Concealed weapons permits cross state lines.

[Robert&Karen 264]

I'd rather California either allow or disallow completely. Its already frustrating that someone from one county can carry in my county yet I cannot. That frustration grows further when say a Nebraskan can come here with one, yet i can not carry myself.

You are free to:

A) move to another county that has citizens who agree with your viewpoint;

B) elect a new sheriff who has your concerns addressed;

C) run for office yourself to change the conditions.

My county issues permits a bit easier than others. And if you ever check to see the number of permits held in LA or SF it is strikingly low compared to the number of citizens there. However for the most part this is the WISH of the community. They have voted this way, and the people gather in their enclave with one another, all sharing similar values and ideals.

While I personally disagree with this limitation on out rights, I do enjoy the fact that the country is a unity of individual states, where we can be as different as night and day, and yet we are all under the same federal protection. I can move one state over and buy a machine gun if I wanted, but not here. My desire for automatic weapons is not great enough to make me leave the state, but I have the freedom to do so, on my whim. There are not many countries where you can do that.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Robert&Karen

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Things happen very fast. On the range we shoot at 12 feet or whatever expecting the assailant to come trotting towards us shouting I am going to attack you.

In the real world, a man in a business suite is walking alongside you on a busy street in a nice district at mid-day when he links arms and presses a knife against your ribs. You have zero time to respond.

He will take your wallet and gun and kill you if you go for it

If you are unarmed he will take your wallet - big deal. I have a concealed permit but I don't carry it for protection against people - that is too dangerous.

I would much rather have my wallet stolen than have a dead body at my feet and a cop car pulling up - can you imagine what happens then ? We would much prefer losing our wallet if we could turn the clock back

We must lose the fantasy and think it through in reality and winning a gun fight is still a horrible position to be in compared with having to call and cancel our credit cards

A lot of american men seem obsessed about having their botty interfered with - but the speedofiles are more interested in boy scouts

This is just a fantasy. Every state that has enacted concealed carry has had a reduction in dead bodies. Other than that your imagined fairy tale is very good.

There has been a decrease in crime with no increase in people shooting others in self defense. What I would rather have happen and what DOES happen is the would=be robber, rapist, home invader, carjacker decides not to risk robbing/raping/killing/jacking cars because he does not want to get DEAD whether you get in trouble for killing him or not.

Vermont, for example, is a very safe place and there are NO dead bodies of criminals to trip over. Amazing eh? You mean I am armed, and safe, and yet I do not have to shoot anyone? Who woulda thunk it? When a state enacts concealed carry and crime and murder go DOWN, then your fantasy is exposed for what it is.

Why do people insist on imagining things that do not happen rather than accept what DOES happen when good people are alloed to carry guns. What REALLY happens is much better than what you imagine.

You may as well say "seat belts don't save lives because you might get trapped in a burning car" Yes, true. And for every one that dies belted in a burning car, 30 are saved and never injured at all because they did wear the belt.

This is no longer open for discussion or debate. 49 states have enacted these laws and 49 states have had a reduction in crime follwoing the enactment of these laws. No one needs to guess or surmise what "might" happen.

[Robert&Karen 264]

This is no longer open for discussion or debate. 49 states have enacted these laws and 49 states have had a reduction in crime following the enactment of these laws. No one needs to guess or surmise what "might" happen.

I don't see the debate about HR822. It makes no real sense to have 5 or 6 driver's licenses to get around the country, and I bet learning to drive in Hawaii is very different from learning in Maine. However one driving license covers the country. We only have to be aware that conditions vary across the nation and we ought to be responsible enough to understand the area which we are entering. No difference with the firearm permit.

Except that having a firearm is a right. Driving isn't.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Robert&Karen

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Back to same sex marriage licenses. Are they valid everywhere?

What about a licensed vehicle? I know for a fact that a legal car in one state may not be legal in another. I suppose at best its a mild fine vs a felony...if you compare a hand gun to a car.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Sousuke

[Captain Oates 911]

You are free to:

A) move to another county that has citizens who agree with your viewpoint;

B) elect a new sheriff who has your concerns addressed;

C) run for office yourself to change the conditions.

My county issues permits a bit easier than others. And if you ever check to see the number of permits held in LA or SF it is strikingly low compared to the number of citizens there. However for the most part this is the WISH of the community. They have voted this way, and the people gather in their enclave with one another, all sharing similar values and ideals.

While I personally disagree with this limitation on out rights, I do enjoy the fact that the country is a unity of individual states, where we can be as different as night and day, and yet we are all under the same federal protection. I can move one state over and buy a machine gun if I wanted, but not here. My desire for automatic weapons is not great enough to make me leave the state, but I have the freedom to do so, on my whim. There are not many countries where you can do that.

Afghanistan, Somalia etc

I can see the point of local democracy but it lands us with a whole set of inconvenient decisions.

Live somewhere that allows machine guns but not abortions or no concealed weapons but free libraries.

I think a more unitary set of laws (such as those proposed) which are as liberal (in its true sense) as possible, would allow us the maximum freedom to do all the things we want and not have to restrict ourselves

We only live once, so why restrict ourselves and have to chose the least uncomfortable place to live, rather than putting these considerations to one side and choosing on other criteria

[Captain Oates 911]

Back to same sex marriage licenses. Are they valid everywhere?

What about a licensed vehicle? I know for a fact that a legal car in one state may not be legal in another. I suppose at best its a mild fine vs a felony...if you compare a hand gun to a car.

They have emissions test in Wisconsin, but here I can poison everybody no problem and tires are worn when they pop.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

They have emissions test in Wisconsin, but here I can poison everybody no problem and tires are worn when they pop.

We were driving from one state to another in a friends pickup. At the time Missouri had no law about rear bumpers for pickups. Illinois did. He received a 150 dollar ticket and was told if he wanted to take his car into Illinois again he better get a bumper.

[Robert&Karen 264]

Back to same sex marriage licenses. Are they valid everywhere?

What about a licensed vehicle? I know for a fact that a legal car in one state may not be legal in another. I suppose at best its a mild fine vs a felony...if you compare a hand gun to a car.

This topic is not about same sex marriages.

How would a car legal in one state not be legal in another? There are federal requirements for cars. We used to have "49" cars and "50" cars valid in 49 or 50 states, California being the hardest with polution controls and thus being the odd man out. But if I have a valid state license plate and registration today, I am good in all 50 states.

Afghanistan, Somalia etc

I can see the point of local democracy but it lands us with a whole set of inconvenient decisions.

Live somewhere that allows machine guns but not abortions or no concealed weapons but free libraries.

I think a more unitary set of laws (such as those proposed) which are as liberal (in its true sense) as possible, would allow us the maximum freedom to do all the things we want and not have to restrict ourselves

We only live once, so why restrict ourselves and have to chose the least uncomfortable place to live, rather than putting these considerations to one side and choosing on other criteria

Yes, the country is a quagmire of local laws as well as state laws as well as the way people are, their attitudes regarding crime and friendliness. We have them all. ONE set of laws will demand conformity rather than finding those with who you choose to associate. You live where you want because you feel that you fit in very well. As much as I enjoy several places, I would NEVER insist that you have to enjoy them too. A city may have an 8pm curfew for teenagers, if you agree, move there. If not, move. But please do not make me agree with your version of what you think is right. There is room for everyone.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

This topic is not about same sex marriages.

Its part of the topic once CCW was compared to Marriage licenses about 10 pages ago.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Sousuke

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'd rather California either allow or disallow completely. Its already frustrating that someone from one county can carry in my county yet I cannot. That frustration grows further when say a Nebraskan can come here with one, yet i can not carry myself.

Well you can carry in Vermont.

This is why discretionary is a bad idea. Also do not think that the rich guy in your county is denied a concealed license, even though you are. I am actually surprised they even still exist. Indiana's discretionary law was shot down years ago by a court as discriminatory when it was found that the Sheriff of Lake County (Gary, Ind.) had issued hundreds of permits but NONE to a black person! Oops. How did that happen? The state's discretionary system was scrapped and a non-discretionary law that allowed reciprocity with ALL other states was put in place.

New York has a similar law to California and while people in the Adirondack and western NY state counties get concealed permits easily, those in eastern New York do not.

Alabama has a discretionary law but due to an Attorney Generals opinion ALL counties in Alabama issue to anyone with no criminal record, so it is essentially (in practice) a non-discretionary state.

Massachusetts hardly issues any at all except if your name is Kennedy or Kerry. Connecticut issues to any law abiding citizen. Hawaii does not issue to anyone. New Jersey only if you have the right connections and pay the bribe.

You are right that discretionary laws suck, but that is something you need to change and allowing others to carry guns will help in that process. When it is proven AGAIN that doing so reduces crime. what it amounts to is your county Sheriff telling you that YOU can't handle the freedom, but someone from the next county can.

Something else to keep in mind is that many states often pass these laws with lots of strings and hooks and tricks, such as limits on where guns can be carried, etc. Then later, when they find out that Crusty Old Perv was wrong and it really does reduce crime and criminals are not taking guns from people and killing them with their own guns...they lighten up and reduce restrictions further, even elimnating the licenses altogether as 4 other states have now done. I mean this is so solidly proven one has to be a stone fool to argue against it. Florida passed the law with a lotr of restrictions and for residents only. Then did away with the restrictions, then allowed non residents to get permits.

South Carolina passed the law with some trepidation, then made it easier to get the permit and are now publicly encouraging ALL women to get a license! Why not just go to Vermont style laws? I think they will be one of the three states in the next two years that do, Iowa and Montana the other two that will. Iowa ALMOST did when they changed from discretionary to non-discretionary in 2010. It failed by one vote.

[Robert&Karen 264]

Its part of the topic once CCW was compared to Marriage licenses about 10 pages ago.

To get a CCW you need to meet a set of requirements, arbitrary or not, established by the county in which you are applying. Your county requirements may differ from mine.

Same with marriage licenses.

Not all states will recognize the issued CCW.

Same with marriage licenses.

So what's the problem?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

This topic is not about same sex marriages.

And actually both seem closely related. More and More states are issuing both, eventually all states I guess will allow both.

To get a CCW you need to meet a set of requirements, arbitrary or not, established by the county in which you are applying. Your county requirements may differ from mine.

Same with marriage licenses.

Not all states will recognize the issued CCW.

Same with marriage licenses.

So what's the problem?

Well thats the topic isn't it? That all states are to be forced to recognize CCW from other states.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Back to same sex marriage licenses. Are they valid everywhere?

What about a licensed vehicle? I know for a fact that a legal car in one state may not be legal in another. I suppose at best its a mild fine vs a felony...if you compare a hand gun to a car.

The current DOMA says NO, a same sex marriage is not legal in all states. That is being challenged. An unconstitutional law is no reason for other unconstitutional laws.

Your friend should have challenged his ticket in court, he would have won. Illinos would not have to issue a license or registration to that vehicle but it was LEGALLY registered and they must allow it to be driven as well as any other vehicle from Missouri. If your friend MOVES to Illinois he would have to bring the car in compliance before registering it there.

The police were wrong (which he may or may not have been aware of) and your friend rolled over and paid the fine. Illinois made money. Why not?

Vermont does not rewquire drivers education for persons under age 18 to get a drivers license (most states do not) Illinois does. Our son's Vermont drivers license is valid in Illionois though he would not even qualify to take their license exam if we lived there. If we moved to Illinois in the next 1.5 years, Pasha would have to go through a drivers education course before he could take their exam.

The concealed carry law proposed does not allow someone from another state to MOVE TO California and carry a firearm concealed. It allows them to pass through or do so for a limited time, just as drivers license is temporarily honored.

[Captain Oates 911]

In Florida, cars have no front license plate and I see rental cars here from Florida

There must be some exemption otherwise they would be committing an offense all over the place

I use to live in Florida but I didn't do it in order to associate with the like minded in order to form a ghetto of clones because that causes exclusion rather than inclusion. I did it for the dolphins and direct flights Manchester UK -Tampa

I don't define diversity as a collection of various undiversified pockets of the like-minded who resent outsider's values, and the gov agree with me and that is why pupils are bussed.

Unfortunately, agreeing with the Federal Government is not popular, but this proposed law law has the advantage of preventing us being classed as felons if we stray down the road

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

And actually both seem closely related. More and More states are issuing both, eventually all states I guess will allow both.

Well thats the topic isn't it? That all states are to be forced to recognize CCW from other states.

Only temporarily for residents of other states. Just as rules for issuing drivers licenses vary yet states honor all drivers licenses at least temporarily.

again, keep in mind that 38 states have already chosen to offer reciprocity by their own enacted legislation. This is not a new idea.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Gary and Alla