Dispatch: Israel and Hamas Set a Precedent with Gilad Shalit Deal

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

  On 10/20/2011 at 12:47 AM, scandal said:

Yes, to me, that contrast sums up my feelings adequately. Clearly you feel differently.

I feel, as do most Israelis, a sense of relief and joy that Gilad is home, and a sense of fear and trepidation that the people just released will do us more harm. At the moment of his homecoming, we are singing songs of peace. That is the sentiment in our hearts.

Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are also feeling relief and joy at the return of their loved ones, which is understandable. What is not understandable is their outspoken desire to kill Israelis in further terrorist attacks, and to wish the experience Gilad suffered on further kidnapped soldiers. What kind of people wish that death and kidnapping upon others? Why not enjoy the moment of family reunification as an opportunity for peace rather than more warfare and terror? I'm saddened by that response, but not really surprised.

Do what? Sing songs calling for the kidnapping and murder of Palestinians? Please let me know when we burst into spontaneous cheers calling for that. I've yet to hear one.

You completely ignore the angry response from a significant sector of the Israeli public who are very unhappy with the release, including an actual advertisement for a hitman to carry out a murder-for-hire plot - yet you attempt to characterize the entire Palestinian population as wanting to "kill Israelis."

Fail.

  On 10/20/2011 at 12:52 AM, scandal said:

What kind of person tells children that she hopes they grow up to commit suicide and to kill other people?

What kind of parents let their children listen to such instruction?

I know if a crazy woman came up to my kids and told them "I wish to see you grow up and put a bomb on your belt and go over there and blow yourself up and kill as many of those people as you can", that I would (a) get my kids as far away from her as I could (b) call 911 and have that crazy person arrested.

She wants to study psychology, apparently. Psychology of what? The insanity of people who are simultaneously suicidal and homicidal? She can make herself her own case study.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/freed-female-palestinian-terrorist-to-gaza-children-i-hope-you-will-become-martyrs-1.391014

What kind of person tries to hire a hit man?

[scandal 951]

  On 10/20/2011 at 1:01 AM, wife_of_mahmoud said:

You completely ignore the angry response from a significant sector of the Israeli public who are very unhappy with the release, including an actual advertisement for a hitman to carry out a murder-for-hire plot - yet you attempt to characterize the entire Palestinian population as wanting to "kill Israelis."

Fail.

What kind of person tries to hire a hit man?

I'm not ignoring these things.

Regarding the angry response, yes, it exists and is understandable. Families who lost loved ones are angry that the murderers are being set free. Of course they are angry. Note what they had been saying: that they were against the release of these convicted murderers. Not a call for killing or kidnapping people. And what did they do? Protest, petition the courts prior to the release, make their case to the media.

Regarding the Maariv article regarding the family of Shlomo Libman. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I hadn't seen that previously. Shlomo was murdered 13 years ago, his killers were now set free - one to Gaza, the other to Turkey. My heart goes out to his family, it's hard to imagine the anguish they must be feeling. Having said that I agree with you that taking the law into your own hands, vigilante action, is not how people should behave and not something a society can condone. I don't support or agree with what the family has done (they have apparently published a poster in English, Hebrew and Arabic putting a $100,000 bounty on the heads of the freed killers). I think it's inappropriate and wrong, though given the anguished state of the family I'm surmising this is not a rational act on their part. As for the official response to this matter, the article does not mention any. So it's impossible to know whether police or other official action will be taken to counter it. It's also not possible to know how credible the bounty is, and I would expect an official response to be proportional to that. If they really have the money and are willing to pay for murder-for-hire, yes, I absolutely expect authorities to step in and thwart that, and would decry any official tolerance of obvious lawlessness.

So, how's that?

I decry and condemn lawlessness if and when it is practiced by Israelis, regardless of their motivations. I condemn vigilante actions. I condemn official sanction for vigilante action.

Now, how about you?

Do you condemn the statements and actions of a woman just released from prison who tried to commit a suicide bombing, who is inciting children to follow her example? Would you let your own family members listen to such a person and be influenced by her?

Would you not want such a dangerous individual kept away from impressionable children before she can cause them serious harm? Are you not amazed that she is encouraged and cheered in her efforts, by the families of these very children no less? Can you imagine such a scene taking place anywhere else in the world, here in the USA for example?

In short, I'm of the belief that two wrongs never make a right. It's wrong for the Libman family to order a murder for hire. And it's wrong for Wafa al-Biss to solicit children into criminal activities.

You appear to be in the two wrongs make a right camp. Because the Libmans do what they do, therefore there's no need to condemn al-Biss's words and actions for the outrageous things they are.

Now, what was that "fail" thing?

[Ban Hammer 13,740]

one bait post removed.

please do not turn this into a religious slagging match.

Edited October 20, 2011 by charles!

[mawilson 2,133]

  On 10/20/2011 at 12:21 AM, wife_of_mahmoud said:

Looks like they prefer to outsource the job. Here's your chance to make 100K, tough guy:

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/296/867.html?hp=1&cat=402&loc=3

(In most countries, advertising to hire a hitman will get you arrested - even when the target of the murder plot is "only" someone your own government released from jail.)

Love it!

  On 10/20/2011 at 12:23 AM, wife_of_mahmoud said:

The topic is about Israel negotiating with Hamas, not other groups.

Is that so? I say this topic is about whatever we choose to discuss here, including negotiating with other groups, if that's what people want to discuss.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

  On 10/20/2011 at 2:01 AM, scandal said:

I'm not ignoring these things.

Regarding the angry response, yes, it exists and is understandable. Families who lost loved ones are angry that the murderers are being set free. Of course they are angry. Note what they had been saying: that they were against the release of these convicted murderers. Not a call for killing or kidnapping people. And what did they do? Protest, petition the courts prior to the release, make their case to the media.

Regarding the Maariv article regarding the family of Shlomo Libman. Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I hadn't seen that previously. Shlomo was murdered 13 years ago, his killers were now set free - one to Gaza, the other to Turkey. My heart goes out to his family, it's hard to imagine the anguish they must be feeling. Having said that I agree with you that taking the law into your own hands, vigilante action, is not how people should behave and not something a society can condone. I don't support or agree with what the family has done (they have apparently published a poster in English, Hebrew and Arabic putting a $100,000 bounty on the heads of the freed killers). I think it's inappropriate and wrong, though given the anguished state of the family I'm surmising this is not a rational act on their part. As for the official response to this matter, the article does not mention any. So it's impossible to know whether police or other official action will be taken to counter it. It's also not possible to know how credible the bounty is, and I would expect an official response to be proportional to that. If they really have the money and are willing to pay for murder-for-hire, yes, I absolutely expect authorities to step in and thwart that, and would decry any official tolerance of obvious lawlessness.

So, how's that?

I decry and condemn lawlessness if and when it is practiced by Israelis, regardless of their motivations. I condemn vigilante actions. I condemn official sanction for vigilante action.

Now, how about you?

Do you condemn the statements and actions of a woman just released from prison who tried to commit a suicide bombing, who is inciting children to follow her example? Would you let your own family members listen to such a person and be influenced by her?

Would you not want such a dangerous individual kept away from impressionable children before she can cause them serious harm? Are you not amazed that she is encouraged and cheered in her efforts, by the families of these very children no less? Can you imagine such a scene taking place anywhere else in the world, here in the USA for example?

In short, I'm of the belief that two wrongs never make a right. It's wrong for the Libman family to order a murder for hire. And it's wrong for Wafa al-Biss to solicit children into criminal activities.

You appear to be in the two wrongs make a right camp. Because the Libmans do what they do, therefore there's no need to condemn al-Biss's words and actions for the outrageous things they are.

Now, what was that "fail" thing?

So... angry responses from Israelis are “understandable,” and advertising for a hit man is “inappropriate.” But angry responses from Palestinians are “incitement” and “dangerous.” LOL.

Look dude - I’m not a proponent of suicide bombing. But I don’t see why targeting military personnel in this way is essentially any more reprehensible than dropping missiles on them from the air or shooting at them from tanks, despite knowing the “collateral damage” in civilian casualties that will result. And I really don’t see how suicide bombings are any more outrageous than the 6 decades of terror and ethnic cleansing that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinians. What did you expect - that they would use their F-16s and Apache helicopters and bunker busters that they get courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer ? You work with what you have.

Anyway, you say your “heart goes out” to this Israeli family who is openly trying to hire a hitman to murder Palestinians that their own Israeli government decided to release - you say you understand their anger. Then you go on to talk about the importance of “proportionality” in any official response to the case. (This is pretty rich considering the utter lack of proportionality in most Israel actions against the Palestinian people - or the Lebanese, for that matter - whether accused or not.)

But you need to scratch the surface a little. Shlomo Libman was an illegal settler living in the West Bank. He was killed (shot to death BTW, not targeted by a suicide bomber) while doing “security patrols” outside Yitzhar - an illegal settlement built on confiscated Palestinian land deep in the West Bank near Nablus, home to some of the most extremist Israeli settlers who follow an ideology similar to that of Baruch Goldstein. Yitzhar even runs a little “college” which teaches Jewish teenagers how to terrorize the local Palestinians by vandalizing their homes, torching their fields, desecrating their mosques, etc.

Several members of the Libman family are well-known extremist criminals. The family arrived in occupied Hebron in the 1980s. Shlomo’s father, the Rabbi Menahem Libman, was a leading figure in the establishment of Yitzhar and the movement to establish various other illegal “outposts“ on Palestinian land across the West Bank. Shlomo’s brother David is a terrorist who was involved in the murders of three Palestinians (including a baby) near Hebron in 2001. David was even arrested in 2003 by Shin Bet for planning other attacks on Palestinians, but released.

You say it’s understandable that this family is pissed off. But you still don’t seem to have any clue as to why some Palestinians might be pissed off - even enough to encourage their people to continue resisting Israeli occupation, or to want revenge for their own losses.

Now as for al-Biss - I don’t see where she told any kids to become “suicide bombers” per se. According to the quote in Ynet, she said, “I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs.”

By “we,” she refers to the released prisoners - and very, very few of them were reportedly attempted suicide bombers.

The “path” she‘s talking about is resistance to the occupation, and that can take many forms. In Palestinian parlance, “martyrdom” means dying in the struggle for the liberation of one’s people - martyrs include those murdered by IDF soldiers while participating in non-violent protests against the occupation, or school kids murdered by IDF soldiers while on their way to school. Every Palestinian who is killed at the hands of Israeli soldiers or settlers is considered a martyr (and most of these victims never even took up arms against Israelis.)

al-Biss is certainly encouraging them to continue resisting. But Ynet’s headline screaming that she was specifically encouraging them to “take up terror” was their own embellishment.

Anyway, plenty of Israeli parents encourage their children to "do their duty" in continuing to enforce and enable the occupation as members of the IDF - even while fully aware of its illegality, its brutality, and the injustice it inflicts on Palestinians.

IDF soldiers who die in the line of duty are lionized as heroes. IDF veterans often speak to groups of young Israelis to help indoctrinate them into the “Little Sparta” mentality.

And there are a significant number of Israelis who actively encourage taking the law in their own hands to attack Palestinian civilians and their property - “price tag” isn’t just something you see at the store.

However, you think it’s different if Palestinians do this. That’s your “fail."

If Israel wasn’t continuing to conduct and expand its violent and illegal occupation and colonization of the Palestinians, it might have a reasonable beef.

But Zionism requires living in a bubble of denial of reality.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

  On 10/20/2011 at 12:06 PM, mawilson said:

I say this topic is about whatever we choose to discuss here, including negotiating with other groups, if that's what people want to discuss.

I never said you can't go off-topic, so don't get your knickers in a twist. I simply pointed out that the example given by Sriniv did not pertain to the topic as presented in the OP video, which specifically states that the Gilad Shalit deal set a precedent between Israel and Hamas.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

  On 10/20/2011 at 12:47 AM, scandal said:

Do what? Sing songs calling for the kidnapping and murder of Palestinians? Please let me know when we burst into spontaneous cheers calling for that. I've yet to hear one.

You mean like this:

Israelis watch the Cast Lead assault from a hill just outside Gaza, singing and dancing in celebration, January 2009