Are your Politics / Religion converted ?

[Captain Oates 910]

I would like to know whether ANY VJ member has ever changed their political outlook or religious belief in any way as a result of the arguments and debates they have read online ?

I suspect that a persons beliefs are set in their head at birth. I don't think kind, altruistic, fair minded, logical people are nurtured any more than gays are gay because of their nurture

I saw the traits of my children's characters at an early age and also those of my cats

I think that lefties are born with the sense of fairness and outrage and rightos are born selfish and grasping and violent if necessary to keep their toys. Similarly I think people are born open to superstition (that is how I regard religion), or not.

Are there ANY VJ members who have had their politics or religion converted online AND as a result of debate, rather than reading something they were already susceptible to ? Just one ?

IF not, then we are all wasting our time because what is the point of debate if it is impossible to win just one person over by force of logic and reasoned argument ?

[^_^ 5,021]

If everyone always felt the same way about everything political, nothing would change. But things do change. Sometimes we have a Dem governor, sometimes a GOP governor. Sometimes a Dem president, sometimes a GOP president. Even if the effect of debate is to inhibit or encourage turnout and not actually change minds that is still real.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I would like to know whether ANY VJ member has ever changed their political outlook or religious belief in any way as a result of the arguments and debates they have read online ?

I suspect that a persons beliefs are set in their head at birth. I don't think kind, altruistic, fair minded, logical people are nurtured any more than gays are gay because of their nurture

I saw the traits of my children's characters at an early age and also those of my cats

I think that lefties are born with the sense of fairness and outrage and rightos are born selfish and grasping and violent if necessary to keep their toys. Similarly I think people are born open to superstition (that is how I regard religion), or not.

Are there ANY VJ members who have had their politics or religion converted online AND as a result of debate, rather than reading something they were already susceptible to ? Just one ?

IF not, then we are all wasting our time because what is the point of debate if it is impossible to win just one person over by force of logic and reasoned argument ?

You should probably just stop thinking. It would be best for you.

Life experience plays a huge role in the way people feel about the world.

I've never been changed by what I've seen online, but I have been altered only by my experiences and that of others. Living in different parts of the country has helped with that as well. I'm both liberal and conservative in many ways. I mostly live under the guise of being responsible for yourself and let others live their own lives as they will, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else's ability to live their live as they wish to.

I used to be a lot more "left wing" I would say than anything else until I started working, earning a living, and learning the value of a dollar. People want to complain about the rich not paying their fair share, I can point out many cases there the "poor" aren't doing their fair share either other than just being ticks/leeches sucking the blood out of the system.

There's an old adage that says "if you're young and conservative, you have no heart. if you're old and liberal, you have no brain." - It's pretty accurate in many ways, but the key is finding the middle ground there. Human nature is a beast that shouldn't be tangled with too much and why laws of men should be carefully done so not to interfere with ones livlihood. Unfortunately both conservative and liberal sides of the spectrum don't realize this and it's why we end up with the turmoil we have around the world today.

[^_^ 5,021]

I mostly live under the guise of being responsible for yourself and let others live their own lives as they will...

So a guise is all it is?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

So a guise is all it is?

you have to let people appear they are in control of their own lives to make society work.

Of course it's a guise. We have governments and rules of law for a reason.

However those rules of law get out of hand when the guise is taken away and you tell someone you are actually taking their liberty away.

Governments grab a stronghold over their citizens all the time, but it's not always so obvious.

I live my life and leave others alone, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to get things done if necessary.

[Captain Oates 910]

If everyone always felt the same way about everything political, nothing would change. But things do change. Sometimes we have a Dem governor, sometimes a GOP governor. Sometimes a Dem president, sometimes a GOP president. Even if the effect of debate is to inhibit or encourage turnout and not actually change minds that is still real.

I read that expression encourages someone else to vote even if they haven't changed their minds and were what they were all the time

That is valid and justifies posting and answers my question of "is it worth carrying on debating ?"

However

I want to a scalp. Just one. I don't think I will ever get one.

Not in politics

Not in religion

My dad was always left and was the best person I have ever met despite having many imperfections and only rising to be a co-op van driver

My mother was a bad #### righto and was mean and vindictive and punitive and judgmental to everyone except me who she doted on because I was hers - a typical parochial righto approach. She was of course a christian while my dad wasn't interested in religion - especially after 6 years in the war including two in Burma, He saw what christians urged men to do to other men.

Neither of them could be converted, either politically or in matters of religion

I am sure that I can't

you have to let people appear they are in control of their own lives to make society work.

Of course it's a guise. We have governments and rules of law for a reason.

However those rules of law get out of hand when the guise is taken away and you tell someone you are actually taking their liberty away.

Governments grab a stronghold over their citizens all the time, but it's not always so obvious.

I live my life and leave others alone, but that doesn't mean I don't know how to get things done if necessary.

I assume that means you know how to convert someone to your religion/politics - or are we talking militias ?

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I assume that means you know how to convert someone to your religion/politics - or are we talking militias ?

I'm talking illusion.

Being able to show sympathy towards a situation almost always clicks something into someone's head that you are there to help them. Even though there may be no reason for them to trust you otherwise. It's how politicians get away with murder sometimes. Most politicians aren't stupid enough to make 'promises,' but they are smart enough to leave you feeling like they gave you a promise by the way they handle an issue. Sympathy and Empathy are great weapons in a political war.

Those who pay attention and udnerstand how thing work, know that the top politicians aren't conservative or liberal. They are just out there to do/say whatever may get them re-elected to let them keep their power.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Being open to change requires having a liberal mind, which isn't necessarily exclusive to what we conventionally label as liberal in politics. If one is reasonably minded and lets reason guide their opinions, then why wouldn't their views be open to change? It's strictly adhering to an ideology as substitute for reason where arguments run into brick walls. It's the, "I can't agree with this idea or concept because it contradicts my ideology." For example, if my ideological belief is that government by default is incapable of doing anything positive, every bit of news or proposal that involves the government, I'm rejecting outright and refuse to even consider the reasoning behind it.

This is where the political discourse is at right now in this country - polarized to where one side sees no real benefit to government services. The redeeming factor though is that most of America is NOT ideological. If an idea or proposal will work, they are open to it. However, the ideologues of the Far Right are relentless in trying to dismantle government to a point of ineffectiveness, with the end result being used as 'proof' that government can't work for people.

[Captain Oates 910]

I'm talking illusion.

Being able to show sympathy towards a situation almost always clicks something into someone's head that you are there to help them. Even though there may be no reason for them to trust you otherwise. It's how politicians get away with murder sometimes. Most politicians aren't stupid enough to make 'promises,' but they are smart enough to leave you feeling like they gave you a promise by the way they handle an issue. Sympathy and Empathy are great weapons in a political war.

Those who pay attention and udnerstand how thing work, know that the top politicians aren't conservative or liberal. They are just out there to do/say whatever may get them re-elected to let them keep their power.

That does seem to be what has happened to American politics somewhat more than others

I suppose I am used to UK politics where a 13 year old coal miner gets to be health minister and creates the national health service and then dies with the same money he had before

Aneurin Bevan

That kind of story is inspirational but still doesn't convert the right wing. He and Churchill hated each other and the army became left wing and hated Churchill and voted him out in a landslide in 1945

How many Americans know that ?

[kytwell 179]

I vote for every non-incumbent, regardless of party. I don't want any career politicians. I want new blood every cycle. If the election is between 2 noobies then I'll lean towards the one who matches up best with my leanings. Also I need to change my party affiliation again. The county where I am and whom I am employed by is now Democrat controlled and I need 6 more years to reach 20yrs here and be able to collect a full pension once I'm 55. I was a Dem for the first 6, I've been an R for the last 8, now time to switch parties again.

[mawilson 2,133]

I would like to know whether ANY VJ member has ever changed their political outlook or religious belief in any way as a result of the arguments and debates they have read online ?

I think Lord Infamous was more conservative back in 2008.

If everyone always felt the same way about everything political, nothing would change. But things do change. Sometimes we have a Dem governor, sometimes a GOP governor. Sometimes a Dem president, sometimes a GOP president.

And yet there's no difference...

[Captain Oates 910]

I vote for every non-incumbent, regardless of party. I don't want any career politicians. I want new blood every cycle. If the election is between 2 noobies then I'll lean towards the one who matches up best with my leanings. Also I need to change my party affiliation again. The county where I am and whom I am employed by is now Democrat controlled and I need 6 more years to reach 20yrs here and be able to collect a full pension once I'm 55. I was a Dem for the first 6, I've been an R for the last 8, now time to switch parties again.

Please say I influenced you even a tiny bit - I have been searching for a meaning to my life and it would give me so much serenity if you were to say that

That aside, when I was 15, I learned that accountants were lazy, good for nothing, unproductive, overpaid leeches on society who worked in air conditioned offices surrounded by beautiful young girls - and I thought, "Well if you cant beat em join em".. and i did, and never looked back

[웃 910]

I think Lord Infamous was more conservative back in 2008.

Yep.

I was a Christian before Atheist. And a Republican before Democrat.

I will admit that many things I read online here at VJ helped me pry my sealed eyes open in regards to politics. But my religious beliefs were figured out on my own - no online influence.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Online debate changing things? No.

My views are drastically different however. From about 23 and younger I was definately a conservative christian republican. Since becoming more exposed to the world, I have become much more moderate in my views. I would not say that I am a democrat however.

Unfortunately over the past couple of years I've been really jaded by the US government to the point where I feel like the United States experiment is an absolute failure and the voting public have lost control over the system. Maybe every generation gets this way at a certain age.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Sousuke

[Captain Oates 910]

Yep.

I was a Christian before Atheist. And a Republican before Democrat.

I will admit that many things I read online here at VJ helped me pry my sealed eyes open in regards to politics. But my religious beliefs were figured out on my own - no online influence.

Damn you met me too late