Why do you hate liberals and liberalism so much?

[Jenn! 918]

I am not a moral relativist, but rather a value pluralist.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

BTW, it is easier to speak of specifics instead of broad generalizations. What is your definition of a liberal or conservative. What are you and your beliefs and where would that put you in the broad spectrum of things?

when I say "you" I say all of you that are getting all excited.

and don't say what the other is or isn't--because it isn't helpful. What are your beliefs and absolutes?

That could be a thread on it's own. I don't adhere to any rigid ideology - I don't look at some book that says what a liberal is suppose to believe in. I try to follow logic and reason to arrive at my opinions. My sense of morality is also a rooted in logic and reason. I was raised Catholic, but I would never be comfortable to say something is immoral simply because I'm told it is. You better have a logically reason that is convincing in order for me to agree with you on that. I volunteered for a Teen Life program at my local church once and in one of the sessions, the teenagers discussed sin. I was taken back by how many of them couldn't articulate why something was a sin other than saying that because God said so, or the Bible says it is. That to me is dogmatism and in my opinion counter to Christ's message. He kept demonstrating with the Pharisees that simply following rules doesn't cut it. I'm sure to the Pharisees, Jesus was quite the 'Moral Relativist' because He often did things that broke from Jewish law and tradition.

Edited September 26, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[ace13 0]

and do athiests tend to be more liberal or conservative?

and why do "conservatives" "hate" (I think fear is a better term) "liberals" b/c it is a direct attack on absolute Truth.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

and do athiests tend to be more liberal or conservative?

and why do "conservatives" "hate" (I think fear is a better term) "liberals" b/c it is a direct attack on absolute Truth.

Define absolute Truth. What specific Truths do you believe are absolute?

[ace13 0]

BTW, it is easier to speak of specifics instead of broad generalizations. What is your definition of a liberal or conservative. What are you and your beliefs and where would that put you in the broad spectrum of things?

when I say "you" I say all of you that are getting all excited.

and don't say what the other is or isn't--because it isn't helpful. What are your beliefs and absolutes?

That could be a thread on it's own. I don't adhere to any rigid ideology - I don't look at some book that says what a liberal is suppose to believe in. I try to follow logic and reason to arrive at my opinions. My sense of morality is also a rooted in logic and reason. I was raised Catholic, but I would never be comfortable to say something is immoral simply because I'm told it is. You better have a logically reason that is convincing in order for me to agree with you on that. I volunteered for a Teen Life program at my local church once and in one of the sessions, the teenagers discussed sin. I was taken back by how many of them couldn't articulate why something was a sin other than saying that because God said so, or the Bible says it is. That to me is dogmatism and in my opinion counter to Christ's message. He kept demonstrating with the Pharisees that simply following rules doesn't cut it. I'm sure to the Pharisees, Jesus was quite the 'Moral Relativist' because He often did things that broke from Jewish law and tradition.

ahhh, I believe the point is missed. Following WITHOUT believing is the issue. Going by the rules-as you put it-but not believing it to be TRUTH is the issue. Jesus was not a moral relativist again, quite quite the opposite.

[Fuzzness 2]

BTW, it is easier to speak of specifics instead of broad generalizations. What is your definition of a liberal or conservative. What are you and your beliefs and where would that put you in the broad spectrum of things?

when I say "you" I say all of you that are getting all excited.

and don't say what the other is or isn't--because it isn't helpful. What are your beliefs and absolutes?

That could be a thread on it's own. I don't adhere to any rigid ideology - I don't look at some book that says what a liberal is suppose to believe in. I try to follow logic and reason to arrive at my opinions. My sense of morality is also a rooted in logic and reason. I was raised Catholic, but I would never be comfortable to say something is immoral simply because I'm told it is. You better have a logically reason that is convincing in order for me to agree with you on that. I volunteered for a Teen Life program at my local church once and in one of the sessions, the teenagers discussed sin. I was taken back by how many of them couldn't articulate why something was a sin other than saying that because God said so, or the Bible says it is. That to me is dogmatism and in my opinion counter to Christ's message. He kept demonstrating with the Pharisees that simply following rules doesn't cut it. I'm sure to the Pharisees, Jesus was quite the 'Moral Relativist' because He often did things that broke from Jewish law and tradition.

ahhh, I believe the point is missed. Following WITHOUT believing is the issue. Going by the rules-as you put it-but not believing it to be TRUTH is the issue. Jesus was not a moral relativist again, quite quite the opposite.

Jesus also accepted people of different beliefs.

[Jenn! 918]

and do athiests tend to be more liberal or conservative?

and why do "conservatives" "hate" (I think fear is a better term) "liberals" b/c it is a direct attack on absolute Truth.

I suggest you read the article I posted in this thread (post #19). I think you'll find it eye-opening.

[ace13 0]

and do athiests tend to be more liberal or conservative?

and why do "conservatives" "hate" (I think fear is a better term) "liberals" b/c it is a direct attack on absolute Truth.

Define absolute Truth. What specific Truths do you believe are absolute?

I believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth,

of all that is, seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,

eternally begotten of the Father,

God from God, Light from Light,

true God from true God,

begotten, not made,

of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation

he came down from heaven:

by the power of the Holy Spirit

he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,

and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in accordance with the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,

and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,

and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.

THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.

REMEMBER THOU KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH DAY.

HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.

THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE.

THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.

BTW, it is easier to speak of specifics instead of broad generalizations. What is your definition of a liberal or conservative. What are you and your beliefs and where would that put you in the broad spectrum of things?

when I say "you" I say all of you that are getting all excited.

and don't say what the other is or isn't--because it isn't helpful. What are your beliefs and absolutes?

That could be a thread on it's own. I don't adhere to any rigid ideology - I don't look at some book that says what a liberal is suppose to believe in. I try to follow logic and reason to arrive at my opinions. My sense of morality is also a rooted in logic and reason. I was raised Catholic, but I would never be comfortable to say something is immoral simply because I'm told it is. You better have a logically reason that is convincing in order for me to agree with you on that. I volunteered for a Teen Life program at my local church once and in one of the sessions, the teenagers discussed sin. I was taken back by how many of them couldn't articulate why something was a sin other than saying that because God said so, or the Bible says it is. That to me is dogmatism and in my opinion counter to Christ's message. He kept demonstrating with the Pharisees that simply following rules doesn't cut it. I'm sure to the Pharisees, Jesus was quite the 'Moral Relativist' because He often did things that broke from Jewish law and tradition.

ahhh, I believe the point is missed. Following WITHOUT believing is the issue. Going by the rules-as you put it-but not believing it to be TRUTH is the issue. Jesus was not a moral relativist again, quite quite the opposite.

Jesus also accepted people of different beliefs.

Sure, the whole love your neighbor as yourself. But he also said love the sinner, hate the sin...which leads us to believe their were absolute rights/wrongs.

[Fuzzness 2]

that's all well and good for you but don't tell me what to believe.

[ace13 0]

that's all well and good for you but don't tell me what to believe.

I never would. Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. He asked what I believe and I told him. You have to understand, though, that because my beliefs are so strong, I vote and believe in policies based on those beliefs-as I am sure you vote based on yours. To me, they are absolute Truth.

[Fuzzness 2]

that's all well and good for you but don't tell me what to believe.

I never would. Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. He asked what I believe and I told him. You have to understand, though, that because my beliefs are so strong, I vote and believe in policies based on those beliefs-as I am sure you vote based on yours. To me, they are absolute Truth.

I understand. Black and white. Sounds familiar.

[ace13 0]

I could never seperate my beliefs from my career, my politics or any part of my life.

that's all well and good for you but don't tell me what to believe.

I never would. Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. He asked what I believe and I told him. You have to understand, though, that because my beliefs are so strong, I vote and believe in policies based on those beliefs-as I am sure you vote based on yours. To me, they are absolute Truth.

I understand. Black and white. Sounds familiar.

what do you mean, sounds familiar?

and do athiests tend to be more liberal or conservative?

and why do "conservatives" "hate" (I think fear is a better term) "liberals" b/c it is a direct attack on absolute Truth.

I suggest you read the article I posted in this thread (post #19). I think you'll find it eye-opening.

I agree with that. I think the labels are wrong. That is why I asked the direct question on what are a persons own beliefs--not what they think of the label.

[Fuzzness 2]

I could never seperate my beliefs from my career, my politics or any part of my life.

that's all well and good for you but don't tell me what to believe.

I never would. Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. He asked what I believe and I told him. You have to understand, though, that because my beliefs are so strong, I vote and believe in policies based on those beliefs-as I am sure you vote based on yours. To me, they are absolute Truth.

I understand. Black and white. Sounds familiar.

what do you mean, sounds familiar?

the far right likes to use black and white terms. you're either with us or against us. you're either conservative or liberal. you're either christian or anti-christian.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

BTW, it is easier to speak of specifics instead of broad generalizations. What is your definition of a liberal or conservative. What are you and your beliefs and where would that put you in the broad spectrum of things?

when I say "you" I say all of you that are getting all excited.

and don't say what the other is or isn't--because it isn't helpful. What are your beliefs and absolutes?

That could be a thread on it's own. I don't adhere to any rigid ideology - I don't look at some book that says what a liberal is suppose to believe in. I try to follow logic and reason to arrive at my opinions. My sense of morality is also a rooted in logic and reason. I was raised Catholic, but I would never be comfortable to say something is immoral simply because I'm told it is. You better have a logically reason that is convincing in order for me to agree with you on that. I volunteered for a Teen Life program at my local church once and in one of the sessions, the teenagers discussed sin. I was taken back by how many of them couldn't articulate why something was a sin other than saying that because God said so, or the Bible says it is. That to me is dogmatism and in my opinion counter to Christ's message. He kept demonstrating with the Pharisees that simply following rules doesn't cut it. I'm sure to the Pharisees, Jesus was quite the 'Moral Relativist' because He often did things that broke from Jewish law and tradition.

ahhh, I believe the point is missed. Following WITHOUT believing is the issue. Going by the rules-as you put it-but not believing it to be TRUTH is the issue. Jesus was not a moral relativist again, quite quite the opposite.

I was playing with the term - of course I don't believe Jesus was a moral relativist. My point and if you read the Gospels closely you'll see that time and time again, Jesus admonished the Pharisees for following the letter of the law, rather than the heart. He was asked if he would rescue a donkey that has fallen into a ditch on the Sabbath since work is forbidden, and He showed them what jackasses they were to not use reason and logic. I see a great parallel going on today in this country with people who believe they have the moral high ground because they believe they are adhering to their interpretation of biblical morality but in reality, they're as foolish as the Pharisees.

[ace13 0]

I could never seperate my beliefs from my career, my politics or any part of my life.

that's all well and good for you but don't tell me what to believe.

I never would. Your beliefs are yours and yours alone. He asked what I believe and I told him. You have to understand, though, that because my beliefs are so strong, I vote and believe in policies based on those beliefs-as I am sure you vote based on yours. To me, they are absolute Truth.

I understand. Black and white. Sounds familiar.

what do you mean, sounds familiar?

the far right likes to use black and white terms. you're either with us or against us. you're either conservative or liberal. you're either christian or anti-christian.

humourous. did you know historically, religious people have been democratic aka left. Are you labeling me far right labels are so silly. and yes, my beliefs are cut and dry, right/wrong.