Is being 'hard headed' a RUB chick trait ?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The strong family view of Russians is a myth. That is to say, if you factor men into "family," you see an absence of healthy male involvement chronically...so where is this great "family?" Who among us has not heard about the drunken and abusive husband/father/boyfriend milieu in the FSU? And there may be a "family unit," but often without official marriage, as couples shack-up for awhile, then split.

What is true, I think, is that women band together to survive and lean on mother and, if he's not too drunk, father for help. So, the women take care of mom and their children...often spoiling the ####### out of their kids...especially the sons. I saw this with my wife and her son. And I learned that between me and her son, I was always second fiddle.

The interesting thing about Russian women is, though they seem to love their kids (or struggle with guilt and overcompensate), they will have an abortion without hesitation. No problems with that procedure at all in Russia.

Rather than seeing a strong family, I see a dysfunctional society that hasn't gotten away from drunken and abusive men/husbands and confused and misguided women/wives...both genders too often showing poor judgment and weak character.

That is not strictly a Russian trait, but also common in most struggling communities, especially in the Latin American, Western Pacific, and among many indigenous populations, like aboriginal Americans. Do Russian families invest heavily in the eldest son, with the hope that once he succeeds, he can take care of the younger siblings' education, and the parents in their old age? Or, are they relying on their daughters as a fallback position, to find a generous North American, or Western European that will provide a path for the family out of subsistence living?

Edited December 25, 2011 by ☼

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The strong family view of Russians is a myth. That is to say, if you factor men into "family," you see an absence of healthy male involvement chronically...so where is this great "family?" Who among us has not heard about the drunken and abusive husband/father/boyfriend milieu in the FSU? And there may be a "family unit," but often without official marriage, as couples shack-up for awhile, then split.

What is true, I think, is that women band together to survive and lean on mother and, if he's not too drunk, father for help. So, the women take care of mom and their children...often spoiling the ####### out of their kids...especially the sons. I saw this with my wife and her son. And I learned that between me and her son, I was always second fiddle.

The interesting thing about Russian women is, though they seem to love their kids (or struggle with guilt and overcompensate), they will have an abortion without hesitation. No problems with that procedure at all in Russia.

Rather than seeing a strong family, I see a dysfunctional society that hasn't gotten away from drunken and abusive men/husbands and confused and misguided women/wives...both genders too often showing poor judgment and weak character.

You will always be second fiddle to a woman's children, whether or not you are the fater of them and you should be proud to be number 2. This is a case of unrealistic expectations causing disappontment. Adults are number 2. Children come first. Get enjoyment from that and you will always be happy, it is right there for the taking. If you see them as competitors for money affection, care, concern...you will lose.

In my experience living there, Ukrainian children were the best behaved I have ever seen, and they seem to respect elders even in public. I am sure there are some bad ones. Alla definitely does NOT spoil the children and even thinks I do more than her. She is very strict with them and expects nothing but the best performance from them. If there GPA is 3.95, then why is it not a 4.0? They never give us any backtalk or "lip" they just do what they are told.

The father is important in RUB families but often abdicates his responsibility and power to the bottle and then dies young or runs around with younger women.

But, hey, Alla's ex drank and beat her right into a divorce so she was available for ME. One day I am going to shake his hand for that. He ignores his wonderful sons so I get to have all the fun with them, and caring for the children is the best way to keep Alla and I together. Win, Win, Win!

Nothing like competing against a dumb@ss.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

That is not strictly a Russian trait, but also common in most struggling communities, especially in the Latin American, Western Pacific, and among many indigenous populations, like aboriginal Americans. Do Russian families invest heavily in the eldest son, with the hope that once he succeeds, he can take care of the younger siblings' education, and the parents in their old age? Or, are they relying on their daughters as a fallback position, to find a generous North American, or Western European that will provide a path for the family out of subsistence living?

None of the above in my experience. Mothers and grand mothers will invest everything in the children, boys or girls, so they can have a better life, not to support the rest of the family, but so they can have their OWN families.

I have not of heard of any that expect the American guy to support the family in a RUB country. Not to say it does not exist but it is not common.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The strong family view of Russians is a myth. That is to say, if you factor men into "family," you see an absence of healthy male involvement chronically...so where is this great "family?" Who among us has not heard about the drunken and abusive husband/father/boyfriend milieu in the FSU? And there may be a "family unit," but often without official marriage, as couples shack-up for awhile, then split.

What is true, I think, is that women band together to survive and lean on mother and, if he's not too drunk, father for help. So, the women take care of mom and their children...often spoiling the ####### out of their kids...especially the sons. I saw this with my wife and her son. And I learned that between me and her son, I was always second fiddle.

The interesting thing about Russian women is, though they seem to love their kids (or struggle with guilt and overcompensate), they will have an abortion without hesitation. No problems with that procedure at all in Russia.

Rather than seeing a strong family, I see a dysfunctional society that hasn't gotten away from drunken and abusive men/husbands and confused and misguided women/wives...both genders too often showing poor judgment and weak character.

Most Russian women have more abortions than children. Shocking yes? At least statistically speaking. 3 abortions for every 2 live births. I attribute this to

1. lack of use of birth control or relying on unreliable methods.

2. A pretty accepting attitude toward sex in general

3. The desire to raise a child properly and if they think they cannot, they will not do it

4. The unique FSU "situational morality". If you "have to do it" it is OK, whatever "it" is. A lot of sins are forgiven because they "had to do it" This stems from Soviet times when a person got a small salary but also pilfered whatever his/her job provided him and traded it for other stuff pilfered by other people. All was OK if it was "for bread" The trait makes a me a bit uneasy at times but the people seem responsible about it. This is why bribery remains so pervasive. "I needed the document in less than 3 weeks and the government worker is underpaid and needs the money to eat" All is OK! The postman charges my MIL $1 for her pension check..."he is underpaid, he has to eat also"

[eekee 182]

I think it's about being realistic/practical. Many Americans seem to just reproduce without thinking about, say, whether they can realistically send a kid to college. And I don't think that any sane person would willingly relinquish their kid to a Russian orphanage, so adoption isn't really an option. Plus most women seem to believe that hormonal birth control is too chemical, whereas most sexually active women in America that I know who are not actively trying to get pregnant are on the pill.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

It would seem logical that family connections increase in importance when you grow up in a country where you cannot trust the government, police, courts, etc. Everybody needs to belong and have a place to feel secure. Many people in our society get that from places other than family but my sense is that RUB people have found they have to stick together more with family and their close friends as they cannot always count on other societal structures to take care of them.

Bingo! That's about it. She calls them "her people" and it's a tight nit click that consist of family and friends of family that she grew up with. None of them trust their government and they keep a "family bank account" in Russia...for a "just in case". They all put X amount of money into that account and it's more like a co-op than anything. Like our wedding...first night was family and whoever was tight with the family...like going three generations back, and the next day it was a bit looser with school and work friends, etc... But ya, you pretty much hit it with that post.

With my wife's family age seems to rule. Babushka the reformed commie gets her ####### kissed by the rest, and then there is a pecking order. My father in law is on the outs when he's drinking, and he's near the top of that order when he's back on the wagon. Even the wife's godfather went to school with her parents and her family is tied in with godfathers family like glue. We spent more time at his family's dacha than the wife's mom and dad's dacha. It's like a little family mafia or something. And not one of them takes a ####### without the rest of the family knowing when and where. Lucky for me I'm on the good side of Babushska when she came to the conclusion that I wasn't a capitalist imperialist facist out to pervert her grand daughter with Western idea's.

If she ever found out about the wild side of her grand daughter it would probably give the ol bag a heart attack.

[james&olya 1,121]

The strong family view of Russians is a myth. That is to say, if you factor men into "family," you see an absence of healthy male involvement chronically...so where is this great "family?" Who among us has not heard about the drunken and abusive husband/father/boyfriend milieu in the FSU? And there may be a "family unit," but often without official marriage, as couples shack-up for awhile, then split.

What is true, I think, is that women band together to survive and lean on mother and, if he's not too drunk, father for help. So, the women take care of mom and their children...often spoiling the ####### out of their kids...especially the sons. I saw this with my wife and her son. And I learned that between me and her son, I was always second fiddle.

The interesting thing about Russian women is, though they seem to love their kids (or struggle with guilt and overcompensate), they will have an abortion without hesitation. No problems with that procedure at all in Russia.

Rather than seeing a strong family, I see a dysfunctional society that hasn't gotten away from drunken and abusive men/husbands and confused and misguided women/wives...both genders too often showing poor judgment and weak character.

I understand what you are saying but I think that it is possible for a society to place a high value on 'family' while at the same time other factors promote dysfunctional behaviors, such as alcoholism. For myself, and I suspect many others who post here, it would be very demoralizing to be raised and have to try to cope in a society where it was very difficult for a man to earn a decent living wage to support your wife and children. It can be psychologically castrating for many. This, in turn, can make those men who are financially successful and who don't abuse alcohol or their wives and children, 'gold' in the eyes of marriage minded women. Many of us have personally benefitted from exactly this phenomenon.

[james&olya 1,121]

You will always be second fiddle to a woman's children, whether or not you are the fater of them and you should be proud to be number 2. This is a case of unrealistic expectations causing disappontment. Adults are number 2. Children come first. Get enjoyment from that and you will always be happy, it is right there for the taking. If you see them as competitors for money affection, care, concern...you will lose.

In my experience living there, Ukrainian children were the best behaved I have ever seen, and they seem to respect elders even in public. I am sure there are some bad ones. Alla definitely does NOT spoil the children and even thinks I do more than her. She is very strict with them and expects nothing but the best performance from them. If there GPA is 3.95, then why is it not a 4.0? They never give us any backtalk or "lip" they just do what they are told.

The father is important in RUB families but often abdicates his responsibility and power to the bottle and then dies young or runs around with younger women.

But, hey, Alla's ex drank and beat her right into a divorce so she was available for ME. One day I am going to shake his hand for that. He ignores his wonderful sons so I get to have all the fun with them, and caring for the children is the best way to keep Alla and I together. Win, Win, Win!

Nothing like competing against a dumb@ss.

Very well said!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Bingo! That's about it. She calls them "her people" and it's a tight nit click that consist of family and friends of family that she grew up with. None of them trust their government and they keep a "family bank account" in Russia...for a "just in case". They all put X amount of money into that account and it's more like a co-op than anything. Like our wedding...first night was family and whoever was tight with the family...like going three generations back, and the next day it was a bit looser with school and work friends, etc... But ya, you pretty much hit it with that post.

With my wife's family age seems to rule. Babushka the reformed commie gets her ####### kissed by the rest, and then there is a pecking order. My father in law is on the outs when he's drinking, and he's near the top of that order when he's back on the wagon. Even the wife's godfather went to school with her parents and her family is tied in with godfathers family like glue. We spent more time at his family's dacha than the wife's mom and dad's dacha. It's like a little family mafia or something. And not one of them takes a ####### without the rest of the family knowing when and where. Lucky for me I'm on the good side of Babushska when she came to the conclusion that I wasn't a capitalist imperialist facist out to pervert her grand daughter with Western idea's.

If she ever found out about the wild side of her grand daughter it would probably give the ol bag a heart attack.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think it's about being realistic/practical. Many Americans seem to just reproduce without thinking about, say, whether they can realistically send a kid to college. And I don't think that any sane person would willingly relinquish their kid to a Russian orphanage, so adoption isn't really an option. Plus most women seem to believe that hormonal birth control is too chemical, whereas most sexually active women in America that I know who are not actively trying to get pregnant are on the pill.

No way Alla would take birth control pills. She will not even take aspirin for a headache. Many people consider condoms some form of insult, "they are for dirty people" and she is not having sex with a dirty person, neither she nor I are "dirty". That leaves rhythm method and point-and-shoot, neither of which are very reliable. Fortunately our advanced age is also a pretty good method

And yes, FSU women are exceedingly practical and willing to do "what they have to"

[natty bumppo 297]

No way Alla would take birth control pills. She will not even take aspirin for a headache. Many people consider condoms some form of insult, "they are for dirty people" and she is not having sex with a dirty person, neither she nor I are "dirty". That leaves rhythm method and point-and-shoot, neither of which are very reliable. Fortunately our advanced age is also a pretty good method

is that sorta like ...spray and pray?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

is that sorta like ...spray and pray?

Yeah, sorta

[eekee 182]

No way Alla would take birth control pills. She will not even take aspirin for a headache. Many people consider condoms some form of insult, "they are for dirty people" and she is not having sex with a dirty person, neither she nor I are "dirty". That leaves rhythm method and point-and-shoot, neither of which are very reliable. Fortunately our advanced age is also a pretty good method

And yes, FSU women are exceedingly practical and willing to do "what they have to"

The "condoms=you think I am dirty" thing isn't really an attitude found in people under the age of 35 or so. Unless you're sleeping with gopniks, maybe, but then I think you need to examine your choices. But yeah, the general reaction of people I know to not using condoms outside of monogamy is "####### were you thinking; go to a doctor."

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The "condoms=you think I am dirty" thing isn't really an attitude found in people under the age of 35 or so. Unless you're sleeping with gopniks, maybe, but then I think you need to examine your choices. But yeah, the general reaction of people I know to not using condoms outside of monogamy is "####### were you thinking; go to a doctor."

Thank you God Alla is safely over 35 or I would worry about the gopnik comment.

Glad to hear it about younger people since we have stressed to Sergey "Wrap it or whack it!"

[visaveteran1 33]

You will always be second fiddle to a woman's children, whether or not you are the fater of them and you should be proud to be number 2. This is a case of unrealistic expectations causing disappontment. Adults are number 2. Children come first. Get enjoyment from that and you will always be happy, it is right there for the taking. If you see them as competitors for money affection, care, concern...you will lose.

In my experience living there, Ukrainian children were the best behaved I have ever seen, and they seem to respect elders even in public. I am sure there are some bad ones. Alla definitely does NOT spoil the children and even thinks I do more than her. She is very strict with them and expects nothing but the best performance from them. If there GPA is 3.95, then why is it not a 4.0? They never give us any backtalk or "lip" they just do what they are told.

The father is important in RUB families but often abdicates his responsibility and power to the bottle and then dies young or runs around with younger women.

But, hey, Alla's ex drank and beat her right into a divorce so she was available for ME. One day I am going to shake his hand for that. He ignores his wonderful sons so I get to have all the fun with them, and caring for the children is the best way to keep Alla and I together. Win, Win, Win!

Nothing like competing against a dumb@ss.

I beg to differ a bit, Gary. In an ideal society/family unit, the father takes the son from the mother and begins a male initiation process that transitions the boy from mothered to fathered...or the "little boy" is replaced by a man. This process is ancient but dying away from many sources and enemies of strong male behavior. So, if all goes as nature intended, fathers will cease being "second fiddle" as the boy is brought into the mysterious and secret world of men, with the father leading him to a higher self-awareness as a man...not momma's nice, polite, little boy. There was a time when not everything was "coed." Men had their brotherhoods and societies and fraternal orders. Now most all-male institutions are gone. That hurts boys, in my judgment.

This isn't really women's fault except with the goofball feminists and perhaps, to some extent, working moms. Men have abdicated their duty and surrendered their original instructions to make men out of boys. In my first family when my son was ready, in my judgment, I began to take charge of teaching him what I felt he needed to grow and mature, and be able to take care of himself. I didn't do a perfect job but I stood against my wife when I felt she was stepping on my fatherly duties. She was, less and less, "the boss." My son needed to see this strength in me...to see my determination to raise him right. He did not need to see me bow down to my wife's feminine-based childrearing.

Women are caught in a paradoxical struggle...wanting strong men but needing to find ways to control them...at least until they need them to go out and kill something, or do some nasty male business that is often not pretty but completely necessary. Only, it must never be "her son." Others can do the dirty work, but her precious son will always remain her sweet little, innocent boy.

In Russia, the son remains with the mother until he moves away, if he ever does move away. He will only connect with other overly-mothered boys and so they will not be "initiated" into a man. His teachers and even doctor are probably women. This phenomena of the fatherless boy with few if any good male role models, is occurring all over the world as feminism and sorry-assed and busy or absent fathers continue to degrade the natural responsibilities of fatherhood. For American stepdads, married to Russian women with boys, they will feel both the gratitude as they do so much for the boys, but there will also be confusion and resentment. The call for connection and love from the "real dad" will be difficult to suppress...especially when the real dad is no longer seen often as drunk, absent and uncaring. With the distance between America and Russia, the boy can create in his mind that his Russian father really cares and loves him. This can cause the boy, especially if his an older teenager or young adult, to resent and resist the connection to his American stepdad...a unfortunate paradox.

You may choose to honor the all-dominating mother who "pacifies" the boy and turns him into a "nice boy" with that almost feminine energy or presence. What some call "the soft male." Yes, the soft male does well in school and eats nicely at the table...but can he be strong and have a steel spine? Probably not. Older caring male mentors, uncles and fathers can give the boy these gifts of strength, duty, honor, bravery and the willingness to become killers if something precious is threatened.

The sad thing here is Russian women, like most women if their honest, will tell you they prefer a strong man/boyfriend/husband. At least that's what I was told by a number of Russian ladies. Yet they operate in a way that does not allow the strength to be honed and case-hardened in the cauldron of authentic male life. Yes, the women do the best they can...but it will not usually make a man out of a boy.

The behavior of boys and young men in Russian is a mixed bag, but is Ukraine free of hooligans, drunk and drugged youth and even Skinheads and petty criminals? I doubt Ukraine is so different than Russia. I understand your love of the Ukraine but it is no Utopia, I'm sure. Travel off the "nice areas and streets" and see what you find. Go into some bad neighborhoods or outlying villages. See how polite the boys are in those places.

So, is Russia/Ukraine such a "family oriented society?" I see the former USSR as a feminine-driven sub-culture with an over-arching phony machoman-run, superstructure. But even the macho boss males with the power and money will chase the younger women, drink too much, act like fools and show weakness of character. Men who chronically drink, abuse and shame women/wives are not men...they're little boys in men's bodies.

Family, to me, is a father, a mother and usually children...not mom, grandma and little Ivan hanging out at the Dacha while the biological father is off drinking, chasing the revered younger women, and acting like silly boys.

Is this the fault of communism? I would hypothesize probably...and also the harshness of the vast, cold, brutal land. And then there is the Russian feudal history and Czarist style oppression.

OK...enough.

Gary, I know you like to hold Alla up as a positive model of RUB women. I'll make a judgment she is more the exception than the rule concerning RUB women, especially considering she is a USSR era woman.

I see you sharing with us the good things you do with, and for, her boys. I hope your influence on them has moved them towards that male world they will need to deal with. Nice boys may seen kind and docile, making some feel safer...but it is the real man who shows us what a boy can become with the right attention from older caring men.