VJ member about child's death in Vietnam

[HopeFaithLove 13]

I feel the pain for the loss of your child. It is really hard, but God for sure has a good reason. You may not know it now, but you will find it later. Hope you both stay stronger than ever. I will keep you both in my prayers.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

She would have been granted the visa the first time, or the second, if she had qualified for one. As she failed in some area of the requirements to do so, what reason was given for the denial? If you are unsure, file a FOIA and find out.

They require the DNA test to confirm paternity without doubt, as no Embassy anywhere accepts on face value a declaration of paternity. It has to be proven, by the test. Positive paternity test results in American Citizenship, and this is not handed out lightly.

She wasn't turned away for 'whatever reason'. In earlier posts you stated one one occasion she did not have the birth certificate, on another occasion no appointment letter. It is impossible to just go to the Embassy and be admitted without a letter of appointment. It doesn't matter the test you paid for was there, it doesn't matter how long the test would have taken. If she was not sent an appointment letter to come and have the test performed she would not have been admitted. If she wasn't prepared with the documents required, she would be sent away to get those, and advised when to return when the schedule permitted.

I suggest that she was successful in September because whatever the issue was that prevented the visa being issued in the first instance was addressed and supported with further evidence.

They are doing their jobs. The Government want what they want, in the order they want it, and in the format they want it. There are no exceptions, the same rules apply to us all. We may not like their rules, but in the end we all have to comply.

I understand you are angry and upset. I know from first hand experience how it feels to lose a child. However I also understand that while this is a very sad thing, it is not the fault of the consulate. I am sorry for your loss.

A DNA test is not mandatory. The law requires "a blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence". At many consulates, they will approve a Consular Report of Birth Abroad if the petitioner and beneficiary both appear for the CRBA interview, the birth certificate lists both petitioner and beneficiary as the biological parents of the child, and the petitioner signs a statement of paternity. I know a few people who've had their child's CRBA approved at the consulate in Saigon without a DNA test. When they ask for a DNA test it's either because they have some doubt that the petitioner is the father, or they're just jerking the couple around because the CO believes the relationship is a sham.

No consulate will issue a visa to a child who has a claim to US citizenship, and most consulates won't issue a visa to the foreign parent of that child until the child's claim to citizenship has been processed. The consulate in Saigon delayed processing his daughter's CRBA because they were exercising their authority to be a$$holes. However, I wouldn't hold them responsible for the child's death. Clay's daughter got a disease that's often deadly in Vietnam because they lack modern medical care, unless you happen to be wealthy and can afford the French hospitals. It's tragic, and I understand completely how Clay feels, but I don't think it's the consulate's fault. To me, if you assign guilt to someone then that implies that the outcome would have been different if that someone didn't exist. Would the outcome have been different if the US consulate didn't exist? The answer is no.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have grounds for a lawsuit, though...

With knowledge that the medical conditions are so poor in VN, why did you elect to get your fiancée before she received her visa to come here? VN was a tragedy for many of us, VA hospitals are loaded with vets with permanent damage. We on this board all had to wait to bring our love ones here, getting both proof that my wife's daughter was hers, and permission to bring her here darn near added a year to our waiting. We all have to wait, none of us received special treatment.

Hospital working wife and my doctor kids are constantly exposed to infantile death, not suppose to get emotional, but my wife is still upset about last Monday. Much of it can be contributed to genetics and prenatal care. In ICU, great efforts are taking to keep these babies alive, but just doctors, not miracle workers. Deaths are related to the lack of care some of these babies experience. No accusations here on your baby.

Sorry for your experience, but also feel you brought this disaster upon yourself. And our relationship with VN is still not the best.

You do understand that half of the Vietnamese people were on OUR side during the war, right? Those people remember what America tried to do for them, and they appreciate it. Every time I've been to Vietnam they always expected me to pick up the tab because I was the "rich American". The only time I saw the tables turned was when they discovered one of the Americans in our group was a veteran of the war. They took up a collection from the Viets at the table to pay for his food and beer.

I also think it's appalling that you would suggest that the consulate might be treating Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because of some perceived lingering animosity between the US government and the Vietnamese government. Relations with the government of Vietnam have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. There's even talk of military aid because the US sides with Vietnam in their current dispute with China over the Paracel islands and territorial waters in the South China Sea. The point is that any consulate should not hold it against the people of any country if there's a current or past dispute between the US government and the government of that country. I never got the impression that the US consulate in Saigon was doing this.

The consulate treats Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because:

1. They can.

2. There's a lot of visa fraud in Vietnam.

3. Some CO's are very unhappy about being assigned to a dirt poor country that's hot, wet, and too close to the equator.

[joonphon 7]

so sorry for your loss

[Y & Y 0]

http://www.carolinalive.com/news/story.aspx?id=681900 I hope to bring attention to the news about how the US govt contributed to the death of my baby. These consular officers should pay for their mistake.

I am so sorry to hear that. I watched the news. We say that is stupid bureaucratism.

I can imagine how they did do.

It's bureaucratic red tape. I hope you have a victory to the action by family law of USA.

US Family Law will take side with you.

[Y & Y 0]

I am so sorry to hear that. I watched the news. We say that is stupid bureaucratism.

I can imagine how they did do.

It's bureaucratic red tape. I hope you have a victory to the action by family law of USA.

US Family Law will take side with you.

[Rufus2012 175]

Sorry for your loss.

[TeapotGirl 66]

A DNA test is not mandatory. The law requires "a blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence". At many consulates, they will approve a Consular Report of Birth Abroad if the petitioner and beneficiary both appear for the CRBA interview, the birth certificate lists both petitioner and beneficiary as the biological parents of the child, and the petitioner signs a statement of paternity. I know a few people who've had their child's CRBA approved at the consulate in Saigon without a DNA test. When they ask for a DNA test it's either because they have some doubt that the petitioner is the father, or they're just jerking the couple around because the CO believes the relationship is a sham.

No consulate will issue a visa to a child who has a claim to US citizenship, and most consulates won't issue a visa to the foreign parent of that child until the child's claim to citizenship has been processed. The consulate in Saigon delayed processing his daughter's CRBA because they were exercising their authority to be a$$holes. However, I wouldn't hold them responsible for the child's death. Clay's daughter got a disease that's often deadly in Vietnam because they lack modern medical care, unless you happen to be wealthy and can afford the French hospitals. It's tragic, and I understand completely how Clay feels, but I don't think it's the consulate's fault. To me, if you assign guilt to someone then that implies that the outcome would have been different if that someone didn't exist. Would the outcome have been different if the US consulate didn't exist? The answer is no.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have grounds for a lawsuit, though...

You do understand that half of the Vietnamese people were on OUR side during the war, right? Those people remember what America tried to do for them, and they appreciate it. Every time I've been to Vietnam they always expected me to pick up the tab because I was the "rich American". The only time I saw the tables turned was when they discovered one of the Americans in our group was a veteran of the war. They took up a collection from the Viets at the table to pay for his food and beer.

I also think it's appalling that you would suggest that the consulate might be treating Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because of some perceived lingering animosity between the US government and the Vietnamese government. Relations with the government of Vietnam have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. There's even talk of military aid because the US sides with Vietnam in their current dispute with China over the Paracel islands and territorial waters in the South China Sea. The point is that any consulate should not hold it against the people of any country if there's a current or past dispute between the US government and the government of that country. I never got the impression that the US consulate in Saigon was doing this.

The consulate treats Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because:

1. They can.

2. There's a lot of visa fraud in Vietnam.

3. Some CO's are very unhappy about being assigned to a dirt poor country that's hot, wet, and too close to the equator.

Well said JimVaPhuong! As always....

[William33 110]

I offer my sincere condolences on your loss. That said, Jim is always "spot on" with his advice. You should seriously consider "all" of his advice going forward.

A DNA test is not mandatory. The law requires "a blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence". At many consulates, they will approve a Consular Report of Birth Abroad if the petitioner and beneficiary both appear for the CRBA interview, the birth certificate lists both petitioner and beneficiary as the biological parents of the child, and the petitioner signs a statement of paternity. I know a few people who've had their child's CRBA approved at the consulate in Saigon without a DNA test. When they ask for a DNA test it's either because they have some doubt that the petitioner is the father, or they're just jerking the couple around because the CO believes the relationship is a sham.

No consulate will issue a visa to a child who has a claim to US citizenship, and most consulates won't issue a visa to the foreign parent of that child until the child's claim to citizenship has been processed. The consulate in Saigon delayed processing his daughter's CRBA because they were exercising their authority to be a$$holes. However, I wouldn't hold them responsible for the child's death. Clay's daughter got a disease that's often deadly in Vietnam because they lack modern medical care, unless you happen to be wealthy and can afford the French hospitals. It's tragic, and I understand completely how Clay feels, but I don't think it's the consulate's fault. To me, if you assign guilt to someone then that implies that the outcome would have been different if that someone didn't exist. Would the outcome have been different if the US consulate didn't exist? The answer is no.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have grounds for a lawsuit, though...

You do understand that half of the Vietnamese people were on OUR side during the war, right? Those people remember what America tried to do for them, and they appreciate it. Every time I've been to Vietnam they always expected me to pick up the tab because I was the "rich American". The only time I saw the tables turned was when they discovered one of the Americans in our group was a veteran of the war. They took up a collection from the Viets at the table to pay for his food and beer.

I also think it's appalling that you would suggest that the consulate might be treating Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because of some perceived lingering animosity between the US government and the Vietnamese government. Relations with the government of Vietnam have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. There's even talk of military aid because the US sides with Vietnam in their current dispute with China over the Paracel islands and territorial waters in the South China Sea. The point is that any consulate should not hold it against the people of any country if there's a current or past dispute between the US government and the government of that country. I never got the impression that the US consulate in Saigon was doing this.

The consulate treats Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because:

1. They can.

2. There's a lot of visa fraud in Vietnam.

3. Some CO's are very unhappy about being assigned to a dirt poor country that's hot, wet, and too close to the equator.

[newlyweds2010 208]

A DNA test is not mandatory. The law requires "a blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence". At many consulates, they will approve a Consular Report of Birth Abroad if the petitioner and beneficiary both appear for the CRBA interview, the birth certificate lists both petitioner and beneficiary as the biological parents of the child, and the petitioner signs a statement of paternity. I know a few people who've had their child's CRBA approved at the consulate in Saigon without a DNA test. When they ask for a DNA test it's either because they have some doubt that the petitioner is the father, or they're just jerking the couple around because the CO believes the relationship is a sham.

No consulate will issue a visa to a child who has a claim to US citizenship, and most consulates won't issue a visa to the foreign parent of that child until the child's claim to citizenship has been processed. The consulate in Saigon delayed processing his daughter's CRBA because they were exercising their authority to be a$$holes. However, I wouldn't hold them responsible for the child's death. Clay's daughter got a disease that's often deadly in Vietnam because they lack modern medical care, unless you happen to be wealthy and can afford the French hospitals. It's tragic, and I understand completely how Clay feels, but I don't think it's the consulate's fault. To me, if you assign guilt to someone then that implies that the outcome would have been different if that someone didn't exist. Would the outcome have been different if the US consulate didn't exist? The answer is no.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have grounds for a lawsuit, though...

You do understand that half of the Vietnamese people were on OUR side during the war, right? Those people remember what America tried to do for them, and they appreciate it. Every time I've been to Vietnam they always expected me to pick up the tab because I was the "rich American". The only time I saw the tables turned was when they discovered one of the Americans in our group was a veteran of the war. They took up a collection from the Viets at the table to pay for his food and beer.

I also think it's appalling that you would suggest that the consulate might be treating Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because of some perceived lingering animosity between the US government and the Vietnamese government. Relations with the government of Vietnam have improved dramatically in the past 20 years. There's even talk of military aid because the US sides with Vietnam in their current dispute with China over the Paracel islands and territorial waters in the South China Sea. The point is that any consulate should not hold it against the people of any country if there's a current or past dispute between the US government and the government of that country. I never got the impression that the US consulate in Saigon was doing this.

The consulate treats Vietnamese visa applicants like ####### because:

1. They can.

2. There's a lot of visa fraud in Vietnam.

3. Some CO's are very unhappy about being assigned to a dirt poor country that's hot, wet, and too close to the equator.

If you don't hold them responsible for the child's death, then what would be the grounds for the lawsuit? Everybody can sue anybody for any reason or no reason, and you can't prevent somebody from suing you. But then once you get your day in court, you'll see first hand whether your claims are genuine. And on top of that you will also pay your lawyer. Isn't it a sort of mantra on VJ that a foreigner has no right to get a visa, but he or she only receives a privilege? Well, the difference lies right there, that a right is something nobody can take away from you, while a privilege is something you may or may not have. While I understand his pain (actually no, I can't understand because I'm not a father and only a father who loses his child knows what it's like), as some other VJ members said, you can't just walk into a US embassy without a letter of invitation. The fact that the child was sick and eventually died should not be a reason to grant a visa, absent the other requirements. more than likely there was something missing or wrong or suspicious, if the consular officers made her go back several times before granting her a visa. It may even be that the consular officers acted in an a$$hole-like fashion, but from what I've read on VJ, Vietnam is a high fraud visa place.

[Ban Hammer 13,474]

one post (and one quoting that post) removed per op request, one unnecessary off topic post removed also.

Edited November 5, 2011 by charles!

[Girl from Celebes 588]

I am sorry to hear your loss. My heart goes to your lovely baby. I know how government work, my fiance working for federal government and nobody is perfect. The government rules is not flawless.

If the CO well trained all over the world, then why some people could lied for asylum and enter USA safely? Just go read Dominique Strauss Kahn case that the hotel maid accused him for rape.

Regardless whether the rape was true or not ,my main concern that not all COs can do their job very well when it turned out the maid lied about her asylum. Like I said, nobody is perfect.

I wish when government training CO's, they have to including intuition lesson to catch the truth. There is something just not about legal papers, for God's sake. They've asked proof of love like asking whether sky is really blue or can you see the air while you breathing in?

[mapletree 33]

These consular officers should pay for their mistake.

I am sorry for your loss, but no one thing or person caused this.

I would seek grief counseling. There is no vengeance in this.

You need to move forward and if you are looking for someone to blame, you will likely always be looking back.

[cdneh 3,112]

If you don't hold them responsible for the child's death, then what would be the grounds for the lawsuit? Everybody can sue anybody for any reason or no reason, and you can't prevent somebody from suing you. But then once you get your day in court, you'll see first hand whether your claims are genuine. And on top of that you will also pay your lawyer. Isn't it a sort of mantra on VJ that a foreigner has no right to get a visa, but he or she only receives a privilege? Well, the difference lies right there, that a right is something nobody can take away from you, while a privilege is something you may or may not have. While I understand his pain (actually no, I can't understand because I'm not a father and only a father who loses his child knows what it's like), as some other VJ members said, you can't just walk into a US embassy without a letter of invitation. The fact that the child was sick and eventually died should not be a reason to grant a visa, absent the other requirements. more than likely there was something missing or wrong or suspicious, if the consular officers made her go back several times before granting her a visa. It may even be that the consular officers acted in an a$$hole-like fashion, but from what I've read on VJ, Vietnam is a high fraud visa place.

None. There are no grounds. We can cast aspersions on the actions of either side in this sad tale, but it doesn't make them true, it doesn't put things right, and in the end only prolongs the healing.

Edited November 5, 2011 by cdneh

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

If you don't hold them responsible for the child's death, then what would be the grounds for the lawsuit? Everybody can sue anybody for any reason or no reason, and you can't prevent somebody from suing you. But then once you get your day in court, you'll see first hand whether your claims are genuine. And on top of that you will also pay your lawyer. Isn't it a sort of mantra on VJ that a foreigner has no right to get a visa, but he or she only receives a privilege? Well, the difference lies right there, that a right is something nobody can take away from you, while a privilege is something you may or may not have. While I understand his pain (actually no, I can't understand because I'm not a father and only a father who loses his child knows what it's like), as some other VJ members said, you can't just walk into a US embassy without a letter of invitation. The fact that the child was sick and eventually died should not be a reason to grant a visa, absent the other requirements. more than likely there was something missing or wrong or suspicious, if the consular officers made her go back several times before granting her a visa. It may even be that the consular officers acted in an a$$hole-like fashion, but from what I've read on VJ, Vietnam is a high fraud visa place.

He wouldn't have to prove that they were wholly responsible. He'd only have to prove that it's more likely than not that their actions or inaction contributed to his daughter's death. Even if the jury assigned only 1% responsibility to the consulate he would still be due compensation.

I'll give you an example.

On Memorial day of this year, Raymond Zack waded into the San Francisco bay off of Alameda until he was chest deep in the water. Raymond Zack intended to commit suicide by drowning, and within an hour he was floating face-down in the water. Who is responsible for Raymond Zack's death? Obviously, it would seem that Raymond Zack is responsible, but there's more...

Alameda police officers and firefighters WATCHED as Raymond Zack stood in the frigid waters of the bay, but did not attempt to rescue him. Why? Because they were not trained in land/water rescue operations, and they didn't have a boat (remember - the water was only chest deep). They called the Coast Guard, who arrived within 20 minutes, but because of the shallow water they weren't able to get close enough to attempt a rescue. The Coast Guard, in turn, called for a helicopter to come to their aid. Eventually, a nurse who was trained in water rescue went into the water and pulled Mr. Zack to shore, but they were unable to revive him.

The family has filed a lawsuit against the Alameda police and fire departments.

[cdneh 3,112]

Apples an oranges. As in comparing.