Teen uses "assault weapon" to shoot home invaders

[Captain Oates 911]

Murders with firearms

UK 14

USA 9369

The USA murders with firearms rate is 668 times that of the UK

and ranked FIRST

Of course snooker cue murders are excluded

Crime statistics

Edited November 22, 2011 by Ashud Cocoa

[slim 1,530]

Point is that if the robber is shot and you go through a year of witness calls and investigations, then you are made a victim in that you will be having a really hard time

Not always.

In my county we have a pretty good prosecutor. If someone tries to steal your wallet and you shoot them they're not seen as the victim. They're seen as a criminal and prosecuted as such. What you're talking about does happen, but it's important to note that someone who shoots an attacker is never in the wrong.

The moment we stop doing right because it's "easier" to let people get away with wrongdoing, the moral fabric of our country starts to erode. With great freedom there truly is great responsibility.

Saying to the guy "take it and good luck" involves a call to the cops, an insurance claim - finish

It also involves a drop in your property value, the safety of your friends, family and neighbors, and the willingness to allow criminals a safe place to conduct their business.

[Captain Oates 911]

I think it's valid and in a way commendable for you to want to strike a blow for law and order - very much in the style of the lone ranger who led the fight for law and order in the early west

..and the fact that you are willing to shoulder all the inconvenience that goes with it is a form of service to the community

So that's fair enough

My feeling is that many people who buy guns for protection, do not know and do not understand, and would not accept what happens after a gunfight - win or lose

You do - so that's good.

I have had the experience as a civilian of catching burglars - disarming them of a hypodermic used as a weapon. Chasing a car load of thieves on my own and almost naked and attacking their car with a rolling pin. So I have done my share of public spirited acts in a gun free environment.

...the aftermath is a real pain and goes on and on - so I am wary of being in an area where it is more likely. That way I don't have to decide

[slim 1,530]

My feeling is that many people who buy guns for protection, do not know and do not understand, and would not accept what happens after a gunfight - win or lose

Many people think simply buying a gun means they're "protected" from crime. Much in the same way, many people who take an 8-hr. course on concealed carry believe they're ready for a gun fight.

You know as well as I do, that's not the case.

However, I don't think we should disarm those people just because they're not properly trained. I'd much rather have an armed society of "good people" with no training as opposed to an unarmed society of "good people" who cannot get the training they need because they now cannot possess the firearms that would enable them to defend themselves had they the proper training.

Basically, we're doing it backwards. Instead of having restrictive gun laws, we should have mandatory training for every American. We have no problems teaching kids to write and spell (1st Amendment freedoms) why do we have a problem with teaching them to shoot?

Marksmanship and firearms ownership has always been a part of what made people living in these colonies "Americans."

[Captain Oates 911]

Many people think simply buying a gun means they're "protected" from crime. Much in the same way, many people who take an 8-hr. course on concealed carry believe they're ready for a gun fight.

You know as well as I do, that's not the case.

However, I don't think we should disarm those people just because they're not properly trained. I'd much rather have an armed society of "good people" with no training as opposed to an unarmed society of "good people" who cannot get the training they need because they now cannot possess the firearms that would enable them to defend themselves had they the proper training.

Basically, we're doing it backwards. Instead of having restrictive gun laws, we should have mandatory training for every American. We have no problems teaching kids to write and spell (1st Amendment freedoms) why do we have a problem with teaching them to shoot?

Marksmanship and firearms ownership has always been a part of what made people living in these colonies "Americans."

Well we almost agree on something there - you want ALL Americans trained but that's too near the compulsory health care mandate for the Ron Pauls.

I saw a poor old guy in his late 80's and the telly had scared him into buying a Ruger LCP - he tried to fire it but his hands were not strong enough - he turned it round and looked into the barrel and said to me "why won't it fire". Jim got hold of his hand quickly.

Yes training should be compulsory for buyers at least and the only way to net them all is to put all sales through the gunshop and/or have a registration program for transfers. Don't worry about the government - you aren't going to win a shoot out with those guys anyway. They bring truck loads of machine guns up to my range and they aren't standing for any nonsense.

I shouldn't be able buy guns for cash in car parks like I do

We had a guy at the club try to kill himself. He put the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Blew the side of his face off and now he can sort of talk after a years plastic surgery. I mean, if you cant hit your own brain with your own hand gun then you probably haven't got one (a brain)

Another member shot himself in the leg trying to rack his glock

The guy in the gun shop left a loaded gun on the counter and a customer picked it up and blew his finger off - three weeks ago

Strangely enough the women get through from birth to old age without walking round looking like the terminator loaded down on his way back from a gun show

..but anyway you know what I think, the more that people can be trained and the bad things avoided by proper registration to facilitate training, the less will be the pressure to have serious restrictions on gun ownership and the wild west anything goes guys are damaging wide gun ownership in the long term and giving ammo to the 'no guns at all' lobby by insisting on anything goes

[slim 1,530]

Well we almost agree on something there - you want ALL Americans trained but that's too near the compulsory health care mandate for the Ron Pauls.

Not if you do it in grade school like you do with spelling and art.

I saw a poor old guy in his late 80's and the telly had scared him into buying a Ruger LCP - he tried to fire it but his hands were not strong enough - he turned it round and looked into the barrel and said to me "why won't it fire". Jim got hold of his hand quickly.

Imagine if that guy would've been knowledgeable of firearms throughout his entire life. He would've already had a gun he could shoot.

Yes training should be compulsory for buyers at least and the only way to net them all is to put all sales through the gunshop and/or have a registration program for transfers.

If you got them in grade school you wouldn't have to worry about who bought what.

Don't worry about the government - you aren't going to win a shoot out with those guys anyway. They bring truck loads of machine guns up to my range and they aren't standing for any nonsense.

You don't beat the government by fighting force on force. Look at Al Qaeda. They've been fighting us for decades. You can say we're "winning" but are we really?

On a tactical level, SWAT teams around the country are often outgunned by suspects on a one-to-one basis. The difference is SWAT has hundreds of people backing them up. You see how quickly the government jumps on "conspirators" because the real strength in a gun fight doesn't come from having the best hardware... it comes from having the most friends!

I shouldn't be able buy guns for cash in car parks like I do

Why not? Do you not like freedom? Can you not handle the responsibility of operating a gun safely?

What you're posting here is because there are people out there who can't, your rights should be limited too. If that were the standard, nobody would be allowed to vote since they don't understand how the government works.

We had a guy at the club try to kill himself. He put the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Blew the side of his face off and now he can sort of talk after a years plastic surgery. I mean, if you cant hit your own brain with your own hand gun then you probably haven't got one (a brain)

I'm guessing he was illegally possessing that gun? Had never been trained and/or never had a background check done?

How would government intervention have stopped that from happening? When it's a guy at the club, he's probably been shooting his whole life, LEGALLY possessing a gun and knew exactly what he was trying to do.

How could anyone stop that?

Another member shot himself in the leg trying to rack his glock

You mean the "safe action pistol?"

..but anyway you know what I think, the more that people can be trained and the bad things avoided by proper registration to facilitate training, the less will be the pressure to have serious restrictions on gun ownership and the wild west anything goes guys are damaging wide gun ownership in the long term and giving ammo to the 'no guns at all' lobby by insisting on anything goes

So is the problem in America that all the legally possessed guns are being misused by their owners because they don't have enough training or aren't on the right lists?

It seems you're insinuating that more laws would lead to less gun crime. Well, if that's the case, then why have places like Washington DC, Chicago and NYC all had problems with gun violence? All the people there in legal possession have been trained and certified.

[106206 15]

Ok so let's get to the point. You say its bad enough that civilians can carry guns. You saw the outcome of this news article. What do you think should have been done differently?

I think the point of this thread was lost a while ago.

It has devolved into a sparring match that is guaranteed to be deadlocked on fundamental differences. It will never end.

Each party is more concerned with being right than with having a constructive dialogue.

This thread should be closed as it seems the original topic has been exhausted. We can open a new one called "pros and cons of gun ownership in the US"

What makes America great is that if we don't believe in something we can engage in the political process to try and change it. I suggest to all who feel changes are needed that they embrace this right and liberty of all Americans.

Cheers & happy thanksgiving

[Captain Oates 911]

I think the point of this thread was lost a while ago.

It has devolved into a sparring match that is guaranteed to be deadlocked on fundamental differences. It will never end.

Each party is more concerned with being right than with having a constructive dialogue.

This thread should be closed as it seems the original topic has been exhausted. We can open a new one called "pros and cons of gun ownership in the US"

What makes America great is that if we don't believe in something we can engage in the political process to try and change it. I suggest to all who feel changes are needed that they embrace this right and liberty of all Americans.

Cheers & happy thanksgiving

Wow well if you as a moderator ? think it should be closed and you are going to open a new thread with a title you have already chosen, then who am I to object ?

I would mention though that I come from a country that has a political process that can change things and so do people from many other countries. In fact the English bill of right was 1689. I had already decided that we had exhausted this subject and that's why I didn't post for quite a while.

I didn't regard it as a sparring match at all and my fellow poster is someone I respect. We explored some suggestions. It is a politics forum so I see nothing wrong with a vigorous debate, especially among two member whose views are very different but who are always polite to each other and always seeking to look for ways to satisfy both points of view

You are a mod aren't you ?

[Boiler 46,005]

Let us get the UK system correct, you can if you are very lucky get a shotgun license after jumping through lots of hoops. Anything else you can pretty much forget it.

However if you are not concerned about the legalities then if you know someone who knows someone no problem.

I have a pistol, never actually fired it, got it because I could I guess. I know I feel a lot safer here than I did in London. I will get a concealed carry permit, a friend of mine does courses, so next time.

I do get Hunters in at this time of year, they stack their rifles like umbrellas. Still find it a bit weird.

We have a Make my Day Law in CO, so prosecution of someone defending themselves would never happen. Plus people in those sorts of position to do that are elected, they would kiss their job goodbye if they even suggested that.

[Captain Oates 911]

Let us get the UK system correct, you can if you are very lucky get a shotgun license after jumping through lots of hoops. Anything else you can pretty much forget it.

However if you are not concerned about the legalities then if you know someone who knows someone no problem.

I have a pistol, never actually fired it, got it because I could I guess. I know I feel a lot safer here than I did in London. I will get a concealed carry permit, a friend of mine does courses, so next time.

I do get Hunters in at this time of year, they stack their rifles like umbrellas. Still find it a bit weird.

We have a Make my Day Law in CO, so prosecution of someone defending themselves would never happen. Plus people in those sorts of position to do that are elected, they would kiss their job goodbye if they even suggested that.

I got a 3 inch magnum shotgun in the UK when I was 13 years old

I got a firearms certificate in 1964

I became the club treasurer in 1969

I have an Ar-15 with 30 round mags

I have a Ruger LCR 38 special+p

I have a CZ 223 target rifle

I have a CZ 22LR target rifle

I have a ruger 22lr target pistol

I reload all my own ammunition

I have a Washington State concealed weapons permit

I spent 6 years in the Police and came 4th in the UK in Criminal law in their most advanced exam

I have a professional qualification in civil law

I just mention these things in case you think I am someone who just came from the UK with no understanding of guns or law

Other people's opinions are valid and I think it's good to strive for a legal framework that suits the situation properly - but I do worry that some people approach it in a simplistic way and get themselves into trouble - or hurt

[Ban Hammer 13,505]

I have an Ar-15 with 30 round mags

yet a 20 round mag is easier to fire from the prone position.

[slim 1,530]

This thread should be closed as it seems the original topic has been exhausted. We can open a new one called "pros and cons of gun ownership in the US"

Pros and cons aside... it's a right.

I didn't regard it as a sparring match at all and my fellow poster is someone I respect. We explored some suggestions. It is a politics forum so I see nothing wrong with a vigorous debate, especially among two member whose views are very different but who are always polite to each other and always seeking to look for ways to satisfy both points of view

yet a 20 round mag is easier to fire from the prone position.

I'm fine with 30s.

[Captain Oates 911]

yet a 20 round mag is easier to fire from the prone position.

If I went prone I don't think I could get up again - except during tiffin on sunday afternoon

The redcoats didn't like to be laid prostitute on the ground and always did it standing up

[slim 1,530]

The redcoats didn't like to be laid prostitute on the ground and always did it standing up

They thought it "ungentlemanly" of the colonials to fight from cover. "They hide behind barns, rock walls and in stands of trees to incessantly harrass us with their cowardly fires."

[Captain Oates 911]

They thought it "ungentlemanly" of the colonials to fight from cover. "They hide behind barns, rock walls and in stands of trees to incessantly harrass us with their cowardly fires."

......and they thought submarines were cheating too - jolly bad form old fruit

then they decided if you cant beat em, join em, and invented the tank - now that's cheating

Tank driving tactics advanced quickly under the British