Wife's son is moving out already. I have concerns.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

VV - I have been out of pocket for awhile, but I am sorry to read all of this and hope all is resolved amicably. At the risk of being flamed - I do have a law degree and would like to offer a few comments. Please take them in the good spirit in which I offer them. No promises about the spelling though.

First, I agree completely with your decision to not do a Russian divorce. This will not necessarily take you off the hook here, and even if it did, the burden is on you to prove all.

Second, I would advise against a do-it-yourself divorce. It is cheaper up front, but very easy to contest later if she stays here for any reason. Even if her status here isn't legal, those issues (support and residency)in most states are not related. Make her get a lawyer and negotiate every single thing, and have it documented. Not to make a lawyer rich, but to protect you later. I did my divorce myself years ago, and speak from experience here.

Third, although it is tough to believe for some, try not to worry too much about the cost of support during separation, or the cost of separation itself. Based on what I read about your stress level and health, you will see that anything you paid was a bargain.

Fourth and finally, I agree that you should not support any settlement that allows her to rely on you in any way for citizenship. You might escape your affadavit-based support obligation, but you are on the hook for a very real American priced support agreement with multiple adjustments after that. If she stays and uses your I-864 based promise to file for government support, the burden is on her to file and prove up front (the government takes it from there). As a citizen and therefore permanent resident, I would worry that she could come back over and over for adjustment to the initial support. She is an immigrant, newly divorced, unfamiliar with the cost of things, you are a blankety-blank, etc. You would have to pay to defend yourself from every accusation or request.

Thanks Brad, I retract any of my previous comments about lawyers as they may apply to you.

[visaveteran1 33]

VV - I have been out of pocket for awhile, but I am sorry to read all of this and hope all is resolved amicably. At the risk of being flamed - I do have a law degree and would like to offer a few comments. Please take them in the good spirit in which I offer them. No promises about the spelling though.

First, I agree completely with your decision to not do a Russian divorce. This will not necessarily take you off the hook here, and even if it did, the burden is on you to prove all.

Second, I would advise against a do-it-yourself divorce. It is cheaper up front, but very easy to contest later if she stays here for any reason. Even if her status here isn't legal, those issues (support and residency)in most states are not related. Make her get a lawyer and negotiate every single thing, and have it documented. Not to make a lawyer rich, but to protect you later. I did my divorce myself years ago, and speak from experience here.

Third, although it is tough to believe for some, try not to worry too much about the cost of support during separation, or the cost of separation itself. Based on what I read about your stress level and health, you will see that anything you paid was a bargain.

Fourth and finally, I agree that you should not support any settlement that allows her to rely on you in any way for citizenship. You might escape your affadavit-based support obligation, but you are on the hook for a very real American priced support agreement with multiple adjustments after that. If she stays and uses your I-864 based promise to file for government support, the burden is on her to file and prove up front (the government takes it from there). As a citizen and therefore permanent resident, I would worry that she could come back over and over for adjustment to the initial support. She is an immigrant, newly divorced, unfamiliar with the cost of things, you are a blankety-blank, etc. You would have to pay to defend yourself from every accusation or request.

Brad, thank you for both the concern and the great expert comments. I appreciate it very much.

Let me follow-up with a couple points. I have consulted a lawyer regarding my situation. This was a lawyer available free through the military but he is a seasoned civilian lawyer well-versed on my state's divorce laws. While he can offer advice, he can't represent me in the actual divorce process. The thing he stressed in my favor is it is a short marriage and she's leaving just after her son arrived...something that could be viewed as visa fraud, but certainly a judge would look at that as a bit dubious. Simply said, the timing of her departure is interesting. The lawyer seemed to feel worse case I might have to pay some alimony but again stressed the "shortness of the marriage." Of course, he recommended I consult a divorce attorney.

I also know my wife consulted an attorney as well...undoubtedly a Russian one. From what I know about that meeting, the attorney stressed that my wife should get her citizenship or be vulnerable, and not much else. This was when we were discussing my wife returning to Russia to get a Russian divorce. So, she felt that leaving the country was a risk for her and inserted her demand that she get her citizenship before moving on with divorce. That's when I switched gears and decided to pursue an American divorce.

My wife has not shown any signs of wanting to battle me for more money or other benefits after I presented her with my offer. This could be because her lawyer also see's the dubious timing of her son coming over here and her talking divorce so quickly. It was encouraging she did not storm in with demands for a better deal after talking to a lawyer. She has agreed to both my separation offer and the ultimate divorce. My sense is my wife is nervous about possible immigration problems and wants to not get into trouble.

Her son is 21 years old and not my problem beyond the affidavit of support. As you mentioned, the burden is on them to extract money from me and that is not something I'm concerned about.

As to doing my own divorce, let me say that I did my first divorce (with an American woman) myself and it went very smoothly and without any further issues, filings,etc. I will add that my ex wife and I had a very friendly divorce. We remain on good terms to this day.

I understand things could be different this time around, but given my financial situation, I am willing to risk problems and continue to do my own divorce. Yes, ideally, I'd lawyer up and go the conventional route. But I'm getting a strong vibe my wife won't have the nerve, heart or stomach for a fight with me. Instead, I think she prefers to end up with me as a resource after the divorce, not an enemy.

I hope I'm reading her correctly.

Edited November 26, 2011 by visaveteran1

[Brad and Vika 129]

Brad, thank you for both the concern and the great expert comments. I appreciate it very much.

Let me follow-up with a couple points. I have consulted a lawyer regarding my situation. This was a lawyer available free through the military but he is a seasoned civilian lawyer well-versed on my state's divorce laws. While he can offer advice, he can't represent me in the actual divorce process. The thing he stressed in my favor is it is a short marriage and she's leaving just after her son arrived...something that could be viewed as visa fraud, but certainly a judge would look at that as a bit dubious. Simply said, the timing of her departure is interesting. The lawyer seemed to feel worse case I might have to pay some alimony but again stressed the "shortness of the marriage." Of course, he recommended I consult a divorce attorney.

I also know my wife consulted an attorney as well...undoubtedly a Russian one. From what I know about that meeting, the attorney stressed that my wife should get her citizenship or be vulnerable, and not much else. This was when we were discussing my wife returning to Russia to get a Russian divorce. So, she felt that leaving the country was a risk for her and inserted her demand that she get her citizenship before moving on with divorce. That's when I switched gears and decided to pursue an American divorce.

My wife has not shown any signs of wanting to battle me for more money or other benefits after I presented her with my offer. This could be because her lawyer also see's the dubious timing of her son coming over here and her talking divorce so quickly. It was encouraging she did not storm in with demands for a better deal after talking to a lawyer. She has agreed to both my separation offer and the ultimate divorce. My sense is my wife is nervous about possible immigration problems and wants to not get into trouble.

Her son is 21 years old and not my problem beyond the affidavit of support. As you mentioned, the burden is on them to extract money from me and that is not something I'm concerned about.

As to doing my own divorce, let me say that I did my first divorce (with an American woman) myself and it went very smoothly and without any further issues, filings,etc. I will add that my ex wife and I had a very friendly divorce. We remain on good terms to this day.

I understand things could be different this time around, but given my financial situation, I am willing to risk problems and continue to do my own divorce. Yes, ideally, I'd lawyer up and go the conventional route. But I'm getting a strong vibe my wife won't have the nerve, heart or stomach for a fight with me. Instead, I think she prefers to end up with me as a resource after the divorce, not an enemy.

I hope I'm reading her correctly.

You are welcome, happy to help if I can. I for one appreciate you actually posting some of the details here so that others may benefit from the experience. Most simply choose to disappear from the site. I wonder if there is an issue or two that you think is the root cause of the situation. Over the course of years, the common theme in most breakups seems to be not knowing each other as well as the couple thought. Based only on your posts I would not have guessed that here. Please don't answer if you think it is too personal.

Some of the other things you mentioned, like a breakdown in intimacy and dressing to impress at a time that doesn't seem right, probably transcend the RUB environment. Those do seem to be general signs that one partner is drifting. I agree with your attorney that the timing in your case could not be more suspicious though.

[Danno 1,228]

You are not responsible for his support or medical bills.

The I-864 obligations are very specific. You are only responsible if he receives means tested benefits. You should read the instructions for the I-864 to understand your obligations.

Have they really come after people to collect?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Have they really come after people to collect?

I have often wondered that myself. I still have never figured out why they don;t just deep-six the whole I-864 thing and simply make it impossible for any family immigrant to receive welfare until they are a citizen? Wait...nm

[visaveteran1 33]

You are welcome, happy to help if I can. I for one appreciate you actually posting some of the details here so that others may benefit from the experience. Most simply choose to disappear from the site. I wonder if there is an issue or two that you think is the root cause of the situation. Over the course of years, the common theme in most breakups seems to be not knowing each other as well as the couple thought. Based only on your posts I would not have guessed that here. Please don't answer if you think it is too personal.

Some of the other things you mentioned, like a breakdown in intimacy and dressing to impress at a time that doesn't seem right, probably transcend the RUB environment. Those do seem to be general signs that one partner is drifting. I agree with your attorney that the timing in your case could not be more suspicious though.

Beyond the typical issues that lead to divorce, irregardless of country of origin, I would say poor language skills is a big problem with a RUB wife...at least in my case. My wife spoke little English in the beginning and while she studied here for over two years, she never seemed to really immerse herself in study or homework. There has been progress but it has been slow and we continue with a degree of what I call "Tarzan" English. "Me Tarzan. You Jane." I had to learn to speak this way, rarely speaking in rich full sentences. Sometimes I find myself speaking that way to others, especially someone who looks like they might be an immigrant. Later, I feel silly for doing so.

I'm certain if I understood Russian fluently, my wife could drop her conversations with me to a deeper, richer and more profound place...and if the reverse were true, I could achieve that same level of real mature talks and we could fully explore each other's feelings and views on life. While on a daily basis, we are merely strapped with language limitations that dilute our routine talks...when we have a dispute, argument, or other problem, neither person can give clear, concise, sophisticated and finesse responses...so we end up frustrated that we can't have a conversational breakthrough to resolve the problem...or even, at the least, be fully heard and understood. We end up entangled in an adolescent, elementary school-level spat. This leads to more anger, frustration and immature yelling and "acting out." This becomes a dysfunctional, ever worsening process.

A second RUB related issue is sex...but not the universal kinds of sex problems. I think in a fairly large segment of the RUB female population, the women are abused, treated like sex slaves to their husbands, boyfriends, shack-up mates and generally the woman's pleasure is secondary or of no importance at all. The Russian men, in their hyper male-dominated society, just don't care if their women are satisfied or not...it's all about them. The end result is RUB women, some of them anyway, just become performers and fakers. The husband says "NOW!" and the women drop everything and service the man in that moment. That scenario can't do much to promote pleasure and satisfaction in Russian women.

I speak from experience with a total of four RUB women I had relationships with. Each woman, in different ways, showed they had sex issues that I felt were flowing out of their cultural experiences rather than individual idiosyncrasy or personality...or because of me. Frankly, in contrast to the common mythology here on the RUB forum, American women, for all their "issues," were better lovers overall. Yes, they didn't have that piazz dress code nor devoted hours to hair and make-up and clothing appearance...but when it came time to "dance," the American women seemed more open to more things...and were able to have real pleasure and orgasms.

I'm speaking about a small sample of both Russian and American women, but that's my truth. Your mileage may vary.

The end result in my case was my wife didn't go for a lot of kissing and foreplay and romance "preparation." Rather, she quickly moved into her "porn star" act and just worked to take care of me and that was that. Often she'd fake orgasm but I know it was difficult for her to actually achieve real pleasure. I asked her about it and she usually went into denial or anger...but twice, in a moment of honesty, she'd use the word "seldom" or "difficult" to describe her orgasm situation. I know she was physically abused by one of her husbands and several of her man friends in Russia hurt her by flaunting their mistresses or other sex partners. She has emotional and physical issues in my judgment...perhaps even requiring mental health assistance.

I can't gauge how much is on me in this sex issue. I am not bragging when I say I've had some great lovers down through the years when I was single...and I think I get how to please a woman...with traditional or unconventional means...depending on what the woman wants. Despite my age, I continue with a normal libido and abilities (knock on "wood"). But I'm not letting myself totally off the hook. But here again, if I can't communicate fully and deeply with my wife, how can we address something as complicated and awkward to discuss as the world's greatest paradox: sex.

To further exacerbate the sex problem, my wife, like most RUB women, dresses like a high-class call girl when going out into the world. I used to enjoy her lack of inhabitation and her brassy style of attire, but when she's at home, it's devolved to wearing my old t-shirts and "American style" boring clothes. That is a change. When she first came to the US, she'd clean the house in tight black toreador pants (used to call them "peddle pushers") and other interesting items. Now that's transformed into more bland and unexciting clothing. She, like other's I've heard about on this forum, has become "Americanized" and puts much less energy and effort in looking good "just for me." So, when I see her dressing up to go out, it hurts to realize that effort is not for or about pleasing me: it's ego and the desire for attention...and maybe cultural. In any case, it just fuels my own anger at our situation.

I could say more but this is a very long post. Sorry for the "text dump" but Brad asked and I tried to give him a full answer. There are more issues to this marriage milieu, but I hit the hugh points.

[visaveteran1 33]

Quick bullet point statement follow-up on marriage issues:

* Language matters. Make sure your RUB woman and you can communicate well, especially if disputes arise.

* Sex matters: Look beyond the beauty, clothes and "porn star" act. Are they really capable of intimacy and authentic eroticism?

* Avoid the "puppy dog" syndrome. Yes, they're charming and fun at first...but will you regret your perhaps impulsive decision later? Are you willing to accept their dependency, limitations and burdensome ways later own? The cute and cuddly won't last forever, but picking up their ####### will. Think long-term.

* New culture adaptation is critical; yet hard to judge or determine early on. Try to meet outside both homelands and see how the adaptation skills work for both parties. Places like Turkey, Cyprus and the Dominican Republic are good choices, IMO.

* Can they pull their own weight? How are they doing in their homeland economically? Do they have a real potential for economic and career success in the US? Or will they be overly dependent on you for support? Basically, are they "go-getters or not?

* If they have children, are you willing and capable of letting them into your life? Can you afford them? Tolerate their different ways? Address the same language limitations? Be their surrogate father even if they may be older or young adults?

[baron555 934]

Quick bullet point statement follow-up on marriage issues:

* Language matters. Make sure your RUB woman and you can communicate well, especially if disputes arise.

* Sex matters: Look beyond the beauty, clothes and "porn star" act. Are they really capable of intimacy and authentic eroticism?

* Avoid the "puppy dog" syndrome. Yes, they're charming and fun at first...but will you regret your perhaps impulsive decision later? Are you willing to accept their dependency, limitations and burdensome ways later own? The cute and cuddly won't last forever, but picking up their ####### will. Think long-term.

* New culture adaptation is critical; yet hard to judge or determine early on. Try to meet outside both homelands and see how the adaptation skills work for both parties. Places like Turkey, Cyprus and the Dominican Republic are good choices, IMO.

* Can they pull their own weight? How are they doing in their homeland economically? Do they have a real potential for economic and career success in the US? Or will they be overly dependent on you for support? Basically, are they "go-getters or not?

* If they have children, are you willing and capable of letting them into your life? Can you afford them? Tolerate their different ways? Address the same language limitations? Be their surrogate father even if they may be older or young adults?

All superb points; that both parties should vet out before making a commitment.

[baron555 934]

My wife spoke little English in the beginning and while she studied here for over two years, she never seemed to really immerse herself in study or homework. There has been progress but it has been slow and we continue with a degree of what I call "Tarzan" English. "Me Tarzan. You Jane." I had to learn to speak this way, rarely speaking in rich full sentences. .

So, more to making an example to others as opposed to interogating you VV, HOW did you and your wife communicate back in the beginning and before she moved here?

IMHO not knowing at least a common language or having some means to communicate in complex subjects is just a big red flag.

My wife, who had taken English classes prior to meeting me, had to sort of start all over, getting used to my pronunciation was her biggest hurdle; she had learned English from either British teachers or Russians speaking English.

When we met in Kiev, I had brought along my laptop which had Promt translation software. I had put Cyrillic letter overlays on the keyboard and we were able to go to that for the few times we both had something long and drawn out to say, rather than using the dictionary. I can say that my wife has put a lot of time into learning proper English and grammar after she got here; I have also spent much time with her helping her with her "homework" each after I got home from work and after the little was put to bed.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Quick bullet point statement follow-up on marriage issues:

* Language matters. Make sure your RUB woman and you can communicate well, especially if disputes arise.

* Sex matters: Look beyond the beauty, clothes and "porn star" act. Are they really capable of intimacy and authentic eroticism?

* Avoid the "puppy dog" syndrome. Yes, they're charming and fun at first...but will you regret your perhaps impulsive decision later? Are you willing to accept their dependency, limitations and burdensome ways later own? The cute and cuddly won't last forever, but picking up their ####### will. Think long-term.

* New culture adaptation is critical; yet hard to judge or determine early on. Try to meet outside both homelands and see how the adaptation skills work for both parties. Places like Turkey, Cyprus and the Dominican Republic are good choices, IMO.

* Can they pull their own weight? How are they doing in their homeland economically? Do they have a real potential for economic and career success in the US? Or will they be overly dependent on you for support? Basically, are they "go-getters or not?

* If they have children, are you willing and capable of letting them into your life? Can you afford them? Tolerate their different ways? Address the same language limitations? Be their surrogate father even if they may be older or young adults?

Very good points for those considering life with a RUB woman (or any woman) And YES the amazing beauty of women can make us crazy sometimes!

OK language issue was not a problem here, Alla can teach ME English. Other than her accent and her former lack of knowledge of slang and idioms, there is no problem having a very deep conversation with her. And her accent is no porblem for me. She is highly educated. intelligent and outgoing. I will say that if you adopted a very basic level of speaking you did her no good in advancing her skills and it is something that needs to be force fed, like drinking from a fire hydrant, for quite some time. FWIW for others, you have to help your spouse with English and that means speaking in normal sentences, with normal English structure (you do not have to use the "biggest" words) but you should NEVER say "go store" Every so often I still use a word that Alla does not understand, some are simple actually...such as "rear" I was talking to her about a pistol and referred to the "rear sight" To her ear it sounded like I said "weer" and I had to repeat it with her several times until she got it correct. But you have to take the time to do this or they never improve and if they feel insecure about their speech it hinders them greatly in social aspects and if they were formerly very social, this willl be a problem. Not so much that they cannot speak, but that they feel trapped.

As regards sex, while Alla gives herself to me without restriction she does demand to be satisfied in return, and she will NOT fake it. If she doesn't "get hers" in a ratio of something like 5:1 (minimum...no fair!) THAT will piss her off more than about anything else. And I MEAN more than anything else. That is why when this thread started I said that any variation in the sex department would be very indicitive of a huge problem in this house. You may be right, VV about Russian men (I can't say) but Alla says one of my "big pluses" is my obvious pleasure and desire to please her as well. I do know that she has said that her former husband was "unable to please any woman" mainly because he was a drunk and abusive. Fair is fair. I could not even imagine a complaint I would have in that department and think we (men) ought to return the favor. Communication is the key. This is the woman you sleep naked with, exchange bodily fluids with and if you cannot plainly and simply tell or show each other what you want and what pleases you sexually, then there is going to be problems rooted in more than sex. You statement about intimacy is very important and I can say that sex without intimacy is not nearly as satisfying. Make your relationship INTIMATE in every way you can. Try to begin and end each day with intimacy, not necessarily sex (though it often will be even if you did not plan it that way) We take a bath toegther every night, go to bed togetherat the same time. Read a book to each other, it helps their English and I cannot begin to tell you how many books Alla read to me, a whole stack of them when I was recovering from surgery. It is hard to have a bad day when you start and end like this and it is hard to get mad at someone when you are relaxing in a tub of hot water. Another thing to consider is if the woman enjoys dressing this way to please herself. If she does, you need not worry. If she is just role playing to please you it will eventually become "old" unless she is also getting what she wants. Alla LOVES dressing sexy to make herself feel good and while her dress is very conservative (OK "High class call girl") she is extremely sexual, as in feminine sexual, as opposed to "sexy" or "slutty". I do not know the best word for it. Maybe I have not described it well, maybe I can't But she always looks... WOW! But even your grandmother would approve of how she dresses. There is nothing too short, too tight, too low, too high. Under it all is sexy lace, stockings, etc because it makes her feel good.

Culture change was a problem and was the main problem we had for maybe the first year. There are a lot of misconceptions and since almost none of them have ever been here they have no idea that all of us are not "rich" and we have to work, pay for stuff and plan for things just like anyone else and while we do OK it is mostly because we plan and prioritize, certainly not because we are "rich" The whole thing with automobiles...Alla told me "I will probably not drive much when we live in America" Um...yeah...you will. She was here about 1 day and said "I will die if I do not drive" I wish there were something we could pass on to the "new guys" but there is no way to convince them that life in America is not the same as that video travelogue propoganda they saw at the consulate. Heck, she was discouraged to learn that we could probably NOT go to Disney World AND the Grand Canyon during a 1 week vacation! And even more discouraged to learn that since we have children scattered around the USA, a mother in the USA and a child in Russia and a mother in Ukraine, we pretty much visit family here or there and that eats up the vacation time and money!

Whether they pull thier own weight is a decision for each couple. I never had a question that Alla was a "go getter". She also is a person that plans...it is a strategic plan for her to get a degree and use it to provide a living when I retire. If it is desired that they work at some job, discuss and plan this before hand. If they want to be a traditional woman and stay home, that is OK too if it is what you desire.

If they have children...remember that to ANY woman her children are going to be more important than you even if they are your children together. I think woman would throw her husband under a bus, even the father of her children, to save her children. If you are involved or thinking of being involved with a woman with children, or who wants to have children, then you have to be willing to make them number 1. The good news is that anything you do for the children will be returned to you in spades. Alla's Number One BIG PLUS is that I have done as much as I can for the children and have taken a true interest in them and will do anything for them and truly consider them "mine".

In general, if you are going to have kids, make them number one and you will always be happy. Alla says she wants a "good husband AND a good father" both for the children and for her...and that is not as creepy as it sounds. "And do not mix them"

Thanks for your honest insight VV.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I can say that my wife has put a lot of time into learning proper English and grammar after she got here; I have also spent much time with her helping her with her "homework" each after I got home from work and after the little was put to bed.

Extremely important, I did this also and with Pasha also. Every night 2-3 hours for several months after they arrived. And I helped Alla with her homework throughout her degree and still answer questions for Pasha, though he is doing so much better and is definitely in the normal range of a kid asking parents for help with homework.

Good for you, Phil! It pays off in a lot of ways and they never forget this. I think also you are devoted to your wonderful little boy and that will glue you two together like nothing else can

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Am I the only one on this forum that wishes their wife didn't speak English?

[TBoneTX 45,309]

Am I the only one on this forum that wishes their wife didn't speak English?

Si, man?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Am I the only one on this forum that wishes their wife didn't speak English?

I wish Alla did not TEACH English sometimes..."You cannot use "was" in this case, you must use "were" because the gerund is after the consonant and i is before e"

Yeah? ####### EVER!

[eekee 182]

I wish Alla did not TEACH English sometimes..."You cannot use "was" in this case, you must use "were" because the gerund is after the consonant and i is before e"

Yeah? ####### EVER!

I'm with Alla on this one. Let's preserve the subjunctive mood in English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood#English

So many native speakers don't use it correctly, even in publications, etc. and it drives me crazy.