Concealed weapons permits cross state lines.

[mawilson 2,133]

If the Second amendment applies to concealed weapons, how about exploding vests? Would you feel safe if everybody could wear an exploding vest any place in the US?

Everybody can.

[Leatherneck 693]

The CCW suicide doesn't count? Thanks to Occupy Vermont, you can't make that claim anymore. But, of course, you and the rest of the CCW will continue to bring up that canard despite it's obvious falsehood.

If you don't like CCW, then fine, why belittle those that would want to avail themselves of a CCW?

There are armed (concealed carrying) off duty law enforcement officers around you when you're in public

and you have no idea who is or who isn't.

But wait, are you one of those folks that feel it's ok for LEO to protect themselves and their family, and the rest of us 'be-damned?'

Edited November 20, 2011 by Kathryn41
to remove personal attack in previously removed quote

[Leatherneck 693]

If the Second amendment applies to concealed weapons, how about exploding vests? Would you feel safe if everybody could wear an exploding vest any place in the US?

Sure it applies, there is nothing complicated about "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." Only politicians and the folks wearing black robes

seem to have a comprehension problem with those simple two words and the whole of twenty-seven word amendment.

"Exploding vest?" Really? That's not a serious question.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Sure it applies, there is nothing complicated about "the right of the people to keep and bear arms." Only politicians and the folks wearing black robes

seem to have a comprehension problem with those simple two words and the whole of twenty-seven word amendment.

Why do you hate the US Constitution and those nine men and women that are empowered to define it?

"Exploding vest?" Really? That's not a serious question.

Why not? If the right to keep and bear arms is absolute, and to be free from encumbrance, where do you draw the bright line?

Edited November 19, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

If you don't like CCW, then fine, why belittle those that would want to avail themselves of a CCW?

Because stupid people with concealed weapons endangers the rest of us. The current tally from May 2007 to the October 2011 of confirmed unlawful killings involving persons with concealed carry permits or who committed an unlawful killing in public with a legal handgun in a state that allows concealed carry without a permit (Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont allow the carrying of concealed handguns without a permit) is 385.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Because stupid people with concealed weapons endangers the rest of us. The current tally from May 2007 to the October 2011 of confirmed unlawful killings involving persons with concealed carry permits or who committed an unlawful killing in public with a legal handgun in a state that allows concealed carry without a permit (Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont allow the carrying of concealed handguns without a permit) is 385.

Apparently the legislatures of 49 states disagree with you. You would think that ONE of them would change their law if they felt they could receive a net gain in the death count.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Why do you hate the US Constitution and those nine men and women that are empowered to define it?

Why not? If the right to keep and bear arms is absolute, and to be free from encumbrance, where do you draw the bright line?

It is not difficult

First of all, concealed carry is not a right. Were it a RIGHT there would be no licenses or permits at all. Even in the 4 states that do not require licenses or permits it is only because their legislatures chose to allow that. In Vermont's case there has never been a law against being armed, in the absence of a law that forbids being armed, it is LEGAL to be armed. So such is by an absence of action by the legislature. It would be a mistake to thiink they do not realize that such is the case. It is no different than a drivers license, hunting license, fishing license. Such things are allowed because the benefit to society outweighs their cost in lives, money whatever.

I could count the number of licensed drivers killed every year and say only "stupid people drive" but that would be, well, STUPID, so I don't say that.

The second amendment exists for one reason only and only when we allow, well, stupid people, to confuse that do we have a problem in the area of definitions. The 2nd amendment exists as a deterrent to a totalitarian government, a way for free people to remain free. People who do not like freedom and the defense of freedom often run out of reason and ask "Why can't we all own a Nuclear Aircraft Carrier?" Indeed. Why can't we all drive Indy cars to work? And why can't we sell porno on the steps of the grade school?

The 2nd amendment has been well defined, ruled on and is settled law. That someone does not understand that is no need for me to argue points which do not exist.

If you wish to study the benefits of concealed carry legislation as opposed to a death count which may or may not have been affected by CCW licenses (if a CCW holder kills his wife in the bedroom what does it have to do with CCW?) then the information is readily available.

If one has simply run out of other arguments...well that would not be my problem and I do not engage in such arguments.

We may as well count how many people were killed by subscribers of TV guide.

Concealed carry is allowed in 49 states and has reduced crime in every state where implemented. NONE of the 49 states has repealed or made more stringent their concealed carry laws since implementation.

38 states currently allow for reciprocity of CCW licenses.

You are WAY on the losing side of that argument.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Apparently the legislatures of 49 states disagree with you. You would think that ONE of them would change their law if they felt they could receive a net gain in the death count.

Why would legislatures want to increase the death count?

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Bart Johnson

Convicted

Date: December 3, 2009

People Killed: 1

Law Enforcement Officers Killed: 1

Circumstances: On December 3, 2009, Bart Johnson shot and killed Pelham, Alabama,

police officer Philip Davis during a routine traffic stop. Officer Davis had stopped

Johnson for speeding. According to videotape from the officer’s patrol car, Davis and

Johnson spoke briefly, and Davis then went to write Johnson a ticket. Upon his return,

Johnson told Davis that his brother was a police officer. Officer Davis replied, “Why

didn’t you tell me that before? Let me have his name and number so I can tell him what

happened.” Then, “unprovoked and without a word, Johnson fired one shot, striking

Davis in the face.” Johnson fled the scene, abandoned his Acura, and attempted to break

into another vehicle. When he was noticed by someone, Johnson displayed his gun and

waved the person away. He was later picked up by his brother and surrendered to

authorities. A local pharmacist, Johnson obtained a concealed weapons permit in 2007

and renewed it in 2008 and 2009. He is charged with capital murder.

UPDATE: On May 12, 2011, Bart Johnson was found guilty of capital murder in the

death of Officer Davis. He was convicted on two counts, one for the murder of an offduty

police officer and one for causing death by shooting into an occupied vehicle. On

June 16, 2011, Johnson was sentenced to death by lethal injection.

Source: “Bart Johnson sentenced to death,” shelbycountyreporter.com, June 16, 2011; “Bart Johnson

guilty, jury recommends death,” www.myfoxal.com, May 12, 2011; “Pharmacist charged in officer’s killing

had permit for weapon,” The Birmingham News, December 8, 2009; “Pelham police officer’s slaying

baffles investigators,” The Birmingham News, December 5, 2009.

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Edward Bell

Convicted

Date: May 12, 2010

People Killed: 1

Circumstances: On May 12, 2010, Geraldine Jackson, a 69-year-old Detroit

grandmother, was unintentionally shot and killed by a stray bullet fired by concealed

handgun permit holder Edward Bell, 65. The bullet—which “slammed through” the wall

of her home—struck her in the chest, killing her as she was preparing dinner for her

granddaughter and a close friend. According to police, Bell was working on a house in

the neighborhood when he was robbed with a fake gun by 19-year-old Antwan Hall and

Bell’s Chevrolet Suburban sport utility vehicle was stolen. As the alleged thief drove

away, Bell fired at him with a .45 handgun, resulting in the SUV crashing into a tree.

Police believe that it was one of these bullets that ended Jackson’s life. Hall was charged

with felony murder. No charges have yet been filed against Bell.

UPDATE: In July 2010, Bell pleaded guilty to a felony charge of firing at a building and

agreed to one year of probation, with the first four months in jail. A manslaughter charge

was dismissed in exchange for testimony and cooperation in prosecuting the carjacking

suspect, Antwan Hall. Calling the deal unjust, Geraldine Jackson’s daughter Coretta

Stoudemire, stated, “I know how everybody’s saying, ‘Poor Mr. Bell this and poor Mr.

Bell that.’ What about my mother? What about our family?”

Source: “Edward Bell to get probation deal in shooting death of grandmother—Slain grandmother’s family

fumes over deal,” Detroit Free Press, July 9, 2010; “Grandmother Killed by Stray Bullet Laid to Rest,”

www.myfoxdetroit.com, May 19, 2010; “Victim of Stray Bullet Remembered,” www.wxyz.com, May 14,

2010; “Charges Likely in Accidental Shooting of Geraldine Jackson,” www.myfoxdetroit.com, May 13,

2010; “Stray bullet kills Detroit woman in her home,” Detroit News, May 13, 2010; “Woman, 69, Killed by

Stray Bullet,” www.clickondetroit.com, May 12, 2010.

Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Jonathan Reyes

Convicted

Date: November 21, 2009

People Killed: 1

Circumstances: On November 21, 2009, Jonathan Reyes’ handgun discharged as he was

attempting to holster it, the bullet fatally injuring Blaine Salutric. Reyes, Salutric, and a

third man were eating pizza in an apartment. Salutric was walking out of the kitchen with

a slice of pizza as Reyes was attempting to holster his .380 pistol. The gun discharged,

the bullet striking Salutric in the lower right abdomen. Salutric was taken to the hospital

and pronounced dead later that night. Reyes had no criminal record and had a concealed

handgun permit. He was charged with criminal homicide.

UPDATE: In May 2010 Reyes pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor charge of involuntary

manslaughter and was sentenced to two to four years in state prison under the terms of the

plea agreement. Reyes testified that he is “very against guns” but said that he began to

carry one to protect himself and his family. He said that he had had a gun pulled on him

12 times, his brother had been shot at twice, and his mother had been “jumped by 30

people.” Reyes told the court that he had obtained a concealed handgun permit because

he was the only one in his family who could do so legally.

Source: “Uniontown man pleads guilty to friend’s slaying, gets four years,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review,

May 4, 2010; Uniontown man charged with homicide in gun accident,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review,

November 23, 2009.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Because stupid people with concealed weapons endangers the rest of us. The current tally from May 2007 to the October 2011 of confirmed unlawful killings involving persons with concealed carry permits or who committed an unlawful killing in public with a legal handgun in a state that allows concealed carry without a permit (Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont allow the carrying of concealed handguns without a permit) is 385.

Welcome to MATH IS FUN!

Ready to work some numbers children?

We have 385 deaths from within a 53 month period. Or 7.2 deaths per month "caused" by CCW holders, 87 deaths per year. (385/53 = 7.2 7.2 x 12 = 87.1)

There are more than 13 million CCW holders PLUS every resident of Arizona, Alaska and Vermont (if you count all the deaths you have to count all the people allowed to carry concealed!) or about 20 million people allowed to carry concealed weapons.

When we divide 87/20,000,000 we come up with a death rate of .0000043. Multiply that by 100,000 (the figure used by the FBI to calculate crime rates) and we get .43 deaths per 100,000. That is about HALF the homicide rate of Vermont and makes CCW holders the safest group of any people in the country. Probably safer than golfers.

If the numbers are a bit confusing to you children, then lets just use 13,000,000 and we come up with .66 deaths per 100,000 people, STILL the lowest "homicide" rate of any deliniated group.

Until next time on "FUN WITH MATH!" Ta-ta.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Why would legislatures want to increase the death count?

Of the three cases you present the need for a CCW is only present in one of them. The other two would not have required anyone to have a CCW in order to have posession of the guns.

If a licensed driver shoots someone in their home we do not say "licensed driver kills person in their home"

Were those two part of the 385 you counted?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Of the three cases you present the need for a CCW is only present in one of them. The other two would not have required anyone to have a CCW in order to have posession of the guns.

If a licensed driver shoots someone in their home we do not say "licensed driver kills person in their home"

Were those two part of the 385 you counted?

And yet, all three were current CCW permit holders at the time they perpetrated unlawful homicides. Evidently, the screening process is inadequate to eliminate such personalities.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Welcome to MATH IS FUN!

Ready to work some numbers children?

We have 385 deaths from within a 53 month period. Or 7.2 deaths per month "caused" by CCW holders, 87 deaths per year. (385/53 = 7.2 7.2 x 12 = 87.1)

There are more than 13 million CCW holders PLUS every resident of Arizona, Alaska and Vermont (if you count all the deaths you have to count all the people allowed to carry concealed!) or about 20 million people allowed to carry concealed weapons.

When we divide 87/20,000,000 we come up with a death rate of .0000043. Multiply that by 100,000 (the figure used by the FBI to calculate crime rates) and we get .43 deaths per 100,000. That is about HALF the homicide rate of Vermont and makes CCW holders the safest group of any people in the country. Probably safer than golfers.

If the numbers are a bit confusing to you children, then lets just use 13,000,000 and we come up with .66 deaths per 100,000 people, STILL the lowest "homicide" rate of any deliniated group.

Until next time on "FUN WITH MATH!" Ta-ta.

Spin it any way you want, it still shows the NRA is spreading falsehoods. Even 1 unnecessary and unlawful killing would enough to prove the gun lobby, like the tobacco lobby, is full of liars.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Hey Kip! Feel that little earthquake up near you?

Maybe not. It was 1000 miles from Anchorage.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0006uw1.php

Edited November 20, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I didn't have to do a back ground check. We don't have a CCW up here. You can pack it anywhere you want. Why is that? Because here in Alaska we respect the rights of Americans. There ain't no stinking California lib commies running the show here and thank god for that.

Hey Kip! Feel that little earthquake up near you?

Maybe not. It was 1000 miles from Anchorage.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0006uw1.php

That's not all that far from us, but I didn't feel it. Right now were having a total white out. Visibility is maybe 10ft. tops with the wind blowing and the snow falling. That and it's about -2 here atm not factoring wind chill.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

And yet, all three were current CCW permit holders at the time they perpetrated unlawful homicides. Evidently, the screening process is inadequate to eliminate such personalities.

Evidentally, yet none were in states that allow ANYONE to have a concealed handgun. How curious. It actually suggests randomness. Who would have guessed?