are many reasons why this might happen (see INA § 212(a)). You will either be placed in detention, or temporarily held until return flight arrangements can be made. If you have a visa, it may be cancelled. In certain instances, Officer(s) may not be able to decide if you should be allowed into the United States. In this case, your inspection may be deferred (postponed), and you will be instructed to go to another office located near your intended destination in the United States for further processing."

[puzzled8177 0]

Thanks everyone,

Maybe I should listen to Moomin and stop freaking out, it won't help but I guess better warned than sorry.

What is the technical difference between being put on a flight back and being deported? Is it the " voluntary departure" thing where it doesn't stop you from coming back at a later date?

I understand the length of time is an issue but it appears nowhere in the official websites, is it again something left tot he discretion of the CBP officer?

You'll probably be given a chance to explain/demonstrate your plans to return and show your ties if you're pulled aside. However your main issue if having spent a larger amount of time in the US than the average traveler. I can't answer about Miami vs. Orlando since I haven't been there.

My aunt and uncle entered without any problems, a 2 months trip. All they had was return tickets, intl. travel insurance for the duration of stay, and travel plans. They reeked of tourist and before presenting anything, they had stamps and out in no time. It clearly reeked of tourists, and traveling together didn't hurt them. That's the purpose of VWP, anything above-average activities(or out of the ordinary in their eyes), you're putting yourself in risk of being questioned about the nature of your stay and being pointing into another direction of applying for the right visa or simply by taking a break from your visits.

This might be the source of information you're looking for: http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/legally_admitted_to_the_u_s.xml

"If you are an alien, the CBP Officer must determine why you are coming to the United States, what documents you may require, if you have those documents, and how long you should be allowed to initially stay in the United States. These determinations usually take less than one minute to make(...)

Also, If you are an alien, CBP Officers may decide that you should not be permitted to enter the United States. There are many reasons why this might happen (see INA § 212(a)). You will either be placed in detention, or temporarily held until return flight arrangements can be made. If you have a visa, it may be cancelled. In certain instances, Officer(s) may not be able to decide if you should be allowed into the United States. In this case, your inspection may be deferred (postponed), and you will be instructed to go to another office located near your intended destination in the United States for further processing."

[canadian_wife 1,829]

Being denied entry won't impact your future attempts to return to the US (with the exception of the complications of using the VWP again) but an expedited removal or a deportation will

I've been denied entry..twice. Once the man beside me got an expedited removal (treated the same as a deportation) with very little difference between my case and his. So who knows!

Good luck

[puzzled8177 0]

Thank you for that further bit of info? Without prying can you briefly explained to me why you were denied entry? Sorry for all the added questions but if I feel like the odds are badly stacked I will give it more time before coming back.

Best

Being denied entry won't impact your future attempts to return to the US (with the exception of the complications of using the VWP again) but an expedited removal or a deportation will

I've been denied entry..twice. Once the man beside me got an expedited removal (treated the same as a deportation) with very little difference between my case and his. So who knows!

Good luck

[Moomin 292]

I guess technically, you need to already be in the country to be deported. Being denied is being refused entry, meaning you never made it to the other side of an officer. Either you withdraw your application of admission(fine words they use for being allowed into the US:) ) or you're being denied and take it from there - the last option is what Canadian_wife experienced. Somebody please correct me if I messed up this one.

Whatever you do, don't lie. When you're there for business, that's the purpose, when you're there visiting your fiancee, then that's your purpose. Being caught in a lie isn't only a simple denial but adds misrepresentation and that's when you'll jeopardize chances of getting a (tourist) visa. Being denied due to lack of ties to home country is easier to overcome later on. Basically, the "strong proof of ties to home country" they may ask to see at POE is the same evidence you'd have to show if you applied for a tourist visa.

If you applied for a tourist visa NOW and it got denied, you wouldn't be able to use VWP either so in my opinion, if you're not taking a break from visiting anyway, better take the chance on VWP and be honest.

Yep, discretion of an officer. Keep in mind that you'll mostly read about the ones who had problems at POE because they might've needed assistance with what to do unlike the ones who never got questioned or denied, just like you didn't think much of it before.

Edited January 16, 2012 by moomin

[Boiler 46,130]

If you are refused a Visa you would have to update ESTA which may result in a VWP refusal.

[canadian_wife 1,829]

I guess technically, you need to already be in the country to be deported. Being denied is being refused entry, meaning you never made it to the other side of an officer. Either you withdraw your application of admission(fine words they use for being allowed into the US:) ) or you're being denied and take it from there - the last option is what Canadian_wife experienced. Somebody please correct me if I messed up this one.

Whatever you do, don't lie. When you're there for business, that's the purpose, when you're there visiting your fiancee, then that's your purpose. Being caught in a lie isn't only a simple denial but adds misrepresentation and that's when you'll jeopardize chances of getting a (tourist) visa. Being denied due to lack of ties to home country is easier to overcome later on. Basically, the "strong proof of ties to home country" they may ask to see at POE is the same evidence you'd have to show if you applied for a tourist visa.

If you applied for a tourist visa NOW and it got denied, you wouldn't be able to use VWP either so in my opinion, if you're not taking a break from visiting anyway, better take the chance on VWP and be honest.

Yep, discretion of an officer. Keep in mind that you'll mostly read about the ones who had problems at POE because they might've needed assistance with what to do unlike the ones who never got questioned or denied, just like you didn't think much of it before.

An expedited removal is also a possibility. Not the same as a deportation (because there is no judge involved) but treated the same for purposes of returning to the US.

OP - I was married to an American, spent a LOT of time in the US, and failed to show strong ties to Canada. That was the reason for my denials

Good luck

[puzzled8177 0]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my many questions. While I understand the various rules at play that the CBP officers have to consider, I find it so strange that someone with my record of international travel, numerous visits to the US without ever contravening to any rule would be given a hard time. I dont mean to pretend I am special but I have contributed 100s of thousand of dollars to the US economy through my stays and I believe that this country, that I have immense affection for, is in danger of throwing the baby with the bath water with their tightening.

All said, I think that I will reschedule my business trip and leave it a good month before coming back

quote name='canadian_wife' timestamp='1326795315' post='5106156']

An expedited removal is also a possibility. Not the same as a deportation (because there is no judge involved) but treated the same for purposes of returning to the US.

OP - I was married to an American, spent a LOT of time in the US, and failed to show strong ties to Canada. That was the reason for my denials

Good luck