How can a K-1 misrepresentation denial be overturned?

[AKSinghSingh79 143]

Thanks for the advice. I work as a tax accountant, different government branch, but I appreciate the advice of not bringing possible issues to the government's attention - even when you think you're trying to clarify an issue. So I will heed that.

Any more surprises you can think of that one should watch out for?

Be prepared to back up your statements with evidence if at all possible. For instance, if you say your mother and your fiance have met and get along very well be prepared to accompany that statement with something more substantial like photos of them together or correspondence between them.

When dealing with immigration, "words are cheap" and strong evidence speaks much more clearly about the relationship than anything the beneficiary says.

[AKSinghSingh79 143]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, some folks like to have a religious ceremony "in-country" and then have a civil ceremony once the fiance(e) arrives in the US. It may not have happened in this case, but was obviously deemed by the CO to be a real wedding and not just an engagement celebration.

And the US Embassy in India could easily recognize a "practice" religious wedding as a bonafide marriage, even if it was an engagement celebration. Check the link below.

http://newdelhi.usem...s/marriage.html

Yes. Absolutely true especially in India. I have heard case where very elaborate engagements were heavily scrutinized by COs. This makes sense because a lot of the traditional elements present in Indian engagement are also present in Indian weddings, i.e. mehandi on the woman's hands (on the feet as well for weddings), the exchange of garlands, gold worn by both parties, etc...

Also, you can marry in a temple in India but never register the marriage. This type of ceremony is not typically recognized in Indian courts as a legal marriage (unless it's in accordance with the Hindu Marriage Act) but the US would still associate the couple as married.

[AKSinghSingh79 143]

This is kind of a tangent to the current conversation, but taking your advice, I will have to cull my log of correspondence of emails and chat transcripts with such marital references. I don't want to start at square one, so how much regular correspondence should be required to be included with the petition then. Normally we chat almost daily. Should I include a sampling (through out the term of the relationship), or include all. Can a couple records per week be enough. For a while we were using the husband and wife reference a lot. It has tapered off, since my fiancee is now on a "baby" kick. Still it does come up periodically (of course will stop it now). So I may have a lot to pull out during certain periods and less during others. It will be a pain to go through though.

I don't see any need to include all correspondence. Chances are nobody is going to take the time to sort through all of that. A sampling of chats from the beginning of your relationship to the present showing a clear timeline of your relationship would be more than sufficient.

[AKSinghSingh79 143]

Good unmarried Indian boys and girls don't take trips to Goa. Chances are most Indian parents wouldn't approve of an overnight trip prior to marriage, even if the couple is engaged. Things like that, it looks bad.

Ha, it figures you would pick up on my "subtle" reference to Goa.

VERY true of India though! Things like this that no American would bat an eye at can be heavily scrutinized in India. I recall reading a thread a while ago about an Indian couple going through the K-1 and being denied because they took a trip together alone and the CO thought they must be married because as you said, no Indian parent would allow their unmarried son or daughter to do this.

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

Thank you for your response and I understand what you mean. I am Catholic and he is Armenian Orthodox so we are doing things very different from what I know. The priest is aware that this is an engagement and he has to certify that we are engaged, so there is no confusion about what he is doing. He is coming to the restaurant for the dinner/party. Also I believe the rings are blessed because they will also be our wedding rings. For the engagement we both wear them on the right hand and at the wedding ceremony we then move it to the left. There is no other option because they have ways of doing things and we are going to follow it. Certainly, we will make sure everything says engagement such as our invitations, cake, banners, photos, newspaper ads, etc. I hope that will be sufficient for K-1 purposes because I wouldn't want to completely disrespect my future family.

From a cursory glance at eastern orthodox marriage traditions, blessing of the rings is a part of the betrothal part of a marriage ceremony. In some places, a betrothal is a legal relationship very similar to a marriage. Since you are not familiar with the tradition, you could easily be getting married and your fiance could just tell you it's "just an engagement" when no such thing exists in the tradition. Betrothal is not the same as engagement.

When you say "they have ways of doing things and we are going to follow it" it sounds like you are getting tricked into getting married. Saying "engagement" all over a wedding or betrothal ceremony does not make it different. It's nice to be respectful, but you need to follow the terms of the K-1 visa and the laws of the US. If it is important to have an eastern orthodox wedding, then maybe you should just get married abroad.

[Love's JAA 100]

I didn't only post this case for suggestions. It should also serve as a learning experience for future applicants. Do not give the COs any ammunition that they could use as a basis to deny you or flag you for material misrepresentation (if they believe you to be married and filing for a K-1 fiance visa). This means do not include any chat logs, cards, or emails where you refer to each other as husband and wife. I don't think attaching a note explaining the reasons behind the nicknames would help your case. In fact it may hurt it because it is directing attention to the content of your conversations.

I agree, a rejection is harsh, being slapped with a denial for fraud and material misrepresentation is even more extreme. It's always better to be safe. Surely there are other things you can attach as evidence. Instead of the cards showing the content you can attach a copy of the envelope they were sent in which lists the recipients address and the date is was postmarked. Also you can show call records or chat logs without the content of the conversation.

If you do want to include correspondence, screen your messages meticulously. Also I wouldn't recommend blacking out husband and wife either because the CO reviewing your case may think you are trying to hide something especially if there is a pattern involved.

Best of luck! I wish you a smooth process and a quick approval!

As I was just realizing, my fiancee's sisters have been calling me brother, and so then I in turn calling them sister. Her nephew is now referring to me as uncle. My fiancee has been calling my mother, "Mom". So I should put a kabosh on all that as well, do you think?

[StraightShooter 62]

As I was just realizing, my fiancee's sisters have been calling me brother, and so then I in turn calling them sister. Her nephew is now referring to me as uncle. My fiancee has been calling my mother, "Mom". So I should put a kabosh on all that as well, do you think?

I sure would. Imagine if a CO views their Facebook pages or otherwise contacts them and they refer to you as brother, uncle etc.? Yow.

This thread has been a real eye-opener for sure!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

This is kind of a tangent to the current conversation, but taking your advice, I will have to cull my log of correspondence of emails and chat transcripts with such marital references. I don't want to start at square one, so how much regular correspondence should be required to be included with the petition then. Normally we chat almost daily. Should I include a sampling (through out the term of the relationship), or include all. Can a couple records per week be enough. For a while we were using the husband and wife reference a lot. It has tapered off, since my fiancee is now on a "baby" kick. Still it does come up periodically (of course will stop it now). So I may have a lot to pull out during certain periods and less during others. It will be a pain to go through though.

Depends. I gave 3 emails from each of us PLUS an email "log" that listed all of our correspondence simply by date and time, so it showed thousands of emails but not the taxt portion, just the "subject" and date/time. They never looked at any of them and we were approved without even a single question. But that is Kiev, and your consulate will be different

[vosnmars 25]

From a cursory glance at eastern orthodox marriage traditions, blessing of the rings is a part of the betrothal part of a marriage ceremony. In some places, a betrothal is a legal relationship very similar to a marriage. Since you are not familiar with the tradition, you could easily be getting married and your fiance could just tell you it's "just an engagement" when no such thing exists in the tradition. Betrothal is not the same as engagement.

When you say "they have ways of doing things and we are going to follow it" it sounds like you are getting tricked into getting married. Saying "engagement" all over a wedding or betrothal ceremony does not make it different. It's nice to be respectful, but you need to follow the terms of the K-1 visa and the laws of the US. If it is important to have an eastern orthodox wedding, then maybe you should just get married abroad.

I understand what you mean regarding blessing of the rings and it is important to hear other view points on a subject matter. However, everything will be conducted in English and although I am not intimately familiar with all the practices, I have looked into it and it does exist so there is no just telling me or trickery. I realize the part that makes this complicated is the priest and how it could be misconstrued. We will follow all the laws and terms of the K-1 visa. I will discuss it further with my fiance.

Also, I am sorry, but I do not agree with your statement that if it is important to us to have that type of wedding, then we should get married abroad. We can do it just the same right here in Houston, Texas at the Armenian Orthodox Church.

Thank you for your responses and your time.

[TBoneTX 45,777]

As I was just realizing, my fiancee's sisters have been calling me brother, and so then I in turn calling them sister. Her nephew is now referring to me as uncle. My fiancee has been calling my mother, "Mom". So I should put a kabosh on all that as well, do you think?

Your earlier questions (all very pertinent) have been answered superlatively by others (thanks, si man).

The thing to remember, whether you're enclosing extra material with the I-129F petition or bringing it to the consular visa interview, is that you have and need to maintain control of what others see, at all costs. You have the power to prevent cans of worms from being opened. Ruthlessly cull your correspondence where there's ANY mention of "husband/wife." Purge your Facebook and other social-media pages of any such references, and be sure that all of your relatives do the same.

Whether with the petition or in materials for the interview, present NOTHING that's redacted or blanked out. Someone recently posted, or I heard about it outside of here, that a CO issued a 221g (formal hold on visa-issuance) until a couple presented the unredacted version of an e-mail that they'd presented in which a line had been blacked out. Fortunately, they had it and the original text was nothing untoward, and they then got the visa.

Even if you present a message-log only, be SURE that the titles of the messages or e-mails do NOT contain references to "husband/wife" or any other relationship that would indicate marriage. Your goal is to present yourselves as fiance/fiancee only, with no possible shred of doubt that could occur to even the most suspicious reader.

If you accept this advice and follow it, then we here have done what VisaJourney is for -- provided input to ease and facilitate your efforts. It's really good that you spoke out with your questions at this stage, when there's still time to take the appropriate corrective actions!

[vs2011 3]

This is a great topic. I recently went on a trip to India to visit my fiancee. I was gone for a whole month and during my trip to India, I surprised my fiancee with a trip to Goa and the Maldives. It was just her and I. We ran into problems going through immigration to the Maldives. The immigration officer at the counter was convinced that we were both married. That we both ran away and and got married together! I was baffled by this!! Blown away, shocked!! I told him no we are just going on a small vacation. But he was not changing his mind. Even though it doesn't matter if we are engaged, married, friends, classmates, etc we would be able to travel because no where on the immigration form does it say 'Married' or 'Single' or anything about marital status, mainly just asks purpose of visit, passport information, contact information, etc.

Regardless, we were both able to go to the Maldives and come back without any further problems. Obviously we were both shaken up quite a bit from the experience due to the pending K1 fiance visa.

Her parents and my parents knew about the trip before hand. I asked her family if it was ok before I booked anything.

Advice? Tips? Is this something that will come up during the interview? Potential problems...?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The CO saw an online album that was labelled as "wedding". Even with that, it still seems very harsh to issue someone a misrepresentation slip immediately without giving them a chance to prove they are not married. This to me does not constitute strong evidence of being married.

She has involved an attorney since the start of their K-1 and has contacted them already but I've also heard that attorneys cannot do much at this stage. In this case, wouldn't a letter to a senator's office make a difference?

Why do people do such stupid things? And what do you expect a Senator to do? Tell someone he really did not see what he saw? That actually is plenty of evidence to deny a visa and issue a ban and a Senator cannot change it or even get involved (it is called "separation of powers" in the constitution) unless the consulate has not complied with the LAW and even then he can only contact the Inspector General for that consulate. Senators are not the "boss" of the state department.

Really, she is telling anyone in the world she is married, except the CO who she is telling she is not married because a K-1 processes faster than a CR-1 and you do not consider that evidence of visa fraud?

Attorneys can do nothing. I am guessing she did not consult with her attorney before posting nonsense online for the world to look at it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Your earlier questions (all very pertinent) have been answered superlatively by others (thanks, si man).

The thing to remember, whether you're enclosing extra material with the I-129F petition or bringing it to the consular visa interview, is that you have and need to maintain control of what others see, at all costs. You have the power to prevent cans of worms from being opened. Ruthlessly cull your correspondence where there's ANY mention of "husband/wife." Purge your Facebook and other social-media pages of any such references, and be sure that all of your relatives do the same.

Whether with the petition or in materials for the interview, present NOTHING that's redacted or blanked out. Someone recently posted, or I heard about it outside of here, that a CO issued a 221g (formal hold on visa-issuance) until a couple presented the unredacted version of an e-mail that they'd presented in which a line had been blacked out. Fortunately, they had it and the original text was nothing untoward, and they then got the visa.

Even if you present a message-log only, be SURE that the titles of the messages or e-mails do NOT contain references to "husband/wife" or any other relationship that would indicate marriage. Your goal is to present yourselves as fiance/fiancee only, with no possible shred of doubt that could occur to even the most suspicious reader.

If you accept this advice and follow it, then we here have done what VisaJourney is for -- provided input to ease and facilitate your efforts. It's really good that you spoke out with your questions at this stage, when there's still time to take the appropriate corrective actions!

Thank you Tbone!

Remember that until your fiancee/spouse is a US citizen you are NOT in a "normal" relationship. You are in a relationship that will be judged over and over by people that do not know you and make decisions about you in just a few seconds based on what YOU show them, sometimes without ever talking to you (this is what happens when you get a green card renewed without an interview, for example)

You need to conduct yourself accordingly and then have a big bonfire when she gets her US passport!

[AKSinghSingh79 143]

This is a great topic. I recently went on a trip to India to visit my fiancee. I was gone for a whole month and during my trip to India, I surprised my fiancee with a trip to Goa and the Maldives. It was just her and I. We ran into problems going through immigration to the Maldives. The immigration officer at the counter was convinced that we were both married. That we both ran away and and got married together! I was baffled by this!! Blown away, shocked!! I told him no we are just going on a small vacation. But he was not changing his mind. Even though it doesn't matter if we are engaged, married, friends, classmates, etc we would be able to travel because no where on the immigration form does it say 'Married' or 'Single' or anything about marital status, mainly just asks purpose of visit, passport information, contact information, etc.

Regardless, we were both able to go to the Maldives and come back without any further problems. Obviously we were both shaken up quite a bit from the experience due to the pending K1 fiance visa.

Her parents and my parents knew about the trip before hand. I asked her family if it was ok before I booked anything.

Advice? Tips? Is this something that will come up during the interview? Potential problems...?

It may come up in the interview. My advice is to always be prepared to handle a potential question a CO might throw at you. I can tell you truthfully that I have read topics on VJ posted by India members that have had issues with taking a vacation together prior to marriage. The CO was convinced they were married and on their honeymoon. Be prepared to rebut this with affidavits from parents and documents showing you are not yet married.

[AKSinghSingh79 143]

Why do people do such stupid things? And what do you expect a Senator to do? Tell someone he really did not see what he saw? That actually is plenty of evidence to deny a visa and issue a ban and a Senator cannot change it or even get involved (it is called "separation of powers" in the constitution) unless the consulate has not complied with the LAW and even then he can only contact the Inspector General for that consulate. Senators are not the "boss" of the state department.

Really, she is telling anyone in the world she is married, except the CO who she is telling she is not married because a K-1 processes faster than a CR-1 and you do not consider that evidence of visa fraud?

Attorneys can do nothing. I am guessing she did not consult with her attorney before posting nonsense online for the world to look at it.

Thank you for the straight answer. I understand the extent of a Senator's abilities better now.

They did make a fatal mistake and they are unfortunately paying a high price for that now.

Regardless, the conclusion the CO came to was false. They are not married.

What is the best route now? Wait in limbo for a possible NOIR to come or withdraw the petition, get married, and refile via CR-1?