The Wisdom of Thomas Paine

[Captain Oates 911]

I see Paine (born England) was ostracized in the US because he ridiculed Christianity and only 6 people turned up for his funeral though he was a founding father and much admired by George Washington

Things don't change much here in the USA

He was a member of the French National Convention set up after the French revolution.

Imagine an Argentinian born person who was a troublemaker and part of a Mexican revolution, and who didn't speak English, being elected to the US Congress..

[Captain Oates 911]

Reminds me of something George Carlin once said.

Why, why, why, why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't wanna ** in the first place? Boy, these conservatives are really something, aren't they? They're all in favor of the unborn. They will do anything for the unborn. But once you're born, you're on your own. Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're fcuked. Conservatives don't give a sh!t about you until you reach 'military age'. Then they think you are just fine. Just what they've been looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life... pro-life...

spot on !

Rudyard Kipling

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,

The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."

The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";

But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,

But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";

But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,

O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;

An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"

But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",

But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,

There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"

But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ashud Cocoa

[slim 1,525]

What part of it's MUCH cheaper to have universal coverage do you not understand?

The much cheaper part. Where are those numbers coming from?

You can google a list of government agencies in the US and not a single one of them is more efficient than private businesses. Are you actually telling me that the government will save us money?

...and yet on the battlefield, every soldier is expected to risk his life to save his wounded comrades - people who were shot through no fault of their own

On the battlefield, every soldier is pulling his own weight (in theory, anyway) and that's why there's no problem saving them. Around here, we have a lot of folks doing nothing but pulling us down. I'd much rather see those "people" (I use that term loosely. They're more like parasites that just happen to be human.) take care of themselves and pull their own weight before I start risking my neck to save them.

Soldiers share a common mission. Here, the only thing we share is a common master.

[Danno 1,228]

Here is what Thomas Paine had to say about taxes.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained. All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came.

This is putting the matter on a general principle, and perhaps it is best to do so; for if we examine the case minutely it will be found that the accumulation of personal property is, in many instances, the effect of paying too little for the labor that produced it; the consequence of which is that the working hand perishes in old age, and the employer abounds in affluence.

It is, perhaps, impossible to proportion exactly the price of labor to the profits it produces; and it will also be said, as an apology for the injustice, that were a workman to receive an increase of wages daily he would not save it against old age, nor be much better for it in the interim. Make, then, society the treasurer to guard it for him in a common fund; for it is no reason that, because he might not make a good use of it for himself, another should take it.

Seems a little odd that you say "Here is what Thomas Paine had to say about "taxes""....

Yet he never even mentioned the word Taxes.... never mentioned the word Government , what he did talk about was society and civilization.

There are many ways one can make contribution without using the wasteful apparatus of Government.

For instance many colleges, hospitals, poor houses, libraries were the result of donations of time and money from those who did exactly what Paine spoke of.

As to paying reasonable wages, you are right, decent people will pay the workman according to his worth and your conscience.

Again I am unaware of Paine ever calling for Gov't to set price in this regard.

Public shame is a valuable force which prompts people to do what society deems as "right", paying people slave wages earned one a poor reputation in his community.

[Captain Oates 911]

I really dislike the replacement of entitlements with charity

My wife is allowed to stay in my house as an entitlement - and not dependent on my good will

It wasn't always so in our society

I don't want to crawl to some church and beg for charity if I get sick and my insurance wont pay - and that is what the conservatives suggest as their health plan

My red passport means that if I get a disease which will take $400,000 to fix and I am bankrupt with no health insurance, then I am one flight away from being taken into a hospital and cared for and treated with no questions asked

No insurance, no entitlement record, no contribution record, no co-pay, no deductible, no annual limit. no condition limit, and no pre existing condition disqualification - just 100% free - not a cent

I had to learn all of these terms when I came to the US as health care is 100% free as an entitlement in the UK

Of course it costs money, but people there pool their collective fate as nobody knows when half a million of essential care will be needed

The fear in the US and the lack of it in the UK is a huge difference - or at least it would be if Americans knew how close they were to ruin - I am convinced they force themselves not to think about it

You think your insurance will pay ? My brother in law's job is to deny your claim and he is very, very, good at it !

People get $200k bills all the time which the insurance company walks away from

We pool our interests in an army, so pooling our health is at least as essential

Edited December 2, 2011 by Ashud Cocoa

[Danno 1,228]

I really dislike the replacement of entitlements with charity

My wife is allowed to stay in my house as an entitlement - and not dependent on my good will

It wasn't always so in our society

I don't want to crawl to some church and beg for charity if I get sick and my insurance wont pay - and that is what the conservatives suggest as their health plan

My red passport means that if I get a disease which will take $400,000 to fix and I am bankrupt with no health insurance, then I am one flight away from being taken into a hospital and cared for and treated with no questions asked

No insurance, no entitlement record, no contribution record, no co-pay, no deductible, no annual limit. no condition limit, and no pre existing condition disqualification - just 100% free - not a cent

I had to learn all of these terms when I came to the US as health care is 100% free as an entitlement in the UK

Of course it costs money, but people there pool their collective fate as nobody knows when half a million of essential care will be needed

The fear in the US and the lack of it in the UK is a huge difference - or at least it would be if Americans knew how close they were to ruin - I am convinced they force themselves not to think about it

You think your insurance will pay ? My brother in law's job is to deny your claim and he is very, very, good at it !

People get $200k bills all the time which the insurance company walks away from

We pool our interests in an army, so pooling our health is at least as essential

Yeah those churches and other community help programs tend to ask questions, such as- why aren't you working and how can you be broke and drive a new sports car?

No doubt about it, you'd rather have them look at your "need" rather than your eligibility to live off the kindness of others.

IN fact, wouldn't we all like to be "entitled" to free groceries, electric, and cable TV?

It's a sweet life when you're a "taker"..... but eventually the number of takers outgrows the number of givers and alas the party comes to an end.

[Captain Oates 911]

Yeah those churches and other community help programs tend to ask questions, such as- why aren't you working and how can you be broke and drive a new sports car?

No doubt about it, you'd rather have them look at your "need" rather than your eligibility to live off the kindness of others.

IN fact, wouldn't we all like to be "entitled" to free groceries, electric, and cable TV?

It's a sweet life when you're a "taker"..... but eventually the number of takers outgrows the number of givers and alas the party comes to an end.

I think if misfortune ever strikes you, that you will see health as a totally different thing to cable tv bills

My mother had a full hysterectomy at age 92 and then a broken arm the next year and a broken femur the year after. She was looked after by the state from age 74 after a fall and the resultant skull fracture and brain injury.

It did not cost her a penny. A civilized society pools its risks so that this can be addressed

I hope you don't have to eat your words if these serious conditions happen to you. You could have a stroke tonight and lose your house and everything if your insurance company shrugs it off.

You should be living with the fear of that because it is possible

I am getting very disillusioned about how my fellow Americans are, and their callousness to other US citizens, They really don't give a damn about anyone and talk like savages.

I am comforted by the majority of Americans voting for President Obama which is an indication that the majority don't think in this pugnacious and uncaring and frankly vicious way - just the conservatives who are in the minority

[Danno 1,228]

I think if misfortune ever strikes you, that you will see health as a totally different thing to cable tv bills

My mother had a full hysterectomy at age 92 and then a broken arm the next year and a broken femur the year after. She was looked after by the state from age 74 after a fall and the resultant skull fracture and brain injury.

It did not cost her a penny. A civilized society pools its risks so that this can be addressed

I hope you don't have to eat your words if these serious conditions happen to you. You could have a stroke tonight and lose your house and everything if your insurance company shrugs it off.

You should be living with the fear of that because it is possible

I am getting very disillusioned about how my fellow Americans are, and their callousness to other US citizens, They really don't give a damn about anyone and talk like savages.

I am comforted by the majority of Americans voting for President Obama which is an indication that the majority don't think in this pugnacious and uncaring and frankly vicious way - just the conservatives who are in the minority

- A civilized society takes care of it's parents, it doesn't slag them off to the Gov't.

-Catastrophic insurance is fairly reasonable, no need to live under the fear of loosing everything.

-I too have been disappointed in the Brits, they seem virtually helpless without Government telling them what to do and then borrowing from their grandkids to give out "free" stuff.

HInt: There is a reason your country is in rapid decline, not only is the British Empire a thing of the past ..... how much longer are we going to keep calling it the UK, it's certainly not a kingdom any more either.

[Captain Oates 911]

- A civilized society takes care of it's parents, it doesn't slag them off to the Gov't.

-Catastrophic insurance is fairly reasonable, no need to live under the fear of loosing everything.

-I too have been disappointed in the Brits, they seem virtually helpless without Government telling them what to do and then borrowing from their grandkids to give out "free" stuff.

HInt: There is a reason your country is in rapid decline, not only is the British Empire a thing of the past ..... how much longer are we going to keep calling it the UK, it's certainly not a kingdom any more either.

The UK isn't a Kingdom eh ? Try googling what the letters 'UK' stands for. No its not the Utah Klan

As for its decline - had a look at the USA lately ? As in life expectancy, education, crime, numbers of abortion doctors shot, numbers of heads of state assassinated, AIDS infections etc etc and that's without mentioning the National Health System which is 100% free with no insurance or contribution record required. The USA is struggling towards that but it will be another 30 years and meanwhile this savage and nasty and sneering and homicidal ethos of one American to another will continue. It's nothing to be proud of.

Half of the Americans will cheer and applaud when someone mentions an uninsured person dying in the emergency room

Call that be something to be proud of ? It's a horrible way to live and all the rest of the world swept it away long ago..

The UK LED the US to abolish slavery, votes for women, child labor, gay marines etc etc and will lead the US towards universal health care to be proud of. The US always catches up eventually but the UK (Utah Klan) sets the lead.

Thankfully the direction has been liberal ever since 1860 and continues unabated.

The American right has as much future as pedo priests

You must have your head stuck in the Fox new propaganda all day long while listening to Rush with the other cell ear

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I think if misfortune ever strikes you, that you will see health as a totally different thing to cable tv bills

My mother had a full hysterectomy at age 92 and then a broken arm the next year and a broken femur the year after. She was looked after by the state from age 74 after a fall and the resultant skull fracture and brain injury.

It did not cost her a penny. A civilized society pools its risks so that this can be addressed

I hope you don't have to eat your words if these serious conditions happen to you. You could have a stroke tonight and lose your house and everything if your insurance company shrugs it off.

You should be living with the fear of that because it is possible

I am getting very disillusioned about how my fellow Americans are, and their callousness to other US citizens, They really don't give a damn about anyone and talk like savages.

I am comforted by the majority of Americans voting for President Obama which is an indication that the majority don't think in this pugnacious and uncaring and frankly vicious way - just the conservatives who are in the minority

I work in a hospital and see many elderly or infirm patients (e.g. cerebral palsy) who must depend on others to live and they have no one. Whatever family they might have, that family as most American families could never afford to pay for their care. I read somewhere that to care for someone with cerebral palsy, it costs about $40,000 a year, depending on the severity.

Most Right Wingers like Danno have no clue what it's like to have a family member who is that dependent of care. If he's the breadwinner in his immediate and gets lung cancer (God forbid), his family will be destitute, even if he has health insurance. The financial cost is enormous. The red tape and hoops to jump through by the insurance company are mind numbing and emotional toll on the family is devastating. No one can fully prepare for whatever possible health problems should arise for them or their families.

I think you are right though - all it will take is for something unfortunate to happen to Danno or one of his family members and he'll be singing a different tune. It's interesting how life experiences can change ones perspective.

[Captain Oates 911]

I work in a hospital and see many elderly or infirm patients (e.g. cerebral palsy) who must depend on others to live and they have no one. Whatever family they might have, that family as most American families could never afford to pay for their care. I read somewhere that to care for someone with cerebral palsy, it costs about $40,000 a year, depending on the severity.

Most Right Wingers like Danno have no clue what it's like to have a family member who is that dependent of care. If he's the breadwinner in his immediate and gets lung cancer (God forbid), his family will be destitute, even if he has health insurance. The financial cost is enormous. The red tape and hoops to jump through by the insurance company are mind numbing and emotional toll on the family is devastating. No one can fully prepare for whatever possible health problems should arise for them or their families.

I think you are right though - all it will take is for something unfortunate to happen to Danno or one of his family members and he'll be singing a different tune. It's interesting how life experiences can change ones perspective.

Thank god and his little fairies for a word of realism

My wife is 11.5 years younger than me and wants to retire so we can go and live in Florida

At the moment she supplies both our health insurance and its the tops

I reckon we could pay up to 12k pa EACH from here to her retirement - a long way

When I am 65, I would have to pay 7kpa to buy into medicare just for me until she is 62 and I could get in on her record

All the people I worked with in Europe retired at 50 or 55 but here they work until they drop - standing outside walmart dressed up as smoked herrings or something. That is all bad enough, but as you say, if a bad condition did arrive, the costs can be horrendous. A guy at the rifle club had 250k of heart work done and yes there are limits for conditions and lifetime limits etc and of course you lose your job if its bad enough and then what price insurance if it becomes a regular event ?

Imagine being on your own for insurance with no job, two years after 250k worth of heart work

Insurance -? Forget it

Go away and die sucker

My brother in law who's job it is to refuse insurance claims, tells me his stories - basically he is an executioner

I cannot express my thanks enough to the NHS for the fantastic care they gave my mother over twenty years.

None of the care assistants talked to her like an american republican would have done. Superfluous human garbage that we cant afford etc

IF my wife wants to retire soon, we will hav e to live in the UK for a few years until she is nearer to her US retirement age. Either that or risk being wiped out financially and made bankrupt and losing our home and all our life savings. Americans shrug that off but its because they don't know any better and are used to shrugging their shoulders when a friend or family gets wiped out and has to live in a car while they are dying. .

If they had ever been free from fear they would really value that feeling.

My red passport is my lifeline and its worth more than my house or my car or my investments - that's because it can save my life when the local republicans curl their lips and says tough luck, go away and die

What a horrible creed it is. I really don't know how they can be like that.

I need to buy a fertilized egg suit and then they might look after me

[Danno 1,228]

I work in a hospital and see many elderly or infirm patients (e.g. cerebral palsy) who must depend on others to live and they have no one. Whatever family they might have, that family as most American families could never afford to pay for their care. I read somewhere that to care for someone with cerebral palsy, it costs about $40,000 a year, depending on the severity.

Most Right Wingers like Danno have no clue what it's like to have a family member who is that dependent of care. If he's the breadwinner in his immediate and gets lung cancer (God forbid), his family will be destitute, even if he has health insurance. The financial cost is enormous. The red tape and hoops to jump through by the insurance company are mind numbing and emotional toll on the family is devastating. No one can fully prepare for whatever possible health problems should arise for them or their families.

I think you are right though - all it will take is for something unfortunate to happen to Danno or one of his family members and he'll be singing a different tune. It's interesting how life experiences can change ones perspective.

I'm not sure how much value this experience with cancer or whatever would have, a desperate Danno would of course sign up to "get the freebies" ... in a heart beat, in fact I could see myself doing much more extreme things than that if it came down to it but the question is, do we make calm sound decisions about government policy or follow impulses brought on by panic?

To me the bottom line is, no government plan is sustainable without forcing people to do things they don't want and without giving up a lot of freedoms.

I am not cold to peoples medical reality, but pretending that Hospitals kick people on the street is a lie and you know it. The hospital can not take my house and as long as I keep making reasonable payments on my bill there is little they can do to harm me, so why all this fear mongering?

I might consider a national catastrophic plan to cover these costly cases so that others aren't stuck with the bill in the end.

It's a complex situation but one things for certain no matter how bad it looks now, the Government can make it even worse.