VJ member about child's death in Vietnam

[clayr 35]

Vanessa and Tony, My fiance had an appointment letter sent to her by the US consulate on all 3 trips she made to the consulate. Also there's no law about DNA has to be done, that is a judgement call on the CO . FO

[cdneh 3,112]

Vanessa and Tony, My fiance had an appointment letter sent to her by the US consulate on all 3 trips she made to the consulate. Also there's no law about DNA has to be done, that is a judgement call on the CO . FO

"Wife rec'd a letter to come submit to Dna test but was turned away at the window because she didn't have the birth certificate, couple weeks later she showed up at the window with our baby and the birth certificate and was turned away again and told to wait for appointment letter."

The above is your post from September 17. Now she either had a letter or she did not. She either turned up prepared or she did not. And yes, they have complete discretion as far as requiring a DNA test for paternity. Something abut your case made them deem this necessary.

[MalaysianGirl 26]

Ah, all the back and forth. I'm with JimVaPhuong on this one.

To the OP: I am so very sorry for your loss. May your life with your wife in the US be a happy one. All the best for your future.

[newlyweds2010 208]

Also, a 2 month old baby, even a USC, does not travel by herself, but needs to be accompanied. By whom? not the mom, who didn't get her visa. Did her dad go down there to do the trip back with her? When you sue for damages, rule no. 1 states that you gotta demonstrate that you mitigated your damage. This means that if you could have done something - anything - to reduce the damage, then you need to prove that you did. Otherwise you recover damages LESS your amount of fault for not mitigating. A defense attorney would ask: did you (the USC) go down to Vietnam to assist your baby? When it was clear that the visa was far from being issued, did you provide reasonable healthcare to your baby in Vietnam (there are hospitals that treat that disease)? Do you have a health insurance in the US which would have covered your kid's medical expenses? Healthcare is way more expensive in the US than in Vietnam, so if you didn't have, why do you think that accessing the US system was easier than accessing the Vietnam one? Did you go help your fiancee to sort out her situation with the US embassy and expedite the process? etc.

Guys, really, filing a lawsuit is another thing than winning a lawsuit.

[Boiler 45,468]

The child was a Vietnamese Citizen for certain.

No mention of whether the Vietnamese passport had been obtained.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

He hadn't proved the child WAS a US citizen child. The fact is they chose to get her pregnant and I can't help but think that it was a tactic to speed up the process and I think the CO thought that as well. He didn't go the proper route to prove the child a USC, the CRBA would have taken longer than that. he could have flown to collect and protect the child... They are at fault (if any fault should be assigned), not USCIS for doing their job. If they won this the fraud would be insane and it would turn kids back into "anchor" babies "My kids a USC so hurry up with my visa!"

Once again, the visa is not the issue. The child was a US citizen - it would not have been issued a visa, and the CRBA process is totally unrelated to the visa. The child doesn't become a US citizen when the CRBA is approved - it was a US citizen at birth. The CRBA is only a request for the US government to recognize the child's US citizenship and give it a US passport. He's got sufficient evidence that they delayed the approval of the CRBA because they had suspicions about his relationship, but his relationship has nothing whatever to do with the fact that the child was born a US citizen. Even if he'd had sex with a prostitute and got her pregnant, the child would still be a US citizen. The consulate is not supposed to be weighing the validity of the relationship when considering a CRBA application. The OP's fiancee tried three times to submit the DNA evidence the consulate requested and they turned her away. This was apparently a stalling tactic because they were still investigating the relationship. Again, their relationship is irrelevant when considering a CRBA. They shouldn't have used the child as a pawn in evaluating the validity of their relationship.

He has sufficient evidence to accuse the consulate of needlessly keeping a US citizen in Vietnam because they suspected the child's foreign parent of immigration fraud. I believe he has grounds for a civil suit.

[cdneh 3,112]

She tried three times, but she was neither asked to come by appointment, or did she have the correct documentation with her. That is not a stalling tactic, that is a requirement. No one will be admitted without the appointment, no test will be preformed with out the necessary paperwork. She could have gone 3 times, or 30, without being requested to come she would not have been admitted. None of us get to choose the parts of the process we feel like complying with, or get to ignore the ones we don't want to bother with. The procedures are in place and we by necessity have to comply. All of us. They want what they want, and how they want it. There is no shortcut to the head of the line.

No one, repeat NO ONE, at the consulate used this child as a pawn. They would not issue a visa for the Mother because they had suspicions about their relationship. Unless those concerns are dealt with satisfactorily, no visa is issued.

He has evidence of nothing, and his case will fail. I understand the anger, and I certainly understand the frustration and grief. But advising this man and his wife to file a wrongful death suit against the Government is ridiculous in the sublime, and serves no other purpose than to drag the agony out for years.

[Boiler 45,468]

Wonderfully put.

[clayr 35]

CDNEH, evidence of nothing? I have a copy and the envelope of all 3 appointment letters. I told the CO i would pay for a lab in the US to conduct forensic DNA and they declined my offer and issued my fiance a visa. A Dna test is a judgement call in their arsenal not the law. Whatever their suspisions were they were wrong evidenced by the fact they granted my fiance a visa. My question is why did they not allow me the opportunity to answer their questions PRIOR to our baby being born. Does the consulate not read the local newspapers in Vietnam? There are over 80,000 cases of HFM disease in Vietnam with headlines reading "epidemic" Bear in mind you don't know as much about our case as I do.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Once again, the visa is not the issue. The child was a US citizen - it would not have been issued a visa, and the CRBA process is totally unrelated to the visa. The child doesn't become a US citizen when the CRBA is approved - it was a US citizen at birth. The CRBA is only a request for the US government to recognize the child's US citizenship and give it a US passport. He's got sufficient evidence that they delayed the approval of the CRBA because they had suspicions about his relationship, but his relationship has nothing whatever to do with the fact that the child was born a US citizen. Even if he'd had sex with a prostitute and got her pregnant, the child would still be a US citizen. The consulate is not supposed to be weighing the validity of the relationship when considering a CRBA application. The OP's fiancee tried three times to submit the DNA evidence the consulate requested and they turned her away. This was apparently a stalling tactic because they were still investigating the relationship. Again, their relationship is irrelevant when considering a CRBA. They shouldn't have used the child as a pawn in evaluating the validity of their relationship.

He has sufficient evidence to accuse the consulate of needlessly keeping a US citizen in Vietnam because they suspected the child's foreign parent of immigration fraud. I believe he has grounds for a civil suit.

A child is a USC at birth ONLY if PROVEN to be the child of a USC. He hadn't proved yet that the child was his.

If they didn't think their relationship was real, they didn't know the child WAS his, then the child's CRBA is of course affected.

I think there's more to this story, there always is. She wouldn't have been turned away if she had appointment letters, unless those appointment letters were for something else, or she arrived unprepared.

I don't think the child was used as a pawn at all. They could easily have helped prove the relationship using this supposed "pawn" to get the DNA evidence, but they didn't. The parents however have admitted to using the child as a pawn to prove the relationship "arrived at the consulate WITH the baby".

The OP has inappropriately PM'd me and admitted facts that he has not mentioned here (TOS do not allow me to disclose the contents of a PM). Facts that help explain why she was later given a visa. Rather than his suggestions that she should have got the visa PRIOR to the birth if given one later, he admits to actions/happening AFTER the death of the child that later resulted in a visa.

Again, he CHOSE to get his fiancee pregnant in a country where he knew of the epidemic which suggests THEY were using the child as a pawn to gain her visa and are now trying to obtain financial gain from her death.

CDNEH, evidence of nothing? I have a copy and the envelope of all 3 appointment letters. I told the CO i would pay for a lab in the US to conduct forensic DNA and they declined my offer and issued my fiance a visa. A Dna test is a judgement call in their arsenal not the law. Whatever their suspisions were they were wrong evidenced by the fact they granted my fiance a visa. My question is why did they not allow me the opportunity to answer their questions PRIOR to our baby being born. Does the consulate not read the local newspapers in Vietnam? There are over 80,000 cases of HFM disease in Vietnam with headlines reading "epidemic" Bear in mind you don't know as much about our case as I do.

The consulate does NOT need to approve her visa simply because you got her pregnant or because HFM is an epidemic in her country. Again implies you knew that and tried to use the child as a pawn to speed up her visa.

The OP still hasn't mentioned whether any of this is CRBA related, or whether these are simply appointments for her visa so you can't say the consulate delayed the CRBA.

If obtaining DNA for a CRBA is a judgement call, they chose to use it. They didn't believe your relationship.

The bolded section you PROVED your relationship was real. You didn't in the beginning. That's why she eventually got the visa.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Vanessa&Tony

[cdneh 3,112]

CDNEH, evidence of nothing? I have a copy and the envelope of all 3 appointment letters. I told the CO i would pay for a lab in the US to conduct forensic DNA and they declined my offer and issued my fiance a visa. A Dna test is a judgement call in their arsenal not the law. Whatever their suspisions were they were wrong evidenced by the fact they granted my fiance a visa. My question is why did they not allow me the opportunity to answer their questions PRIOR to our baby being born. Does the consulate not read the local newspapers in Vietnam? There are over 80,000 cases of HFM disease in Vietnam with headlines reading "epidemic" Bear in mind you don't know as much about our case as I do.

A judgment call. Yes indeed it certainly is. Quite legally. And once the call was made, the child had to be born there. The test was required to prove paternity.

They had suspicions regarding the validity of your relationship which you later addressed and that is why in the end she finally was granted a visa.

It isn't the responsibility of the consulate to read the local papers, and make visa's available based on what may or may not be read there. There is no right whatsoever to a visa because of that.

You are right in one thing, I do not know as much about your case as you do. NO one here does. All we have is your side of the story, and the other side won't talk. The truth, as it always does, lies somewhere in the middle.

Again I am sorry for your loss. I understand that. I also understand the overwhelming urge to lay blame, somewhere, anywhere.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

You guys are completely missing the point. This has nothing to do with a discretionary visa, and everything to do with the death of a US citizen child. The OP can pull out all kinds of statistics to show that the mortality rate for children in Vietnam is much higher than in the US, and that the disease with which the child was stricken could have been easily treated in the US, but that treatment is much more difficult to obtain in Vietnam. The only thing keeping that child from being able to come to the United States was the bureaucratic stalling of the US consulate in Saigon.

If he filed a civil suit in California then I'm almost certain the OP would win. However, from comments the OP has made to me it appears what he'd really like to do is change policy and/or law. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that would be much more difficult to accomplish.

Can you blame him? My heart breaks for him.

[Rebecca Jo 1,962]

She tried three times, but she was neither asked to come by appointment, or did she have the correct documentation with her. That is not a stalling tactic, that is a requirement. No one will be admitted without the appointment, no test will be preformed with out the necessary paperwork. She could have gone 3 times, or 30, without being requested to come she would not have been admitted. None of us get to choose the parts of the process we feel like complying with, or get to ignore the ones we don't want to bother with. The procedures are in place and we by necessity have to comply. All of us. They want what they want, and how they want it. There is no shortcut to the head of the line.

No one, repeat NO ONE, at the consulate used this child as a pawn. They would not issue a visa for the Mother because they had suspicions about their relationship. Unless those concerns are dealt with satisfactorily, no visa is issued.

He has evidence of nothing, and his case will fail. I understand the anger, and I certainly understand the frustration and grief. But advising this man and his wife to file a wrongful death suit against the Government is ridiculous in the sublime, and serves no other purpose than to drag the agony out for years.

I don't know where you get that idea.

[cdneh 3,112]

Can you blame him? My heart breaks for him.

I agree it is a very sad thing. But the consulate is not at fault here.

I don't know where you get that idea.

It's quite clear to me. The requirements necessary to obtain a visa, both times, were not met. That is not the fault of the consulate.

[SuperDuper! 230]

No matter what country my child is in, If he were sick, I would admit him immediately to the FINEST hospital in the land, no matter what the cost or how much overtime I would have to work.

I would NOT wait around for the consulate to decide my child's life or death fate if he's ill.

Peace.