American exceptionalism

[Captain Oates 911]

But we do spread the love. Quite frequently. Including Alan. Look, we live here because we want to live here not because this is home where were born and raised. That by itself is a pretty deep expression of love and appreciation for the country. We chose to make it our home. I've had a pretty good run after moving to the US. Haven't gotten rich but I am doing reasonably well and I am happy with my life. Do you really believe I'd be here if I hated this country?

Me too. I have 3 incomes from the UK that are 100% guaranteed by the UK govt. I also have a nice stack of liquid funds which yield more than my UK incomes. I have both European Union and US passports which means that I can live anywhere from Hawaii to Crete without permission

The fact that I choose to live in the USA is a pretty good indication that I am not a USA hater.

However, I do have a vested interest in making things better in the USA and that cannot happen without criticizing the status quo in the USA

I have never been able to critique the status quo and advocate changes without some nativist coming on and saying its all perfect here and exceptional, and anyone who advocates change, especially along the lines of some other country, is a USA hater.

That is a national characteristic going right back to the revolution and is one of the factors holding the country back. Luckily, the people are waking up to that and things will change, albeit more slowly than otherwise.

The fact that more than 50% of the voters elected a left wing half black man as president is evidence of that.

The grumpy nativists over-estimate their support and I will continue to have more rights than an egg

Edited November 8, 2011 by Austin Devon

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The amount of money that Americans give to charity is staggering.

This is true. But the comparison is also problematic. Much of what is addressed by charities here in the field of health and human services, for example, does not require charity in other developed countries which take care of essential services for their populations in the normal course of business. You don't see people trying to raise money so they can afford a medically necessary procedure in Europe. Just doesn't happen. Hence, there's no giving to address this void.

[kytwell 179]

I hear a lot about American exceptionalism

Some people interpret that in supremacist way and others understand it to mean that the American constitution etc allows an egalitarian society in which anyone can do well

Chris Matthews on MSNBC has a trailer which states that only in the US could a Barack Obama make it to the white house

We don't have to go far to see that is self-congratulatory boloney

Willie Brand was an illegitimate and poor German and made it to chancellor

The UK has had Prime Ministers which were

A Jewish

B Female

C A circus trapeze artist's son with a cockney accent

The US can't equal that

I think that the US is equaled by many countries as far as upward mobility is concerned

So is American exceptionalism just a boast designed to make other peoples feel inferior ? I can turn on my telly any night of the week and hear that the US is "The finest country that has ever existed in the history of the world". Is exceptionalism just more of the same ?

I have heard Americans say that the US is exceptional but in a bad way - it is the exception in not having universal health care, declining educational standards, low life expectancy etc etc etc.

I wouldn't pile on in that way because the US is far from finished and the decline need only be temporary, but isn't it time for the boasting to stop - boasting never did help any country to gain friends - or is American exceptionalism something different to boasting and where people in other countries need not feel they are being belittled ?

I think it has its roots from the 1800's when a French writer made the claim in regards to us. And if someone in another country feels belittled by something someone says in another country 1000's of miles away, they have some personal problems they need sorted out by a shrink. As for needing friends, in the globalized economy of today, it's self serving, but not always a necessity, depending upon what global aspirations are.

If you don't think we should say it, then go argue with everyone you come across who says it or believes it. It won't change their beliefs. Just as a non believer such as yourself, won't change your mind regardless of how many examples presented to show that we just may be.

It's all just more propaganda to keep us infighting against one another.

Edited November 8, 2011 by kytwell

[_Simpson_ 250]

This is true. But the comparison is also problematic. Much of what is addressed by charities here in the field of health and human services, for example, does not require charity in other developed countries which take care of essential services for their populations in the normal course of business. You don't see people trying to raise money so they can afford a medically necessary procedure in Europe. Just doesn't happen. Hence, there's no giving to address this void.

And where would the void be if the generous people of this country donated to the the gov. instead. There just isn't enough money to go around. I think its a plus that here in the states Americans have more of a choice in where their money ends up.

[Danno 1,228]

The grumpy nativists over-estimate their support and I will continue to have more rights than an egg

You might be surprised..... have you any idea what the fine is for disturbing the nest (not to mention egg) of an endangered bird?

[Captain Oates 911]

This is true. But the comparison is also problematic. Much of what is addressed by charities here in the field of health and human services, for example, does not require charity in other developed countries which take care of essential services for their populations in the normal course of business. You don't see people trying to raise money so they can afford a medically necessary procedure in Europe. Just doesn't happen. Hence, there's no giving to address this void.

I asked my wife what happens if a person has no money for an operation and she said the town's people usually have a whip round for the money (charity). I was in a motorbike club and a member got sick and they asked everyone for a donation of money. I suppose that is another reason why churches etc are so popular in the USA - not being in a club of some sort could mean one is left to die or saved by a cheap surgeon at the cost of all one's life savings.

The emergency rooms are not free and if I have a paid off house, they will do the operation, sell the house over my head, and then turn me out to live on food stamps under a tarpaulin in the park. That is pretty exceptional in the first world of 2011

Luckily I have a red passport so 10 hours will see me back in a country where that doesn't happen. It is worth millions to me just for that reason alone, but if I didn't have it, I would live in insecurity and/or fear which is what all Americans do in this regard. Anyone who has read a health insurance contract either private or medicare (I have), cannot live at ease if they are dependent on that alone.

Americans want the European system of health care and they elected Obama on that promise. His unpopularity is partly because of that unfulfilled promise

America is exceptional for all the wrong reasons right now - the push to make it hard for potential democrats to vote, eggs as people, outlawing unions, the belief in alien creatures and that the head of state is the anti-christ and all the rest - the country is going backwards fast while the rest of the world goes forwards.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Austin Devon

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

And where would the void be if the generous people of this country donated to the the gov. instead. There just isn't enough money to go around. I think its a plus that here in the states Americans have more of a choice in where their money ends up.

There's more than enough money to go around. On health and human services, we already spend more than anyone else. We just don't have much to show for it despite Americans having more of a choice. If that were true, it would suggest that Americans like to waste all that money.

[_Simpson_ 250]

There's more than enough money to go around. On health and human services, we already spend more than anyone else. We just don't have much to show for it despite Americans having more of a choice. If that were true, it would suggest that Americans like to waste all that money.

You're failing to acknowledge the significance of donations made by the people and trying to tempt me into another debate.

Edited November 8, 2011 by _Simpson_

[Captain Oates 911]

There's more than enough money to go around. On health and human services, we already spend more than anyone else. We just don't have much to show for it despite Americans having more of a choice. If that were true, it would suggest that Americans like to waste all that money.

When I registered with my doctor he asked to meet me. He came in shook hands and said make an appointment for a checkup, and then he walked out. I was billed $174 and he hadn't even touched me apart from the handshake.

Medicare would be vastly over-funded if that kind of stuff was stopped and employer costs would drop and goods and services would be competitive again. It is the doctors and dentists who are getting something for nothing - not the food stamp claimants.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You're failing to acknowledge the significance of donations made by the people and trying to tempt me into another debate.

I know that people make a lot of donations - to churches first and foremost, then to education, then health and human services and so on. What you fail to acknowledge is that you cannot compare the charitable giving of individuals between the US and other developed countries because the realities on the ground - that which people donate to - is so different. Well, you can compare it, of course, but that's as fruitful an exercise as comparing apples and oranges.

[kytwell 179]

I asked my wife what happens if a person has no money for an operation and she said the town's people usually have a whip round for the money (charity). I was in a motorbike club and a member got sick and they asked everyone for a donation of money. I suppose that is another reason why churches etc are so popular in the USA - not being in a club of some sort could mean one is left to die or saved by a cheap surgeon at the cost of all one's life savings.

The emergency rooms are not free and if I have a paid off house, they will do the operation, sell the house over my head, and then turn me out to live on food stamps under a tarpaulin in the park. That is pretty exceptional in the first world of 2011

Luckily I have a red passport so 10 hours will see me back in a country where that doesn't happen. It is worth millions to me just for that reason alone, but if I didn't have it, I would live in insecurity and/or fear which is what all Americans do in this regard. Anyone who has read a health insurance contract either private or medicare (I have), cannot live at ease if they are dependent on that alone.

Americans want the European system of health care and they elected Obama on that promise. His unpopularity is partly because of that unfulfilled promise

America is exceptional for all the wrong reasons right now - the push to make it hard for potential democrats to vote, eggs as people, outlawing unions, the belief in alien creatures and that the head of state is the anti-christ and all the rest - the country is going backwards fast while the rest of the world goes forwards.

Have you or your wife ever heard of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act? It passed in 1986. And as far as I know, based only on Greece's version of socialized medicine, not all procedures are covered there either and many people pay premiums for a supplemental insurance to see private doctors. For example she had woman exam a few weeks ago, it cost her 120 dollars. Here that would be "free" of any copay under my health insurance plan through my employer. If you don't have insurance it would cost roughly the same, maybe it would cost a little more going by your $174 number for a handshake. I don't see what your point is exactly, because all people can receive emergency operations and care here in the USA. And just like overseas some elective procedures are not covered. Preventative care, you pay out of pocket if you're not insured, but that's not much different from what I understand of universal care, based on Greece. I don't know the details of other countries health plans.

[웃 910]

The grumpy nativists over-estimate their support and I will continue to have more rights than an egg

Pretty soon that egg will have a right to vote. Probably next on the Mississippi ballot after today's votes are counted and hatched.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Pretty soon that egg will have a right to vote.

Only if it has a valid state issued picture ID.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Have you or your wife ever heard of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act? It passed in 1986. And as far as I know, based only on Greece's version of socialized medicine, not all procedures are covered there either and many people pay premiums for a supplemental insurance to see private doctors. For example she had woman exam a few weeks ago, it cost her 120 dollars. Here that would be "free" of any copay under my health insurance plan through my employer. If you don't have insurance it would cost roughly the same, maybe it would cost a little more going by your $174 number for a handshake. I don't see what your point is exactly, because all people can receive emergency operations and care here in the USA. And just like overseas some elective procedures are not covered. Preventative care, you pay out of pocket if you're not insured, but that's not much different from what I understand of universal care, based on Greece. I don't know the details of other countries health plans.

In a universal health care scheme, naturally you do not pay out of pocket for preventive or medically necessary care (aside from certain co-pays that may apply) "if you are not insured". There is no "IF". That's the point of universal health care systems - EVERYONE is covered. Hence, it's referred to as UNIVERSAL. It's not that hard to grasp.

[kytwell 179]

In a universal health care scheme, naturally you do not pay out of pocket for preventive or medically necessary care (aside from certain co-pays that may apply) "if you are not insured". There is no "IF". That's the point of universal health care systems - EVERYONE is covered. Hence, it's referred to as UNIVERSAL. It's not that hard to grasp.

Yes okay I do understand the concept. If you do not have the money for the copays, you're still out of luck though. And as I am not aware of how other countries plans are, just based on my wife's country of Greece. Not all care is considered necessary and there are just as many out of pocket costs, as well as having to purchase a supplemental plans, to cover what the gov't deems elective.