How do students provide ties to their country?

[Little_My 464]

Okay. I wasn't going to continue this conversation to avoid highjacking this thread for a pointless dialogue in which you and I are not going to agree or come to any kind of a mutual understanding. You seem to think that this country is the treasure trunk at the end of the rainbow for any foreigner, and we all just want to come and stay here because it is so utterly great and wonderful here. This is not always the case. I am paying my **s off for health insurance here - could get it for free in my home country. I am paying my **s off for student loans thanks to the astronomical tuition I paid for university here - could have gotten that for free in my country. I am half a world away from my family and friends with whom I am very close, missing weddings, funerals, births of babies and other big events in the lives of my loved ones, because I can't always take time off from work or afford to fly back there when I would like. Did I want or intent to stay here when I first came? No. You obviously do not believe that to be true, and I probably should not let your opinions bug me. However, I take offense to people treating every freaking immigrant in this country as someone who won the lottery by being graciously allowed to stay here as a permanent resident. This country is a train wreck right now - though so is my continent, so can't really judge there - but by no means did I think in my head "Wohoo, score! Greencard here I come!", when my boyfriend proposed to me a few years back. Our life is a logistical mess and will continue to be so, and we will most likely end up splitting it between here and Finland. My future children will eventually become citizens of this country,and I intend to make sure that they have connection and relations to BOTH of their native countries - but my personal tie to this country is the fact that I fell in love with an American. Not America.

After living here for over 2 years I naturally have many close friends and loved ones here too now, whom I would miss terribly if we decided to move out of the US. However, if me and my husband decided to get divorced now, I would without any hesitation return to Finland and give up my residency. America is not my dream come true. My husband is, however - and our decisions are made based on the needs of our marriage. Right now our marriage requires us to be here. When I applied for my student visa, however, I did not intent nor did I want that. As soon as we can, we are returning to Finland, and I am more than happy to give up my residency at that point. Greencard is not my golden ticket to happiness and freedom - it is something that allows me to stay with my husband. That's all. Contrary to what many Americans want to think, this country is not the dreamland for all of us. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate it in any way and I love many things about this country - but I love my home country more.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Little_My

[Boiler 46,107]

You are comparing it with Finland, not say Guatemala.

[Little_My 464]

Well of course - those posts were about my alleged intentions at the time of applying for the F1 student visa. Nowhere did I state that nobody sees America as the promised land - I in fact acknowledged that many do, but no all of us. I was merely trying to point out that not all non-immigrant visa applicants, even those who at the time of applying already have an American boy/girl friend, plan to stay in the US permanently.

[sachinky 465]

I think Noah has a point, though. Your post is a perfect example of why the US Embassies all over the world deny so many tourist/student/other non-immigrant visas every single day. Despite the many ties that you produced as evidence, you still stayed at the end of the day. NONE of those many ties managed to trump a boyfriend/husband. Plus as you pointed out, it is Sweden you had to go back to, not some hell hole third world country.

RE: the topic -- I came to the US on a five year F-1 visa, too. I had very little in terms of ties, one bank account and I guess, being the only child of my parents helped. Honestly, I think I lucked out. We have no family (apart from one cousin in the extended family) in the states, when I came over I didn't know any one. I met my husband junior year of college. He proposed right before graduation and we got married in India. One of the factors that helped in our CR-1 interview was that we hadn't AOSed of the F-1 and I still had many months left on my student visa. The consular officer almost seemed surprised that I had returned to India as soon as my degree was completed.

Edited December 3, 2011 by sachinky

[LizaG 0]

That is interesting Little My, I would leave Sweden in a heartbeat. The only good thing here is the free education..

[Little_My 464]

I think Noah has a point, though. Your post is a perfect example of why the US Embassies all over the world deny so many tourist/student/other non-immigrant visas every single day. Despite the many ties that you produced as evidence, you still stayed at the end of the day. NONE of those many ties managed to trump a boyfriend/husband. Plus as you pointed out, it is Sweden you had to go back to, not some hell hole third world country.

RE: the topic -- I came to the US on a five year F-1 visa, too. I had very little in terms of ties, one bank account and I guess, being the only child of my parents helped. Honestly, I think I lucked out. We have no family (apart from one cousin in the extended family) in the states, when I came over I didn't know any one. I met my husband junior year of college. He proposed right before graduation and we got married in India. One of the factors that helped in our CR-1 interview was that we hadn't AOSed of the F-1 and I still had many months left on my student visa. The consular officer almost seemed surprised that I had returned to India as soon as my degree was completed.

And I do agree with that point. There are definitely legitimate reasons for US embassies and immigration officials to be suspicious, and I am well aware of the unfortunate fact that thousands and thousands of non-immigrant visa applicants do plan to immigrate and try to circumvent the system. Like I said in my first post, I don't really think there is any single one "tie" to one's home country or reason that would force someone to return after their studies are finished - or at least I can't think of one. I think it is perfectly fine for Embassies to scrutinize applicants and be suspicious of their intentions, even though that means that intending international students who are legitimately only planning to come here for their studies, not to immigrate, get denied.

I think this issue is bit of a button pusher for me. I do love this country in many ways, and I am happy I have been given the possibility to remain here as a permanent resident with my husband. Maybe I am too sensitive when it comes to this topic, but I tend to get offended when it is implied that my plan was to circumvent the immigration system and the F1 visa all along and just remain here permanently - because it wasn't, actually quite the opposite.

In any case - I do agree with Noah, and you, and several others in that proving ties is extremely hard, and there is nothing one can say or a letter or piece of paper they can produce that would show uncontested ties to one's home country or a reason they would absolutely have to return. I think the only thing an F1 applicant can do is produce whatever they can, be honest about their situation and their plans, and hope for the best. F1 visa should NOT be used as a path to permanent residency - but I do believe there are situations where people who came as F1 entrees with no preconceived intention of remaining here permanently end up staying, for whatever reason. AOS from a non-immigrant visa is a legitimate route to permanent residency - whether or not it should be is a whole other debate.

[Noah Lot 391]

The issue is one in which an applicant applies for a B2 or F1, and admits that he/she has an American SO and claims that they have no intention of remaining in the US....that particular demographic has a very poor track record of doing what they said, no matter what the circumstances.

All those things you produced turned out to be nothing more than the by product of fallen lumber.

And if you had been denied, imagine how annoyed, confused or whatever you probably would have been. You might asked..'gee what else could have have brought to the interview?' -- and the answer is...nothing.

My main point is that your case illustrates the challenges that our consular officials have when adjudicating visas...who do they believe and why?

and why documents, letters from friends, future employers, bank accounts, property deeds,etc, do not prove with any certainty that an individual will return as claimed...when they admit to having an American BF/GF/SO or 'family friend.'

Do I think you are some sort of fraudster? No. But you seemed to take great pride in rattling off all that stuff you brought to your interview, while simultaneously revealing to all that those things mattered not a bit. I have little doubt that our consular officials are becoming more and more aware of the virtual zero chance any applicant with aforementioned American connection will be departing the US to live and work before the sun burns out. And so, when future applicants get denied, well, they should really blame those who have 'changed their mind' rather than some mean evil consular person.

Imagine you were a consular official, who had first hand knowledge that of the last 500 student applicants who admitted to having said American BF/GF/Family Friend, 1 had returned to their country after studying. Who would you believe next? And more importantly, why?

Personally, (admittedly, for what it's worth, which is very little!) I think we should craft new policies on the following:

First - END ALL adjustment/changes of status from non immigrant visas to something else, except from the fiancee (K1) - since that is really the only visa designed for this purpose. No changes from B2->F1 or GC...ever...under any circumstance. Arrive as a tourist, leave as one. Arrive as a student, leave as one.

Second - Force all foreign students to return to their country for two years...period...without exception, whether to a Western European panacea or a third world disaster....you must give YOUR country some benefit of your studies abroad.

These two policy changes would cost the American taxpayer nary a farthing, and put an end to all mind changing. It might also motivate our consular officials to be a bit more generous doling out tourist and student visas, if there were zero possibility that it could be used for some other purpose.

Anyway, I guess we have beat this topic to death...in closing, I appreciate your honest and up front statements about the current state of affairs in America...I wish I could debate from another viewpoint, but I cannot. Our country needs a swift kick in the behind and a course correction...soon.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Noah Lot

[Little_My 464]

I agree and disagree with many things you've pointed out - but that is the richness of these types of forums. And I do fully agree with your point about the challenges for consular officials in deciding whether or not to approve a student visa application in situations where they have legitimate reasons to doubt the applicant will in fact return, even if they have produced evidence of reasons why they in theory should. I don't know what the answer would be to fixing that - outside of the options you laid out in your post, with which I don't fully agree with for several reasons - but I do see where you are coming from with those suggestions.

I wasn't trying to convey any type of "pride" of my evidence for the F1 application, it was mainly meant to offer suggestions to the OP as to what she might want to produce. I had done enough reading and consulting with my university's international advisers prior to my interview to know that there was a great chance of me being denied because of my relationship to an American man - and had that happened, I probably would have been upset, though I doubt it would have been directed at the embassy people. Immigration is a tough topic in any country - my own is struggling with this issue too, though of course not in the magnitude as the US. Had I not been issued the F1, I really don't know what would have been our next step. I know it would not have been marriage at that point, maybe my partner would have stayed in Finland, maybe we would have continued long distance, maybe we would have called it quits.. who knows.

In any case, it is most definitely a tough and interesting topic to discuss and debate, and I am always opened to hearing out other people's point of views on these issues, especially those who differ from my own. It's easy to discuss with people one agrees with - listening to those you don't agree with is a much harder, and also much more valuable skills. This is a good place to practice that

[Soapz 14]

As an answer to Noah's post let me post a letter I wrote some time ago to the White House:

Dear Mr. President,

seeing the renewed discussion about the US immigration laws, I would like to point out that not only illegal aliens are having issues with the system in place, also legal aliens are subjected to a treatment that is beyond the acceptable.

I would like to describe my situation to give you and your advisors another real-life sample of the problems people that are coming to and/or staying in this country are dealing with.

In March 2006 I came to the US to stay for a few month with my parents (both green-card holders at the time) to help them deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. I would have come earlier but it took a few month to coordinate an extended leave with my employer. My brother (US-citizen) could not help with any of the issues because our relation is considered immediate but in regards of obtaining a visa he is „fourth preference“.

While staying in the US it became clear that my parents would need more help than my brother could provide by himself and thanks to the cooperation of my employer, I decided to enroll at the local college to be able to assist my parents for a while longer and get another degree. We checked with a lawyer to find out what we need to do in order for me to stay in the US for an extended amount of time.

In June 2006 I had to fly back to Germany because there is no law or regulation that allows a visitor to adjust status while within the US, even though he/she is a family member of a US-citizen. It took me and my family 6 months to get all the paperwork set up, get through the background check and finally obtain a student visa (F1 category) for me in order to return to the US.

Finally on March 3rd, 2007 I returned on a flight to the US and because of a typo in the college papers was treated like a criminal at the Atlanta Airport without being told what the problem was. The Homeland Security Officers there refused to call anyone for clarification or at least let me make a phone call. Also, I was not allowed to speak on my behalf and kept in a room with another person who had a forged passport. The only door of this room could not be opened from the inside, it had to be unlocked by a guard which made my stay in this room literal imprisonment. To be subjected to a treatment like this, as well as being prohibited from speaking can’t be constitutional in any civilized country and specifically in the US:

„The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution reads, in part, "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law ..."

Thanks to my foresight about having my paperwork in perfect order and carrying several evaluation letters (which were not required), I was released after two hours without explanation, barely making my connecting flight. I do not hold any of the officers involved responsible, knowing that they only did their job, but I think there should be better ways of dealing with a situation like this.

In June 2009 my parents became US-citizens and asked me to stay here permanently. Due to their progressing age I considered this option. We contacted an immigration specialist to help us with the necessary procedure to obtain a permanent resident card which would allow me to stay with them even if the situation would not allow me to continue my studies. We were told that the waiting time for an adjustment of status will be several years because of the backlog in the „first preference“ category. I think these kind of waiting times for someone who has strong family-ties to the US are insane. I don’t have a problem with those waiting times because my degree will take that long, but if during this time anything happens to my parents I wouldn’t even be able to hire someone for their business – because this would be considered work.

USCIS is employing thousands of people to work on applications that are so old that nobody really knows if those applicants are still considering coming to the US, but they hold up every new application in the process, creating a backlog that grows every day.

During my stay I met a wonderful man who became my partner. We got married in July of 2009 and we would have been able to apply for a permanent resident card for me immediately – which we didn’t so far. I still have reservations about the whole issue because after extensive research and conversations with other couples where one spouse was foreign, my husband and me were told that we will have to go for an interview to prove that we have a so-called bona-fide marriage. Everyone we talked to agreed that once again, we will be subjected to derogatory treatment because the USCIS officers will assume that our marriage is not bona-fide and we will have to prove that it is. Whatever happened to "...innocent until proven guilty..."?

Due to my personal situation (husband, parents and brother are US-citizens) I have no need or intent to obtain permanent residency by fraudulent behavior. My masters degree will take me another three years and the only two reasons to even consider applying for a green-card are the offers I received to become a teaching assistant (also for research in the history department because I’m bilingual) for minimum pay at the University I plan to transfer to and to legally act in business matters for my parents if necessary. At this point I'm unsure if anyone would give me problems if I were to act on my husband's behalf, so I can't say anything about such a situation. Also, I currently think about publishing a historical journal which I will probably have to do outside of this country just to make sure nothing I do is considered illegal „work“ in the US, which means the US economy will not benefit as I will have to look for an acknowledged historian in the country where I will publish for authentication and therefore none of my American professors will have the chance to add another publication to their resume.

Also, I would like to mention that as a German citizen, I am coming from a country that according to the US Department of State that has strong ties to the US:

„As two of the world's leading trading nations, the United States and Germany share a common, deep-seated commitment to an open and expanding world economy. Personal ties between the United States and Germany extend beyond immigration to include intensive foreign exchange programs, booming tourism in both directions, and the presence in Germany of large numbers of American military personnel and their dependents.“ (Quote from: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3997.htm)

In contrast: If an American citizen comes to Germany he can stay 3 months and within those three months apply for residence and work-permits without any problems. The German government does not subject US-citizens to the same kind of treatment we receive here. The German government does not automatically assume that any US-citizen applying for residency does so by fraudulent means. This makes the behavior of the USCIS regarding German applicants derogatory and degrading.

In conclusion, I have to assume that the US does not really want foreigners here, no matter what kind of family ties they have and so far nothing has happened to change my feelings about the issue. I’m a bilingual historian and I am working on a degree that would allow me to teach here in the US as well as in Germany. I strongly believe that whatever student I would teach in the future would highly benefit from a teacher like me who has spent most of her adult life on another continent because I am able to compare the benefits and disadvantages of both continents. The US is a great nation and I wish I would be able to bring my knowledge and life-experience to its younger generation, but at this point I don’t see the benefits of exposing myself and my family to the unnecessary hardships of the „green-card“- process.

I would really like to hear from you, Mr. President, why this country and therefore its government subjects me and others to such behavior. I have been an upstanding German citizen all my life; I have no criminal record, my reputation is flawless and I have outstanding credentials from my former employers. I have never done anything that justifies this kind of attitude towards me or mine.

Best regards,

XX

The whole Immigration system needs an overhaul, you are right. It will not benefit anyone though, if America tries to quit global networking but pretending they the country can sustain itself without the rest of the world. And for whatever it is worth, even though I'm applying for my green-card, I will not - under any circumstances - give up my citizenship nor my identity and I do hope that staying here for an unknown amount of years will not turn me into a judgmental hypocrite.

[Boiler 46,107]

You could have added a comparison with the German Immigration system, as an example.

[Noah Lot 391]

As an answer to Noah's post let me post a letter I wrote some time ago to the White House:

Dear Mr. President,

seeing the renewed discussion about the US immigration laws, I would like to point out that not only illegal aliens are having issues with the system in place, also legal aliens are subjected to a treatment that is beyond the acceptable.

I would like to describe my situation to give you and your advisors another real-life sample of the problems people that are coming to and/or staying in this country are dealing with.

In March 2006 I came to the US to stay for a few month with my parents (both green-card holders at the time) to help them deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. I would have come earlier but it took a few month to coordinate an extended leave with my employer. My brother (US-citizen) could not help with any of the issues because our relation is considered immediate but in regards of obtaining a visa he is „fourth preference“.

While staying in the US it became clear that my parents would need more help than my brother could provide by himself and thanks to the cooperation of my employer, I decided to enroll at the local college to be able to assist my parents for a while longer and get another degree. We checked with a lawyer to find out what we need to do in order for me to stay in the US for an extended amount of time.

In June 2006 I had to fly back to Germany because there is no law or regulation that allows a visitor to adjust status while within the US, even though he/she is a family member of a US-citizen. It took me and my family 6 months to get all the paperwork set up, get through the background check and finally obtain a student visa (F1 category) for me in order to return to the US.

Finally on March 3rd, 2007 I returned on a flight to the US and because of a typo in the college papers was treated like a criminal at the Atlanta Airport without being told what the problem was. The Homeland Security Officers there refused to call anyone for clarification or at least let me make a phone call. Also, I was not allowed to speak on my behalf and kept in a room with another person who had a forged passport. The only door of this room could not be opened from the inside, it had to be unlocked by a guard which made my stay in this room literal imprisonment. To be subjected to a treatment like this, as well as being prohibited from speaking can’t be constitutional in any civilized country and specifically in the US:

„The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution reads, in part, "No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law ..."

Thanks to my foresight about having my paperwork in perfect order and carrying several evaluation letters (which were not required), I was released after two hours without explanation, barely making my connecting flight. I do not hold any of the officers involved responsible, knowing that they only did their job, but I think there should be better ways of dealing with a situation like this.

In June 2009 my parents became US-citizens and asked me to stay here permanently. Due to their progressing age I considered this option. We contacted an immigration specialist to help us with the necessary procedure to obtain a permanent resident card which would allow me to stay with them even if the situation would not allow me to continue my studies. We were told that the waiting time for an adjustment of status will be several years because of the backlog in the „first preference“ category. I think these kind of waiting times for someone who has strong family-ties to the US are insane. I don’t have a problem with those waiting times because my degree will take that long, but if during this time anything happens to my parents I wouldn’t even be able to hire someone for their business – because this would be considered work.

USCIS is employing thousands of people to work on applications that are so old that nobody really knows if those applicants are still considering coming to the US, but they hold up every new application in the process, creating a backlog that grows every day.

During my stay I met a wonderful man who became my partner. We got married in July of 2009 and we would have been able to apply for a permanent resident card for me immediately – which we didn’t so far. I still have reservations about the whole issue because after extensive research and conversations with other couples where one spouse was foreign, my husband and me were told that we will have to go for an interview to prove that we have a so-called bona-fide marriage. Everyone we talked to agreed that once again, we will be subjected to derogatory treatment because the USCIS officers will assume that our marriage is not bona-fide and we will have to prove that it is. Whatever happened to "...innocent until proven guilty..."?

Due to my personal situation (husband, parents and brother are US-citizens) I have no need or intent to obtain permanent residency by fraudulent behavior. My masters degree will take me another three years and the only two reasons to even consider applying for a green-card are the offers I received to become a teaching assistant (also for research in the history department because I’m bilingual) for minimum pay at the University I plan to transfer to and to legally act in business matters for my parents if necessary. At this point I'm unsure if anyone would give me problems if I were to act on my husband's behalf, so I can't say anything about such a situation. Also, I currently think about publishing a historical journal which I will probably have to do outside of this country just to make sure nothing I do is considered illegal „work“ in the US, which means the US economy will not benefit as I will have to look for an acknowledged historian in the country where I will publish for authentication and therefore none of my American professors will have the chance to add another publication to their resume.

Also, I would like to mention that as a German citizen, I am coming from a country that according to the US Department of State that has strong ties to the US:

„As two of the world's leading trading nations, the United States and Germany share a common, deep-seated commitment to an open and expanding world economy. Personal ties between the United States and Germany extend beyond immigration to include intensive foreign exchange programs, booming tourism in both directions, and the presence in Germany of large numbers of American military personnel and their dependents.“ (Quote from: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3997.htm)

In contrast: If an American citizen comes to Germany he can stay 3 months and within those three months apply for residence and work-permits without any problems. The German government does not subject US-citizens to the same kind of treatment we receive here. The German government does not automatically assume that any US-citizen applying for residency does so by fraudulent means. This makes the behavior of the USCIS regarding German applicants derogatory and degrading.

In conclusion, I have to assume that the US does not really want foreigners here, no matter what kind of family ties they have and so far nothing has happened to change my feelings about the issue. I’m a bilingual historian and I am working on a degree that would allow me to teach here in the US as well as in Germany. I strongly believe that whatever student I would teach in the future would highly benefit from a teacher like me who has spent most of her adult life on another continent because I am able to compare the benefits and disadvantages of both continents. The US is a great nation and I wish I would be able to bring my knowledge and life-experience to its younger generation, but at this point I don’t see the benefits of exposing myself and my family to the unnecessary hardships of the „green-card“- process.

I would really like to hear from you, Mr. President, why this country and therefore its government subjects me and others to such behavior. I have been an upstanding German citizen all my life; I have no criminal record, my reputation is flawless and I have outstanding credentials from my former employers. I have never done anything that justifies this kind of attitude towards me or mine.

Best regards,

XX

The whole Immigration system needs an overhaul, you are right. It will not benefit anyone though, if America tries to quit global networking but pretending they the country can sustain itself without the rest of the world. And for whatever it is worth, even though I'm applying for my green-card, I will not - under any circumstances - give up my citizenship nor my identity and I do hope that staying here for an unknown amount of years will not turn me into a judgmental hypocrite.

Because on that one trip in which you lambaste our border officials you had no yet been admitted to MY country, our Constitution did not apply to you. We will be sure and roll out the red carpet next time.

[Soapz 14]

My little adventure is beside the point - which I made quite clear. Also, I would like to point out that the constitution - the part that I cited - does apply to 'all persons' not only US Citizens. Further, I did not 'lambaste' any border officials as you call it - I do understand the position they're in and therefore appreciate them doing their job - which they did. And yeah, I'll take that red carpet...

[Boiler 46,107]

In March 2006 I came to the US to stay for a few month with my parents (both green-card holders at the time) to help them deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

So you entered on the VWP for 90 days/ I guess I do not understand why you needed so long and needed to stay even longer.

[Noah Lot 391]

My little adventure is beside the point - which I made quite clear. Also, I would like to point out that the constitution - the part that I cited - does apply to 'all persons' not only US Citizens. Further, I did not 'lambaste' any border officials as you call it - I do understand the position they're in and therefore appreciate them doing their job - which they did. And yeah, I'll take that red carpet...

No red carpet for you...and until one has been admitted to the US, the Constitution does not apply... so when Customs Border Protection decides not to admit you or anyone else, there is NO constitutional appeal because technically you are not inside the borders of MY country.

[Soapz 14]

@Boiler: Are you aware of what happened to the Gulf Coast of Mississippi during Katrina? If not, google the pictures. They were still trying to deal with the aftermath 3 to 4 years later. So yeah, getting the Insurance and all other stuff taken care of took time.

@Noah: As I said before - the border check is not the issue nor was it at the time. But seeing that refuse to see that the whole system needs an overhaul because of the above mentioned issues, I think any further discussion is moot at this point.