I'm just curious how people feel about this

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

Hoo lawdy, not this again....

*straps in*

My answer to your original question would be...It depends. However, I do feel that the system to get people into the US is SO messed up. I live in Phoenix so I see illegals (mostly from Mexico and a few from Canada) every day. Mexico illegals normally do jobs that most American would not want to do. I would bet money that the company I hired to clean my pool, wash my car, and take care of my yard and garden are using illegal workers. There is obvious demand for the labor. What American would want to do that kind of work...especially in the 120 degree summers? Why not let them in if they want to work? As for the Canadians...I know of several retirees who work illegally in the US. They work for hardware stores, drug stores, or other 'box' stores offering advice to customers, working as cashiers, or just plain being helpful. They are working because they just want something to do.

Now...in both of these groups they are providing economic and commercial benefit to the community. Should they be sent home for that? There has been a lot of criticism of our governor (and NM's, CO's, and CA's governors) from other states of turning a blind eye to those who are in the US working illegally. The reality is that as long as they are working and productive, who cares?

Now...do we give them citizenship? Nope. You have to work for citizenship. Do it the right way. It is a special privilege to be from another country and to become a US citizen. Keep it that way.

Joel

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

Do you wear a cup when you ride the fence like this?

Oh, in case it's not clear...no, they shouldn't be granted citizenship, and NO they shouldn't be working here. Ship em back to whichever country from whence they came.

They should not stay here, but we should not 'economically benefit' from fraudulent workers either.

Look...the US is built on a LONG line of second-class citizens. It is much of the reason that most Americans came here in the first place. Irish, Chinese, German, African...all exploited. Of course illegals shouldn't be granted citizenship. That right should be reserved for legals only. But if someone finds an opportunity to make a buck doing hard work in the US then, by all means, go for it! But honestly, who will clean my pool and pick up my trash. Most Americans (including me) turn their nose up at that kind of work. I appreciate someone who is willing to do it and will pay them for it. However, if we get rid of the illegals just who will fill that economic vacuum? I assure you it will not be Americans.

Joel

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

This already happens with multinational corporations, btw. We just don't ship them here.

Well as this pertains to illegal IMMIGRATION, I fail to see what that's gotta do with anything, lol

It is the other side of the coin. The US will not allow people to come and work in the US so the jobs go to the people. Is that better then keeping people who WANT to work out (our own SOs included).

Joel

[one...two...tree 2,762]

...but yes, we need to deal with these illegal mexicans here...they're high on the list of security risks...oye!

i also suppose it never occured to you that if jose and crew can make it thru the desert, so can anyone else? by extension, if we make the borders (in particular the southern one) secure, you just shut off one way a terrorist can get into the usa. or would you prefer to trust mexico's stellar accomplishments in the arena of law enforcement and immigration to catch every potential terrorists coming in from the south? if so, you're being a fool.

it should also be noted that about 65% of consumer spending accounts for the us gdp. and about 13 billion per year is flowing south out of the usa, i must wonder what that money would do for our own economy if it was spent here......... i know i know, you don't want to hear it, as that tends to interfere with your chosen mission of giving away the country to anyone who can get here illegally

Again, was securing the borders high on the list of recommendations by the 911 Commission? So why is this a National Security issue with you, but not with them?

I'll debate the economic impact of illegal immigration with you when you concede that having them here is NOT an national security issue, nor is it a moral issue (lawbreakers).

[ieldanth 0]

With the number of people who have wrangled with this particular problem, I doubt a solution that would address all concerns would be able to fit in a book, much less a post on a message board. Maybe start with a rough, incomplete outline...

For the purposes of legal labor, we will need certain requirements to be fulfilled.

1. The applicant must have a Tax ID, not so much for the sake of taxing the worker, but for the sake of ensuring a company does not get an unfair advantage by evading payroll taxes. The amount of pay the average immigrant worker makes would end up being too low for income tax to kick in. Providing them with minimum wage rights would be another debate.

2. Any amount above the poverty line that a worker sends back to their country should have a tariff attached. This allows the worker to send back enough to support their family back home, but also protects the US from being bled dry and would provide some parity to the US worker who pays income taxes. See above as to why this would probably not kick in anyway.

3. Documentation for length of employment and who the employer will be should be submitted to the INS for the protection of the worker and to help weed out those who would exploit the system.

Economically, we need to protect the American worker.

1. If no minimum wage requirements are enforced(such as if the alien worker commutes across the border), a maximum number of these type of workers would be allowed to be employed based upon a percentage of alien vs native workers. This would be enforced at the company level, not at the worker level, with fines of 10x the discrepancy in terms of minimum wage.

2. If the worker is to be resident in the US for the duration of employment, they would automatically be entitled to minimum wage if the length of employment were beyond a certain length of time. This prevents the migrant worker from being exploited while allowing American workers to compete.

This is a flawed, incomplete, and rough idea of a possibility. I will say though that the Irish and Germans had it much easier in terms of finding work when they immigrated since the bureaucracy was not as cumbersome as it is today and the labor laws were much more lax.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I am writing an essay for a class of mine and the subject matter is -Giving A Path Of Citizenship To Illegal Immigrants-. I am curious what people's opinions are on this subject. Do you feel it would be unfair to reward illegal behavior while there are so many people going about this process legally and get denied or how do you feel? Any responses would be appreciated. Thanks

No path to citizenship for illegal aliens. Ever. Period.

Edited September 28, 2006 by ET-US2004

[one...two...tree 2,762]

With the number of people who have wrangled with this particular problem, I doubt a solution that would address all concerns would be able to fit in a book, much less a post on a message board. Maybe start with a rough, incomplete outline...

For the purposes of legal labor, we will need certain requirements to be fulfilled.

1. The applicant must have a Tax ID, not so much for the sake of taxing the worker, but for the sake of ensuring a company does not get an unfair advantage by evading payroll taxes. The amount of pay the average immigrant worker makes would end up being too low for income tax to kick in. Providing them with minimum wage rights would be another debate.

2. Any amount above the poverty line that a worker sends back to their country should have a tariff attached. This allows the worker to send back enough to support their family back home, but also protects the US from being bled dry and would provide some parity to the US worker who pays income taxes. See above as to why this would probably not kick in anyway.

3. Documentation for length of employment and who the employer will be should be submitted to the INS for the protection of the worker and to help weed out those who would exploit the system.

Economically, we need to protect the American worker.

1. If no minimum wage requirements are enforced(such as if the alien worker commutes across the border), a maximum number of these type of workers would be allowed to be employed based upon a percentage of alien vs native workers. This would be enforced at the company level, not at the worker level, with fines of 10x the discrepancy in terms of minimum wage.

2. If the worker is to be resident in the US for the duration of employment, they would automatically be entitled to minimum wage if the length of employment were beyond a certain length of time. This prevents the migrant worker from being exploited while allowing American workers to compete.

This is a flawed, incomplete, and rough idea of a possibility. I will say though that the Irish and Germans had it much easier in terms of finding work when they immigrated since the bureaucracy was not as cumbersome as it is today and the labor laws were much more lax.

I say that's a good start. I'm not sure about having tariffs on sending money out of this country - that could be unconstitutional. I'm thinking about the millions of naturalized citizens who send money to their families all the time. How about instead, place tariffs on US corporations that have moved shop over seas for cheaper labor? Fair labor and trade - I'm all for that and I do believe that is at the heart of a REAL solution to deal with the problem of illegal immigration.

[Mirorgate 0]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

Uuuummmmm.... can't undo the past, but we can fix the present. That statement is such a waste of bandwidth. Honestly, think of it this way, you were married once, you have two kids together, it didnt work out... do you go back in time and unmake all of that to erase the emotional/monetary pain and dmg that was done? Of course you wouldn't, you love your children very much. You work with the present situation, not try to erase the past.

Look...the US is built on a LONG line of second-class citizens. It is much of the reason that most Americans came here in the first place. Irish, Chinese, German, African...all exploited. Of course illegals shouldn't be granted citizenship. That right should be reserved for legals only. But if someone finds an opportunity to make a buck doing hard work in the US then, by all means, go for it! But honestly, who will clean my pool and pick up my trash. Most Americans (including me) turn their nose up at that kind of work. I appreciate someone who is willing to do it and will pay them for it. However, if we get rid of the illegals just who will fill that economic vacuum? I assure you it will not be Americans.

Joel

Been there, done that. Got the t-shirt, sox and hat. and I'm american. Sorry to have burst your bubble.

[ieldanth 0]

I say that's a good start. I'm not sure about having tariffs on sending money out of this country - that could be unconstitutional. I'm thinking about the millions of naturalized citizens who send money to their families all the time. How about instead, place tariffs on US corporations that have moved shop over seas for cheaper labor? Fair labor and trade - I'm all for that and I do believe that is at the heart of a REAL solution to deal with the problem of illegal immigration.

The tariff would not kick in until it got above the poverty line(currently around $12,000). This already happens after a fashion with customs but at a much lower amount than I proposed($3000). Send a certain amount of money out of the country and it gets taxed. Same would naturally go for corporations based in the US that hire overseas labor, since they are also sending money out of the country. One small problem that I see with this would be corporations moving their headquarters to another country. Nissan recently moved their headquarters to America, for example. How to get around that...

Also, would we impose tariffs on foreign corporations doing business here while enjoying cheap labor back home? This is where the issue gets a bit thorny...

[Fandango 1,440]

Hoo lawdy, not this again....

*straps in*

My answer to your original question would be...It depends. However, I do feel that the system to get people into the US is SO messed up. I live in Phoenix so I see illegals (mostly from Mexico and a few from Canada) every day. Mexico illegals normally do jobs that most American would not want to do. I would bet money that the company I hired to clean my pool, wash my car, and take care of my yard and garden are using illegal workers. There is obvious demand for the labor. What American would want to do that kind of work...especially in the 120 degree summers? Why not let them in if they want to work? As for the Canadians...I know of several retirees who work illegally in the US. They work for hardware stores, drug stores, or other 'box' stores offering advice to customers, working as cashiers, or just plain being helpful. They are working because they just want something to do.

Now...in both of these groups they are providing economic and commercial benefit to the community. Should they be sent home for that? There has been a lot of criticism of our governor (and NM's, CO's, and CA's governors) from other states of turning a blind eye to those who are in the US working illegally. The reality is that as long as they are working and productive, who cares?

Now...do we give them citizenship? Nope. You have to work for citizenship. Do it the right way. It is a special privilege to be from another country and to become a US citizen. Keep it that way.

Joel

So you're saying they're valuable as long as they do the shite jobs for shite pay and pay no taxes? Kinda like 'hey they'll work for $10/day so yeah, let's keep em.....my pool needs cleaning!'

What a great idea to create a legal subclass of illegal second class non-citizens!

gimme a break! The 'economic benefit' is the result of illegal, and cruel behavior. We're exploiting people cos they are cheap. So you're saying you want them to stay here ILLEGALLY and work ILLEGALLY because no one else will do the ####### jobs for no pay, but they're not 'special' enough to be granted the priviledge of citizenship?

Do you wear a cup when you ride the fence like this?

Oh, in case it's not clear...no, they shouldn't be granted citizenship, and NO they shouldn't be working here. Ship em back to whichever country from whence they came.

They should not stay here, but we should not 'economically benefit' from fraudulent workers either.

Look...the US is built on a LONG line of second-class citizens. It is much of the reason that most Americans came here in the first place. Irish, Chinese, German, African...all exploited. Of course illegals shouldn't be granted citizenship. That right should be reserved for legals only. But if someone finds an opportunity to make a buck doing hard work in the US then, by all means, go for it! But honestly, who will clean my pool and pick up my trash. Most Americans (including me) turn their nose up at that kind of work. I appreciate someone who is willing to do it and will pay them for it. However, if we get rid of the illegals just who will fill that economic vacuum? I assure you it will not be Americans.

Joel

But the bottom line is, lookit what's happening...illegals are lobbying for citizenship. Why do you think that is? Because they are tired of shite pay and shite jobs. Those jobs are only being worked out of necessity & the second anything is done to grant citizenship & legalize countless illegals....you see how quick you can get them for cleaning your pool.

once they are granted citizenship, they will cease to be 'valuable' in the sense in which I think you view them...I think what most ppl 'appreciate' about illegals' work ethics is their willingness to accept ridiculous pay...it doesn't boil down to breaking the law, or the fact that rightfully an American should have that job...it boils down to people putting money over principles.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

This country was created illegally. I say we all get deported... if legality is the prevailing condition of rightfully living here.

Uuuummmmm.... can't undo the past, but we can fix the present. That statement is such a waste of bandwidth. Honestly, think of it this way, you were married once, you have two kids together, it didnt work out... do you go back in time and unmake all of that to erase the emotional/monetary pain and dmg that was done? Of course you wouldn't, you love your children very much. You work with the present situation, not try to erase the past.

And neither should we forget the past.

[Elphie 0]

We put our blood, sweat, tears, and money...into doing it the right way.

A tad melodramatic, doncha think?

I don't recall bleeding, sweating or crying into the process.

I do recall paying application fees though.

you didn't get the form that had to be filled out in blood while in a sweatbox filled full of cut onions?

I knew it was how I felt but I was curious as to what other people thought about it. I was especially curious as what kind of answers I would get from you all about it. I personally feel it is unacceptable because of all the time, work, emotions, etc. that you put into going about it legally only to be denied b/c some page was out of order or whatever reason they give you, if they give you a reason at all. And then you hear this information about possibly giving the illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. When I heard about it I couldnt believe it. I thought okay...so our govt. is going to reward these people who came into our country illegally with a way to become a citizen & yet there are all these people from around the country trying to get their fiances, spouses, relatives here in this country legally and they are denied. It kind of left me astounded a bit. Then I had this persuasive essay I had to write for school so I thought hey...this will make a great subject... I wonder what people are thinking about it.

[Elphie 0]

We put our blood, sweat, tears, and money...into doing it the right way.

A tad melodramatic, doncha think?

I don't recall bleeding, sweating or crying into the process.

I do recall paying application fees though.

you didn't get the form that had to be filled out in blood while in a sweatbox filled full of cut onions?

People who knowingly entered the US illegally should have no chance at immigration to this country. People who entered legally but then remained illegally, well some of them didn't realize and that is a different story.

Ignorance of the law is not supposed to be an excuse.

Okay you make an interesting point Fuzzness, however, what about someone who entered illegally, had a child here and is forced to go back to their country while leaving the child here b/c the child is a citizen?

[homesick_american 1]

I am writing an essay for a class of mine and the subject matter is -Giving A Path Of Citizenship To Illegal Immigrants-. I am curious what people's opinions are on this subject. Do you feel it would be unfair to reward illegal behavior while there are so many people going about this process legally and get denied or how do you feel? Any responses would be appreciated. Thanks

I'm split on this.

On the one hand, illegal immigration is a massive problem in the United States and it actually drags down wages for our own native unskilled workers. It isn't fair to the immigrants who wait their turn and do everything legally for these people to jump the fence and then jump the queue. I also think it's not proper to reward illegal behavior with US residency and/or citizenship. The people who jump the fence need to understand that the United States does not OWE them residency, does not OWE them citizenship. We don't owe them a damn thing.

On the other hand, I know it is extremely difficult if not impossible for certain people from certain countries to obtain immigrant visas to the United States. Countries like Mexico and the Philippines are especially hard-hit by quota waiting times because there are so many visa applicants from those countries. Even if you have a claim to family-based immigration, you could wait as long as 20 years. If you don't have a claim to family-based immigration and you don't qualify for any other visa, I can understand the temptation to throw caution to the wind and jump the fence. If you get caught, all you get is deported. I'd guess getting caught is pretty low-risk with potentially massive rewards.

I think that illegal immigration is a national security issue, and I support defending our borders with Canada and Mexico. I support border fences. I support tightening visa restrictions. I support doing away with the VWP for some countries, since overstays are huge contributors to illegal immigration and people from certain countries are much more likely to overstay than others. The VWP is a privilege and if it is abused, it should be taken away. At the end of the day it's OUR country and we need to be concerned about who is sneaking in. It has been shown that men of middle eastern extraction are learning Spanish and blending in with Latin American illegals on the southern border. That's scary to me. However, the problem also isn't going to go away, especially since Mexico uses the United States as a release valve for its own poverty problems and accuses us of racism if we want to keep illegal immigrants out. They're wrong, but the illegals are going to keep coming and keep coming and keep coming anyway.

With that in mind, maybe a guest worker problem is the answer. However, that won't do a thing to help US citizens who are unable to find manual work because it's all been taken by illegals. So really...I don't know. Anything you do is going to hurt one group or reward an undeserving group.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I am writing an essay for a class of mine and the subject matter is -Giving A Path Of Citizenship To Illegal Immigrants-. I am curious what people's opinions are on this subject. Do you feel it would be unfair to reward illegal behavior while there are so many people going about this process legally and get denied or how do you feel? Any responses would be appreciated. Thanks

I'm split on this.

On the one hand, illegal immigration is a massive problem in the United States and it actually drags down wages for our own native unskilled workers. It isn't fair to the immigrants who wait their turn and do everything legally for these people to jump the fence and then jump the queue. I also think it's not proper to reward illegal behavior with US residency and/or citizenship. The people who jump the fence need to understand that the United States does not OWE them residency, does not OWE them citizenship. We don't owe them a damn thing.

On the other hand, I know it is extremely difficult if not impossible for certain people from certain countries to obtain immigrant visas to the United States. Countries like Mexico and the Philippines are especially hard-hit by quota waiting times because there are so many visa applicants from those countries. Even if you have a claim to family-based immigration, you could wait as long as 20 years. If you don't have a claim to family-based immigration and you don't qualify for any other visa, I can understand the temptation to throw caution to the wind and jump the fence. If you get caught, all you get is deported. I'd guess getting caught is pretty low-risk with potentially massive rewards.

I think that illegal immigration is a national security issue, and I support defending our borders with Canada and Mexico. I support border fences. I support tightening visa restrictions. I support doing away with the VWP for some countries, since overstays are huge contributors to illegal immigration and people from certain countries are much more likely to overstay than others. The VWP is a privilege and if it is abused, it should be taken away. At the end of the day it's OUR country and we need to be concerned about who is sneaking in. It has been shown that men of middle eastern extraction are learning Spanish and blending in with Latin American illegals on the southern border. That's scary to me. However, the problem also isn't going to go away, especially since Mexico uses the United States as a release valve for its own poverty problems and accuses us of racism if we want to keep illegal immigrants out. They're wrong, but the illegals are going to keep coming and keep coming and keep coming anyway.

With that in mind, maybe a guest worker problem is the answer. However, that won't do a thing to help US citizens who are unable to find manual work because it's all been taken by illegals. So really...I don't know. Anything you do is going to hurt one group or reward an undeserving group.

Everybody keeps chasing their own tail on this issue instead of looking at the real reasons we have 11 million illegal immigrants in this country. Somebody here, please break out of this "here's my take on it" and actually follow the facts. Until you do that, it's just a silly little circle jerk of opinions on how people 'feel' about illegal immigration.

[homesick_american 1]

Everybody keeps chasing their own tail on this issue instead of looking at the real reasons we have 11 million illegal immigrants in this country. Somebody here, please break out of this "here's my take on it" and actually follow the facts. Until you do that, it's just a silly little circle jerk of opinions on how people 'feel' about illegal immigration.

Opinions were solicited. I shared mine. I'm not interested in debating this issue.

Have a nice day.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Somebody here, please break out of this "here's my take on it" and actually follow the facts. Until you do that, it's just a silly little circle jerk of opinions on how people 'feel' about illegal immigration.

Did you happen to read the title of this thread?

"I'm just curious how people feel about this"

So, what's your beef with people sharing how they feel about it?