My time at Walmart: Why we need serious welfare reform

[Susita 175]

2) There are enough people that will go out and harvest berries and other produce. It's a matter of working conditions and pay. Tired of this old bag of those "jobs Americans won't do". Bullshite. Time and again, Americans have stood in line for the jobs they allegedly won't do after some meat packaging plant was raided by ICE. Works every time.

I agree that many Americans have good intentions of applying for those jobs, but as we can see in the Alabama farming industry right now, they don't last but a few days, if that. We haven't performed these kind of jobs in decades, as we had a surplus of cheap, immigrant labor to do them for us. I think that during this economic crisis, people don't believe the job is below them anymore, it's just that they're not accustumed doing this kind of work for such little pay. It's exhausting, back breaking work.

If you had a choice between performing this kind of work or collecting unemployment benefits / public assistance (Where you essentially would take home almost the same pay), what would you choose? The tables would turn if the salary and benefits were competitive. Then, people would have some kind of an incentive to do this work.

Think about garbage men, here in my county people compete for that job. It's an extremely hard job!! These are all U.S. Citizen county workers who do the job. They do it because it pays a decent wage and they receive benefits. Same goes for the men doing road work.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

As I've said many times, before you'll get US Citizen (of any color) to fill the "Illegal Immigrant" jobs you need to remove Welfare, Medicaid etc. Any program that give somebody something for nothing gets thrown out the window.

Now these people will be motivated to either work or starve. Imagine all of the new jobs created in childcare now that they must work!

Of course the cost of the meat, fruit, lettuce etc will go up as a result of fair wages & benefits but our tax burden will decrease also.

[catknit 144]

How many of you have managed general labor workforces? Those chock full of people recently off of TANF or currently living with subsidies?

I spent most of this last year with a staff over a 100 in a meat packing plant. This whole system is a god awful mess.

If you think just having decent pay and benefits will bring people in you are sorely mistaken. There are so many socio-economic issues that play into it.

I managed on second shift - this is a very rural agri-business community. There is Head Start and many other options for daycare but only during the day. Any of my staff that had sick kids, child care issues, etc, would miss their shift. Simple as that. [some cases were single moms whose elderly family members couldn't handle a sick kid, others were 2 parent households were the dad typically also worked second shift - 1st shift positions were so highly sought after that that staff was typically much older, employees with 15+ years with the company]. Attendance was a reason for dismissal. All of you screaming "just get a job" - well, many did and some were really motivated workers until little Joey's asthma kicked up again. Now, from a business standpoint, my former employer couldn't have continual no-shows [and it was a pretty liberal policy - for every 28 calendar days of perfect attendance an absence was forgiven]. FMLA is only given after 2000 hours [roughly 1 year] of employment - additionally the diagnosis needs to be approved and there needs to be an "acute care" situation for 3 days. So, little Joey's issues would have mom back out on TANF or unemployment if she had worked long enough...

If it wasn't a sick kid, there would be jail time or some other court issue that would eat away at the absences allowed.

We would have problems with those smart enough to completely game the system. Those who knew exactly how many hours a week they could work and still get a lot of subsidies. Many would be people who had some time in the with company and could use FMLA - this way they could be excused for up to 12 weeks worth of time to help "regulate" their hours to stay within the minimums needed to still get "help". Legally, they were protected from being dismissed due to FMLA [you can take it in hourly increments].

Anyway - my point - I'm not a fan of the tax implications of helping to pay for these subsidized lifestyles. Nor am I a fan of people just living off the system. But, when you manage a staff full of the people who many say should be thankful to have any job and their lifestyle is not conducive to full time employment and is just a hot mess in general - it was easy for me [from the business management side] to just want them off the payroll. As a matter of fact I counseled many employees to re-evaluate what they were doing and to maybe see what other options they had because as a private industry the company wasn't there to just hope their personal issues/family got their ####### together on any given day and maybe, just maybe show up for work.

I doubt even $20/hr would have made a difference to most given the problems they were facing. [Never mind the fact everyone would be paying $11/lb if not more for chicken with those types of wages]. The going rate was $10.35/hr [based on 40hr/wk = $1700/month gross pay] plus really good medical benefits and a tuition reimbursement program [this area has a relatively low cost of living - $4-600/month for a 3 br house/apt or $75k for a decent house].

If you are constantly in family court/at the hospital/at the ped office with your kid/broken down car AGAIN, who will want to keep you on the payroll for a general labor job??? Any given week I had a dozen or more new applicants to interview - employees who were constantly absent or couldn't make quota were a drain on the business and would get replaced.

And, just in case anyone is curious, I had 10+ illegals I had to fire due to e-verify but kept 10+ that were known [by word of mouth but with no paperwork proof] to all of management as illegals because they came back as clean through e-verify. E-verify is a good tool, not a perfect tool. A good portion of my staff were TPS Haitians. About 50% were local born/raised USCs. All of the groups had "issues" whether family drama, non-stop religious obligations, poor attitude, etc. All of the groups had people I loved dearly and would work with in any environment with the utmost respect.

[Susita 175]

I managed on second shift - this is a very rural agri-business community. There is Head Start and many other options for daycare but only during the day. Any of my staff that had sick kids, child care issues, etc, would miss their shift. Simple as that. [some cases were single moms whose elderly family members couldn't handle a sick kid, others were 2 parent households were the dad typically also worked second shift - 1st shift positions were so highly sought after that that staff was typically much older, employees with 15+ years with the company]. Attendance was a reason for dismissal. All of you screaming "just get a job" - well, many did and some were really motivated workers until little Joey's asthma kicked up again.

This is definetely a problem and a factor as well. My husband and I worked this out by working opposite shifts (I work days, he works nights). It also helps that my job is flexible with me if I need to off-shift or come in early, stay late, etc.

My husband's job is not so flexible, but being that he works nights & I am home, we usually (I emphasize usually) don't have much of a problem. Last December I had surgery and he had to take a few days off to stay with the kids. My mother also helped out and took a couple of days off, she works nights also. Even with providing proof, hospital documents etc., and having sufficient personal time, they gave him an incredibly hard time. The problem is they have no coverage on his shift because they won't hire a sufficient amount of people. They want to get as much out of one person as they can.

[catknit 144]

That's so true!

I had spots to fill on a line - the work in that spot had to be done, on time, as trained. There was NO flexibility.

We also had a policy of no favors. Even if a worker was perfect and something bizarre happened in their life it had to fit the qualifications of what was laid out in the signed employee handbook. Great employee who was raised by a foster parent and the foster parent died - couldn't have an excused day off for the funeral because not an "immediate family member - immediate family members are defined as blah, blah, blah...". And if you do it for one you have to do it for everyone else - and they wouldn't tolerate that due to the threats/potential of legal issues ["but you let her have 3 more minutes in the bathroom so I'm going to HR and then call the labor department!!!" - yes, I've heard it all!].

And I know a lot of people would just say, well that's what they agreed to when they signed up to work there and they're poor and need the job and no charity for them! But, dealing with that day in and day out with a large group of people where someone always seemed to have something tragic happening in their lives - I couldn't deal with it. I'm too soft to be in that kind of management.

Even saying I'm soft I freely admit the few women I had who were scamming the system truly and completely pissed me off.

And, we had to have documentation for everything that was claimed - any FMLA request, any jail stay, death certificates for funerals, letters from teacher conferences, etc - no letter, unexcused. I never was exposed to this type of working condition before and can't imagine suffering through a life long career like that.

[Susita 175]

Even saying I'm soft I freely admit the few women I had who were scamming the system truly and completely pissed me off.

There's always a few like that.

The fact of the matter is though, people have families and obligations, and good employers promote a good work/family balance. I my job. I could be making a heck of a lot more money in private industry, but I would have to sacrifice being a mother, and it's just not worth it to me.

[웃 910]

Seriously, why should people do hard work at low wages when the Gov't makes it so easy... even a right to live in comfortable poverty?

Back in our fathers and grandfathers day Americans used to travel around the country chasing the harvesting periods.

It's so easy now you need not even trek to the Public assistance office they either mail it to your door or recharge your card via computer.

Thanks for more proof that nobody will do the work that the illegals are doing in the fields.

And that there is a larger problem at hand.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

If you are constantly in family court/at the hospital/at the ped office with your kid/broken down car AGAIN, who will want to keep you on the payroll for a general labor job??? Any given week I had a dozen or more new applicants to interview - employees who were constantly absent or couldn't make quota were a drain on the business and would get replaced.

All of these are problems that many in this country do successfully juggle to keep their family afloat.

For over 10 years I was a single father and I'd always burn through my PTO dealing with my kids' issues.

Now that I'm married again my wife works 3rd shift (we'd both prefer she didn't), it's a sacrifice we make to put our family in a better position financially.

[catknit 144]

All of these are problems that many in this country do successfully juggle to keep their family afloat.

For over 10 years I was a single father and I'd always burn through my PTO dealing with my kids' issues.

Now that I'm married again my wife works 3rd shift (we'd both prefer she didn't), it's a sacrifice we make to put our family in a better position financially.

I completely agree - many people can work through these things and I had a lot of staff who could. But, I also had a lot of new employees - typically right off of TANF or unemployment - who had no PTO [it took a year to get any] and would burn through their allowed absences in 3-6 months time due to issues out of their immediate control [child custody court cases FINALLY being processed, etc]. Even if they had doctor's notes or court appearance letters, etc they could still accumulate enough absences that would have them out the door. FMLA doesn't cover until after 2000 hours and if you hit a bad luck streak - even if you are trying your hardest - you shouldn't be working, it isn't fair to the business.

But then what do you do with the people????

Edited to add - it is truly dependent on the company too - the company had a policy that 1 week of PTO each year had to be taken as a full week, not individual days. So employees that made it to their 1st year anniversary could only take their PTO as a scheduled full week. That system makes it impossible to use PTO for emergencies.

Edited December 23, 2011 by catknit

[Susita 175]

Not to mention the lack of a support system in this country... I am blessed to have a mother and a grandmother who are able and willing to help me out if need be. Many single parents either don't have an extended family support system or their extended family has to work also and just physically CAN'T help (i.e. Little Mikey has a fever and has to get picked up from school, taken to the doctor, etc. He also has to be out for at least 24 hours, so no school for him the next day).

Ever have a kid develop Mono? or the Chicken Pox? Stuff like that, the kids have to be out of school for one week at least. There goes your accrued PTO! Now what happens if you get sick?

I'm just saying. Even if my husband weren't home during the day, I could count on a family member to lend a hand. Not everyone has that luxury.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

Not to mention the lack of a support system in this country... I am blessed to have a mother and a grandmother who are able and willing to help me out if need be. Many single parents either don't have an extended family support system or their extended family has to work also and just physically CAN'T help (i.e. Little Mikey has a fever and has to get picked up from school, taken to the doctor, etc. He also has to be out for at least 24 hours, so no school for him the next day).

Ever have a kid develop Mono? or the Chicken Pox? Stuff like that, the kids have to be out of school for one week at least. There goes your accrued PTO! Now what happens if you get sick?

I'm just saying. Even if my husband weren't home during the day, I could count on a family member to lend a hand. Not everyone has that luxury.

and it's why not everyone should Breed.

Kids are a big responsibility. A personal responsibility. One that you should not take on unless you are ready on all fronts.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

This is definetely a problem and a factor as well. My husband and I worked this out by working opposite shifts (I work days, he works nights). It also helps that my job is flexible with me if I need to off-shift or come in early, stay late, etc.

My husband's job is not so flexible, but being that he works nights & I am home, we usually (I emphasize usually) don't have much of a problem. Last December I had surgery and he had to take a few days off to stay with the kids. My mother also helped out and took a couple of days off, she works nights also. Even with providing proof, hospital documents etc., and having sufficient personal time, they gave him an incredibly hard time. The problem is they have no coverage on his shift because they won't hire a sufficient amount of people. They want to get as much out of one person as they can.

I am self employed, and my wife works full time. It works out for us. Because she in on a flex-time schedule, we only know her schedule a week, or two ahead of time. I am her only transportation as we live in a rural area, and all attempts to teach her to drive have met with disaster. But, the nature of my work allows me to schedule around her. So it is all good. If we had children, we couldn't do it.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

I completely agree - many people can work through these things and I had a lot of staff who could. But, I also had a lot of new employees - typically right off of TANF or unemployment - who had no PTO

Not every job works for every person, it really is just that simple. And the problems with no PTO have nothing to do with them just transitioning from Welfare/unemployment, it's a common new employee problem.

When the workforce is cleansed of the illegals then employers will be more flexible because they'll need to be to fill their jobs and make money. The employers who aren't will end-up finding employees who don't have family issues but they'll probably pay more (a premium if you will) for them.

The problem is that when you have a large exploitable section of the workforce it cheapens the workforce as a whole.

[catknit 144]

Not every job works for every person, it really is just that simple. And the problems with no PTO have nothing to do with them just transitioning from Welfare/unemployment, it's a common new employee problem.

When the workforce is cleansed of the illegals then employers will be more flexible because they'll need to be to fill their jobs and make money. The employers who aren't will end-up finding employees who don't have family issues but they'll probably pay more (a premium if you will) for them.

The problem is that when you have a large exploitable section of the workforce it cheapens the workforce as a whole.

But that's just it - this industry as well as the specific site where I worked - just got through a 3 year purge of illegals. What is left ARE the TANF and unemployed. [i did mention in another post that there are still technically illegals that bought good enough papers to make it through E-verify - but those are currently rare occurrences - about 10% from a high of 60% - and their papers are good anywhere since they made it through E-verify so it isn't that they are chained to chicken processing].

Agri-business here already pays a premium. People with similar jobs in this area [general labor with HS or GED - typically health aides or nutrition aides, HHAs, CNAs] do not break the $10/hr mark. The general labor at the local group home [one of the larger general labor employers in the area not in the poultry business] pays $7.25/hr, no benefits, and prefers a 32 hour work week. We now have a Walmart [yes, we're so far out here we only got a Walmart last year] and I think they are in the $10/hr arena for some positions but they have very limited full time positions available.

I spent a LOT of time counseling many people that this type of work is NOT the type of work for them. I fired a lot of people cause their lifestyle didn't work with this type of work. I know a lot of people who moved from here because the "decent" jobs are at the chicken plants and they couldn't hack the work in a chicken plant. Hell, I left the job because I couldn't handle the mix of hours, 40 degree wet processing rooms, and dealing with non-stop drama.

I completely agree that there is a large exploitable section of the workforce - it's the people coming off of unemployment and TANF.

I'm just curious as to how to handle the whole "well just get any damn job" that is constantly repeated. It's sort of pointless if someone can't hold down a job - and it's expensive for the employer [hiring, training, incoming physicals, drug screenings, background checks]. Or, when someone is in an area that they can't relocate from....no money means no moving. You can say, oh just sell everything - but I swear it's like people who make some of these comments have no clue what it's truly like to live in a blighted, impoverished rural community. Sell what? The kid's xbox??? You think he owns that? Hell no, it's being "rented to own" from Rent-a-center or Bestway - same with the furniture and tv. On the off chance the items are actually owned free and clear they are numerous years old and wont fetch any real cash. The 1989 Lumina [absolute most popular car around here]? Maybe you'd get enough $$$ for greyhound tickets for a family and a couple of weeks in a monthly rental style motel. Unless absolutely everything worked like clockwork [job was found etc but remember they now have no car], all you've done is moved a problem from one locality to another where the exact same problems will rear their ugly heads again.

Like I said before - this whole thing is a gigantic mess. I have no answers - I wish people who are on help trying to get off of it the best, I'm pissed at those who abuse it, and I think, unfortunately, fixing this problem will be case by case or locality by locality. It won't be one-size-fits all.

[Deputy Purple 1,294]

Like I said before - this whole thing is a gigantic mess. I have no answers - I wish people who are on help trying to get off of it the best, I'm pissed at those who abuse it, and I think, unfortunately, fixing this problem will be case by case or locality by locality. It won't be one-size-fits all.

Why is it the Government's job to fix?

What did people do 100 years ago?

The situation was created by the entitlement programs. They created the "Welfare Culture"...

It used to be that you finished school and started working then settled into a career. Then you got married and had kids. Today there's no rhyme or reason to it because the programs have made it easy... Have a baby and drop out of high school, start sucking on the gubermint ####### as a career...

The old way people were doing the jobs you described without seniority for several years before getting married and a few more before having kids. That way they could afford for one of the parents to either stop working (or never got started working) and be at home with the kids.

I f'ed it up, had my daughters BEFORE I got into my career but I made the correction early on. I've been at my employer for 15 years now and honestly we could afford for Anna to not work because I'm getting much better than entry level pay but we choose to deal with the hassle because we want more for our family.