Concealed weapons permits cross state lines.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The Constitution changes all the time as you well know..and sometimes it changes back again as in prohibition.

Swearing to uphold the constitution means the constitution as it is at the time - and pushing for it to be changed is a valid thing to do and nobody can stop me

The nativists always see the constitution like the ten commandments which never change - that's why people don't like me coveting oxes so I don't do it.

If the right majorities are in place, even making Spanish the official language is quite constitutional and I have the books !

stop being silly.

The Bill of Rights NEVER changes and there is no provision to do so. The 2nd amendment is part of the Bill of Rights. If you want to discuss this matter you have to use arguments which make sense. Otherwise you just look foolish

Edited November 18, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[Leatherneck 693]

Ok, I will accept your more forgiving version of his decision.

I see what you mean in the other point, OK. I misunderstood.

I would not really be in favor of such a law. Open carry has had little if any affect on reducing crime. Many states had/have open carry, long before they had concealed carry. Missouri, Kentucky, Georgia, Wisconsin, just to name a few. No affect on crime (good or bad) Pass concealed carry a crime drops markedly. Why? Because really only a relatively few people carry concealed.

The reason is that it is KNOWN people carry guns, but it is not known WHO is carrying them. THAT is the deterrent, the "force multiplier" that discourages crime. we have 49 states of proof on this.

One of the best was Florida

When they passed their law in 1986 it first applied ONLY to residents of Florida. There was shift in crime from Floridians to tourists. Why? Because tourists drive rented cars with the word "lease" on the license plate. Criminals were waiting for them outside airports, "bumping" ther cars to create a minor accident and then robbing the people when they got out to look at the damage. It was getting crazy! The tourist had money and did NOT have guns. what did Florida do? It took the word "lease" off the license plates to stop identifying tourists AND started issuing concealed carry permits to non-residents VOILA!!!!!!! No more robberies. BUT no tourists shot would be robbers on interstate 75 either! How many tourists do you think had concealed carry permits? 1 in 1000? 1 in 5000?

It is absolutely, without question, proven...concealed carry reduces crime and saves lives, open carry does not. Furthermore, concealed carry is proven to have the greatest benefit for elderly and women as they experience the largest reduction in crime when these laws are passed. Simply because they are the people who become less vulnerable when they carry a gun, it is the "equalizer"

Concealed weapons do not reduce crime by being whisked from under your coat and blasting robbers on main street in front of Ben & Jerrys. You are not going to lose your gun in a struggle to a robber who would otherwise have only taken your money Seriously?

Concealed weapons reduce crime BY being concealed.

Well said Gary!

But you know, to people that have a hard time wrapping their brain around such a simple proven fact, are not people that truly support 2nd Amendment rights.

Sticking to a myth when the hard evidence proves otherwise is disengenuous, at best.

stop being silly.

The Bill of Rights NEVER changes and there is no provision to do so. The 2nd amendment is part of the Bill of Rights. If you want to discuss this matter you have to use arguments which make sense. Otherwise you just look foolish

Thanks, I couldn't have said it better!

[Captain Oates 911]

Are you suggesting that when the Florida law changed, British tourists arrived in Florida and bought guns in the arrivals area before they bought sun tan cream and picked up their rental cars ?

What did they do at the end of the week when they went back ?

Sell them ?

Never heard anything so unbelievable. The only non residents who would buy guns are illegals.

stop being silly.

The Bill of Rights NEVER changes and there is no provision to do so. The 2nd amendment is part of the Bill of Rights. If you want to discuss this matter you have to use arguments which make sense. Otherwise you just look foolish

Never mentioned the bill of rights or the second amendment

I did mention prohibition

Do comprehend correctly otherwise you look foolish

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Yeah, I mean I suppose at the Federal level there should be a restriction on banning loaded firearms in public places. Therefore, a state could ban conceal carry, but allow loaded open carry or visa versa but not ban both.

Thats a different question because it involves other countries.

Many cities and counties also have restrictions. Nevada is about as close to the wild west as you can get, but your right to carry weapons, discharge firearms, or hire a hooker, often ends at the county line, or the city limits. Then there are Federal and State hunting regulations that limit what sort of firearms and what sort of and how many rounds you can carry in certain areas.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Sticking to a myth when the hard evidence proves otherwise is disengenuous, at best.

How ironic!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Many cities and counties also have restrictions. Nevada is about as close to the wild west as you can get, but your right to carry weapons, discharge firearms, or hire a hooker, often ends at the county line, or the city limits. Then there are Federal and State hunting regulations that limit what sort of firearms and what sort of and how many rounds you can carry in certain areas.

Most states, including Nevada have firearm premption laws preventing the cities from restricting firearms carry. The NRA was working on that while you were looking elsewhere and have enacted these in 43 states. Please check the laws before typing. The ordinaces against dischargung a firearm does not in any case apply to self defense. Again, please try to use arguments that are not silly.

[Captain Oates 911]

The English Bill of rights 1689 included the right to bear arms and it is still in force.

In practice, governments national and local can circumnavigate it quite easily as can be see with Illinois and the UK where complying with the requirements cost thousands per year

Washington State said silencers were legal but you couldn't attach it to the gun.

That's how they do it. Look at how the anti abortion states circumvent the constitutional right by regulating the abortion surgeries into the ground with a whole raft of restrictions

Relying on the 2nd amendment is clutching at straws. Example ? The State requiring home security alarms etc which cost $10k. Easy. They don't go through it, they go around it. Constitutionally.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Are you suggesting that when the Florida law changed, British tourists arrived in Florida and bought guns in the arrivals area before they bought sun tan cream and picked up their rental cars ?

What did they do at the end of the week when they went back ?

Sell them ?

Never heard anything so unbelievable. The only non residents who would buy guns are illegals.

Never mentioned the bill of rights or the second amendment

I did mention prohibition

Do comprehend correctly otherwise you look foolish

You mentioned the constitution changing

No British tourists did not buy guns. They did not have to. Concealed firearms carried by others protected them because the change in the law did not identify them as tourist and as NOT being armed. Are you trying to say that Florida did NOT do this? Are you trying to say it did not end the attacks on tourists? Seriously?

It would not be necessary to BUY a gun to be armed in Florida. British tourists can CARRY a concealed firearm in Vermont, they cannot BUY a handgun here. If my British friend comes for a visit, he can get off the plane and I can hand him a gun to put under his shirt as soon as he passes the security checkpoint. Pefectly legal. we have NO requirement for a concealed license for anyone! And any person over age 18 that has no criminal record can carry a concealed handgun

I knew many business people that obtained Florida carry permits and DID carry while in Florida. Later, as many more states enacted concealed carry and Florida had reciprocity, it became passe, they simply carried in Florida with their Tennesee or Indiana license and carried their handgun in checked baggage, you CAN do that you know.

Again please try not to be silly.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Most states, including Nevada have firearm premption laws preventing the cities from restricting firearms carry. The NRA was working on that while you were looking elsewhere and have enacted these in 43 states. Please check the laws before typing. The ordinaces against dischargung a firearm does not in any case apply to self defense. Again, please try to use arguments that are not silly.

How about some cites that show that?

Kristen Rand, legislative director for the Violence Policy Center, a gun-control group, said the movement “has to do with selling more guns.” While it was pushed by groups like the NRA, it also “dovetailed with the gun industry’s desperate need to find a new market.”

“Their efforts at reaching out to minorities and women have failed,” said Rand, whose group advocates banning all handguns and some rifles but believes sporting rifles and shotguns should remain legal. “The industry constantly has to look for a way to make a guy who already owns 15 guns buy a new one.”

Nationwide statistics aren't available

Rand, the spokeswoman for the Violence Policy Center, acknowledged that “we don’t have centralized data-gathering to know what people are doing with these licenses.”

“(But) anecdotally, we know they’re doing quite a bit of harm,” she said.

Her group posts news accounts of concealed-weapons permit holders allegedly involved in firearms deaths on a part of its Web site called “Concealed Carry Killers.” The site says 130 civilians and nine police officers have been killed and 13 mass shootings have been carried out by people with concealed-weapons permits since May 2007. Helmke, of the Brady Campaign, cited the work of Rand’s group in a recent blog post that mocked the NRA for saying concealed weapons permit holders “are all ‘law-abiding’ citizens.’”

But Third Way’s Kessler, while agreeing there is “no evidence” that more concealed-weapons permits have led to lower crime rates, said, “I’ve not seen any evidence on the other side that it creates havoc either.”

Gun-rights activists point to studies they say prove that having more guns in civilian hands, whether being carried by permit holders or not, has reduced crime rates.

“Firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens prevent 1 million robberies, murders and rapes every year,” said John Pierce, a Virginia-based gun-rights activist with opencarry.org. That’s at least partly due to the huge increase in “shall-issue” states, which has been “the most significant beneficial public policy move in my lifetime,” said the 41-year-old Pierce.

But Dr. David Hemenway, Ph.D., a Harvard professor of public health who has studied gun violence for years, said that when it comes to concealed-carry laws, neither side can make a legitimate claim about their effects on crime.

Hemenway said that the most definitive review to date — a 2004 look at research on the topic by the National Research Council — “found no credible evidence that passage of right-to-carry laws increases or decreases violent crime.”

Americans overall are far less likely to be killed with a firearm than they were when it was much more difficult to obtain a concealed-weapons permit, according to statistics collected by the federal Centers for Disease Control. But researchers have not been able to establish a cause-and-effect relationship.

In the 1980s and ’90s, as the concealed-carry movement gained steam, Americans were killed by others with guns at the rate of about 5.66 per 100,000 population. In this decade, the rate has fallen to just over 4.07 per 100,000, a 28 percent drop. The decline follows a fivefold increase in the number of “shall-issue” and unrestricted concealed-carry states from 1986 to 2006.

The highest gun homicide rate is in Washington, D.C., which has had the nation’s strictest gun-control laws for years and bans concealed carry: 20.50 deaths per 100,000 population, five times the general rate. The lowest rate, 1.12, is in Utah, which has such a liberal concealed weapons policy that most American adults can get a permit to carry a gun in Utah without even visiting the state.

The decline in gun homicides also comes as U.S. firearm sales are skyrocketing, according to federal background checks that are required for most gun sales. After holding stable at 8.5 to 9 million checks from 1999 to 2005, the FBI reported a surge to 10 million in 2006, 11 million in 2007, nearly 13 million in 2008 and more than 14 million last year, a 55 percent increase in just four years.

Because the gun death rates parallel an overall drop in crime, Hemenway suspects that the decline “has nothing to do with concealed-carry laws.”

While other researchers point to numerous, complex reasons for fluctuations in the crime rate, Hemenway said the surge that began in the 1980s and the subsequent decline were "all about inner-city gun crime." Crime "declined nationwide after the crack wars died out," Rand agreed.

Hemenway said valid studies of the effects of more concealed weapons permits on firearms deaths could only be obtained by studying shooting deaths that involved concealed-carry permit holders.

But such data is not collected by most law enforcement agencies and not compiled nationally, said Rand of the Violence Policy Center. Her group would like to see nationwide reporting of the number of concealed-weapons permit holders, a “systematic collection of arrest and conviction data” for them as well as hard data on the number of justifiable homicides they’re involved in.

But “the NRA and the gun lobby would never allow that,” Rand charged. “The gun lobby is trying to keep all this data secret. … They know it’s not going to go well for them.”

The NRA’s Arulanandam denied that the organization universally opposes the collection of such data, but said it would not endorse the concept without seeing a specific proposal in writing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34714389/ns/us_news-life/t/record-numbers-licensed-pack-heat/#.TsXEjMOlNQU

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The English Bill of rights 1689 included the right to bear arms and it is still in force.

In practice, governments national and local can circumnavigate it quite easily as can be see with Illinois and the UK where complying with the requirements cost thousands per year

Washington State said silencers were legal but you couldn't attach it to the gun.

That's how they do it. Look at how the anti abortion states circumvent the constitutional right by regulating the abortion surgeries into the ground with a whole raft of restrictions

Relying on the 2nd amendment is clutching at straws. Example ? The State requiring home security alarms etc which cost $10k. Easy. They don't go through it, they go around it. Constitutionally.

This is not England. Silly argument, please stop.

We have the Heller decision, read it if you do not know what the second amendment is, I have not the time to educate you nor the desire because it doesn't matter what you imagine to be the case.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

How about some cites that show that?

How about you show me that states do not have pre emption.

The NRA site has run downs on concealed carry and pre emption laws. Also range protection laws that prevent firing ranges from being closed, hunter harrassment laws that prevent hunters from being disturbed while lawfully hunting (49 state have these)

Not to mention the Federal law which ended the lawsuits against gun manufacturers by the victims of crime.

I am an NRA member so I paid for the site, I suggest you educate yourself before further discussing the topic. You sound foolish.

Google "NRA" read.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

How about you show me that states do not have pre emption.

The NRA site has run downs on concealed carry and pre emption laws. Also range protection laws that prevent firing ranges from being closed, hunter harrassment laws that prevent hunters from being disturbed while lawfully hunting (49 state have these)

Not to mention the Federal law which ended the lawsuits against gun manufacturers by the victims of crime.

I am an NRA member so I paid for the site, I suggest you educate yourself before further discussing the topic. You sound foolish.

Google "NRA" read.

I was an NRA member when you had to get a referral from an NRA member to join. I quit soon after that stopped being the case.

[Captain Oates 911]

You mentioned the constitution changing

No British tourists did not buy guns. They did not have to. Concealed firearms carried by others protected them because the change in the law did not identify them as tourist and as NOT being armed. Are you trying to say that Florida did NOT do this? Are you trying to say it did not end the attacks on tourists? Seriously?

It would not be necessary to BUY a gun to be armed in Florida. British tourists can CARRY a concealed firearm in Vermont, they cannot BUY a handgun here. If my British friend comes for a visit, he can get off the plane and I can hand him a gun to put under his shirt as soon as he passes the security checkpoint. Pefectly legal. we have NO requirement for a concealed license for anyone! And any person over age 18 that has no criminal record can carry a concealed handgun

I knew many business people that obtained Florida carry permits and DID carry while in Florida. Later, as many more states enacted concealed carry and Florida had reciprocity, it became passe, they simply carried in Florida with their Tennesee or Indiana license and carried their handgun in checked baggage, you CAN do that you know.

Again please try not to be silly.

I will do you a deal, if I don't call you silly, would you refrain from calling me silly ?

Argue on the facts without throwing personal stuff like that about because eventually it comes back in spades

Before you make yourself sick laughing at something I did not say, I never argued with you about Florida passing this law and your reading comprehension skills are not sufficient to realize that. You concocted that yourself in error.

I was disbelieving the idea that tourists could buy guns in Florida - or more correctly, that they do buy guns.

So its not necessary to buy a gun but they can carry one ? eh ? where do they get it in Florida, rent a shooter inc ?

They don't all have friends armed to the teeth greeting them in arrivals hall with a 30 round Glock

So stop being a silly billy and stop calling people silly - that would aid the debate

[Captain Oates 911]

How about you show me that states do not have pre emption.

The NRA site has run downs on concealed carry and pre emption laws. Also range protection laws that prevent firing ranges from being closed, hunter harrassment laws that prevent hunters from being disturbed while lawfully hunting (49 state have these)

Not to mention the Federal law which ended the lawsuits against gun manufacturers by the victims of crime.

I am an NRA member so I paid for the site, I suggest you educate yourself before further discussing the topic. You sound foolish.

Google "NRA" read.

So he is foolish and I am silly.

I think you should sit down and have a nice cup of cocoa and stop calling names

You will give yourself a heart attack

Don't be an idiot because calling names is not cool

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

So he is foolish and I am silly.

I think you should sit down and have a nice cup of cocoa and stop calling names

You will give yourself a heart attack

Don't be an idiot because calling names is not cool

Leave him to his idyllic little world of Ben and Jerry, and strange little God fearing commie hobbits living in harmony with the visitors from the Great White North, where he can play James Bond all day carrying his Walther PPK, sipping vodka martinis, playing baccarat, and seducing his...well that would be too personal, wouldn't it?