This (illegal) American life

[scandal 951]

Your post makes good sense, but at the end of the day regardless of how we feel with those who have broken the rules as a nation we are much better off with finding a solution then having more than half the population simply complain about it and nothing be done about it.

I was intrigued by your post about the voting predictions. You mentioned that the middle would be pretty much red and you further mentioned that no way will CA, NY, or MA be red. Have you considered Obama's promise of Comprehensive Immigration Reform? While this new passing of not deporting non-criminal illegals and allowing illegals the ability to get work permits is a step in the right direction, do you not see a huge potential backlash on Obama in 2012 for not getting a Comprehension Immigration Reform passed? You do recognize that to the majority of hispanics his promise of Comprehensive Immigration Reform is amnsesty... nothing and nothing less. While he didn't come out and say he would get them Amnesty, I do think that is what hispanics are holding him to and anything less is a failed promise. Could you not see California turn "red" due to the backlash from hispanics?

Well, we should probably have the electoral map discussion in that thread, not this one.

But ....

I was just doodling. I have no idea how things are going to go next Nov. A year is a lifetime in politics. Will the states that were close last time (FL, NM, CO, IN, etc.) edge Republican? Sure, they will. Will enough hardcore blue states stay blue? I think so. Mondale in 1984 only carried one state - his own, MN. Could it be that bad next year for Obama? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think he holds core constituencies. Do you really think Latinos vote in large numbers for GOP? I don't. Some may stay home and not vote at all, that's possible. The same will be true with the GOP though.

Here are 2 scenarios on their side -

1. An 'electable' candidate is chosen. There are only two. Romney and Huntsman. Electable means they are acceptable to mainstream moderate conservatives, and to independents, and can win in swing states. But neither of them is acceptable to the conservative base who hate both. So perhaps enough conservative tea partyers stay home and don't vote, or vote for a fringe 3rd party Libertarian, and that costs GOP just enough key states in the electoral college.

2. A 'tea party' candidate is chosen. Cain, Perry, Bachmann, say. Or maybe even Paul or Santorum. The conservative fringe is ecstatic and comes out in big numbers on election day. But the more moderate Republicans and the independents just can't bring themselves to vote for such a candidate. They either abstain, or vote for Obama.

In short, I don't think we have any idea yet how 2012 will play out.

[Kang 22]

Never even said that or suggested that. Also the majority of legal immigrants are not the spouses of citizens. If we rid ourselves of the illegal immigrants than it would be easier to sponsor legal immigrants. Need to maybe reread what I wrote.

Government statistics show that spouses of US citizens are the biggest source of legal immigrants. After all, they are excluded from quotas along with minor children of US citizens.

Other immigrants, they'd have to wait around 10 years or so because of capping and quota.

[Ready to do it 101]

Can't wait. I can only imagine what my favorite enchilida dinner cooked by el gringo and homey are going to taste like. Yeaaaaaaahhh! I imagine that dinner price will increase as well. Not! Many restuarants, many farm growers, many builders will simply go out of business. Guess what... now how much is that produce going to cost us at the supermarket?

Looking for immigrants to come here from other countries legally? What does one have to do with the other? In fact, if you want to look for immigrants from other countries to come here legally THEY WILL take jobs that some folks actually want. Bottom line, the majority of the work that illegals do is irreplaceable. There is no one willing to do them and if there were... the wage those willing to do the work that illegals did would be too high for any of the industries I mentioned above to stay in business anyhow. Your proposal simply puts out of business many folks and then you not only want to put many folks out of business, you think by doing so means we can thing bring in folks legally who WILL take jobs away from US citizens, which creates an even bigger problem. You just proposed significantly increasing unemployment and getting rid of 20 million consumers. That's a fantastic idea, not!

In fact we would probably be better off. There would be jobs for Americans and at a better pay then otherwise. We could then start looking at immigrants to come here from other countries legally. Right now we have to limit legal immigration as we have so many illegals.

[luckytxn 2,265]

Government statistics show that spouses of US citizens are the biggest source of legal immigrants. After all, they are excluded from quotas along with minor children of US citizens.

Other immigrants, they'd have to wait around 10 years or so because of capping and quota.

Family reunification accounted for 65 percent of all lawful permanent immigration in 2008.

Immigrants who obtained green cards as spouses, children under 21, and parents of US citizens (488,483), or as immediate family of lawful permanent residents and certain family members of US citizens (227,761), accounted for 64.7 percent of all lawful permanent immigrants (see Figure 2). During the last decade, family-based immigration has accounted for about two-thirds of total lawful permanent immigration.

Hardly all of these are just spouses. Family reunification is the largest but it lumps in many.

[luckytxn 2,265]

Can't wait. I can only imagine what my favorite enchilida dinner cooked by el gringo and homey are going to taste like. Yeaaaaaaahhh! I imagine that dinner price will increase as well. Not! Many restuarants, many farm growers, many builders will simply go out of business. Guess what... now how much is that produce going to cost us at the supermarket?

Looking for immigrants to come here from other countries legally? What does one have to do with the other? In fact, if you want to look for immigrants from other countries to come here legally THEY WILL take jobs that some folks actually want. Bottom line, the majority of the work that illegals do is irreplaceable. There is no one willing to do them and if there were... the wage those willing to do the work that illegals did would be too high for any of the industries I mentioned above to stay in business anyhow. Your proposal simply puts out of business many folks and then you not only want to put many folks out of business, you think by doing so means we can thing bring in folks legally who WILL take jobs away from US citizens, which creates an even bigger problem. You just proposed significantly increasing unemployment and getting rid of 20 million consumers. That's a fantastic idea, not!

Well if you knew better than you would know that there are many immigrants that are trying to receive legal visas to work in the fields and factories but very few can get the visas as there are so many here now illegally. Get rid of them and the ones doing it legally can be admitted. Since these are doing it legally then they more than likely will honor their visas and return back and then apply again to return for the next years needs. These are the ones we should be honoring. In fact these are the ones we should be talking about maybe trying to help become citizens eventually as they are being lawful and mindful of our laws.

Not one thing you have stated is a fact and is your opinion. The U.S. will become stronger as we enforce our laws. We are a country of laws. And besides there are many legals that make really good burritos.

[Ready to do it 101]

A month ago, I would have agreed that we have so many GOP candidates that have support that no one or two really standout and ultimately if there are 2 or 3 that get 15%+ support and don't win that many in the GOP simply won't vote. With Perry doing a serious nose-dive I think that perhaps the GOP might have a chance at finding someone that many in the Republican base will rally around. I personally like Ron Paul, and if he's not the guy then I won't vote... which is nothing new as I've never voted anyhow. There are things I like about Cain, but I really just don't think the GOP party is going to rally around Cain enough to win the presidency. Things will move around quite a bit over the next year, but I have to admit that I was pretty shocked at what a poor speaker and debater Perry was in the Florida straw poll that I watched. The guy just sounded horrible, which is shocking... but I can't say I really cared as I was not a fan of his anyhow.

In short, I don't think we have any idea yet how 2012 will play out.

[Kang 22]

^^ Now you have sources, do you think limiting legal immigrants will be a good thing?

Citizens and LPRs will likely result to illegal immigration just to be with their families.

IMHO, the government should be bothered more by compounding the illegal problem and "birth tourism" as these undermines US laws and constitution

[Ready to do it 101]

You are telling me there is a long list of folks waiting to be admitted to pick strawberries? And there is a long list of folks that want to work for a roofer, carpenter, etc? What you fail to recognize is why would the owner of a construction company want to hire some foreigner who has been waiting for years to come to the US to do manual labor for a roofer? Why would the owner want him? He wants Pablo, the guy who has loyal and worked hard for him for the last 15 years... his right hand man. Do you really think this roofer is going to say, "Well heck, they deported Pablo my best guy... My guy that gets more accomplished in 10 hours than many guys accomplish in days. So I guess now I am forced to hire Sebastian who won't last 2 hours in the 110 degree heat... and I probably get to pay Sebastian 150% the hourly wage I was paying Pablo." It's delusional to beleive this will occur. It's Pablo or he's going out of business.

You keep talking about laws. I am talking about what is best for America's future, what is morally correct to keep families together, and what economically makes sense. If people have a problem with understanding that then change the laws. Just maybe, it's the laws that are flawed. Bingo!

Well if you knew better than you would know that there are many immigrants that are trying to receive legal visas to work in the fields and factories but very few can get the visas as there are so many here now illegally. Get rid of them and the ones doing it legally can be admitted. Since these are doing it legally then they more than likely will honor their visas and return back and then apply again to return for the next years needs. These are the ones we should be honoring. In fact these are the ones we should be talking about maybe trying to help become citizens eventually as they are being lawful and mindful of our laws.

Not one thing you have stated is a fact and is your opinion. The U.S. will become stronger as we enforce our laws. We are a country of laws. And besides there are many legals that make really good burritos.

[luckytxn 2,265]

^^ Now you have sources, do you think limiting legal immigrants will be a good thing?

Citizens and LPRs will likely result to illegal immigration just to be with their families.

IMHO, the government should be bothered more by compounding the illegal problem and "birth tourism" as these undermines US laws and constitution

We have to have some kind of a limit on legal immigration. If we didn't then we would have pretty much the whole world trying to move here. We do place limits and the more we reduce the illegals the more we can increase the legal immigrants. Make it as hard as possible for illegals and go after their sources of income and abodes and they have no choice but to depart on their own. As our burden is lessened we can then start looking at legal immigration. We can also look at other countries and have them given more of a chance to immigrate here.

[luckytxn 2,265]

You are telling me there is a long list of folks waiting to be admitted to pick strawberries? And there is a long list of folks that want to work for a roofer, carpenter, etc? What you fail to recognize is why would the owner of a construction company want to hire some foreigner who has been waiting for years to come to the US to do manual labor for a roofer? Why would the owner want him? He wants Pablo, the guy who has loyal and worked hard for him for the last 15 years... his right hand man. Do you really think this roofer is going to say, "Well heck, they deported Pablo my best guy... My guy that gets more accomplished in 10 hours than many guys accomplish in days. So I guess now I am forced to hire Sebastian who won't last 2 hours in the 110 degree heat... and I probably get to pay Sebastian 150% the hourly wage I was paying Pablo." It's delusional to beleive this will occur. It's Pablo or he's going out of business.

You keep talking about laws. I am talking about what is best for America's future, what is morally correct to keep families together, and what economically makes sense. If people have a problem with understanding that then change the laws. Just maybe, it's the laws that are flawed. Bingo!

Well that employer is going to have to start looking at hiring legals. Makes no difference in that he can persuade Pablo to keep working under the table to save on payroll taxes and insurance. He will have to finally get rid of Pablo and hire legals. Yes there are many that would come here and work legally. In fact many Americans will be glad to work at any job an illegal will do. I even did laborer work when younger. I used to do many of the same jobs that illegals are doing now. There are many reputable businesses that hire legals that have a tough time to compete with one that hires illegals as their labor costs are so much lower. This will even the playing field finally. We can look at quality to rise as a result. If he goes out of business because poor Pablo is gone then too bad. There are others who will thrive as now there are more jobs to bid one and get as a result. Wages will increase and that will make them more attractive to Americans.

I am also talking about what is best for America. The law is on my side on this too. No one asked them to uproot their families to get here and live on the gravy train and get the best education and use our services. Go back and change your own government. When they do that then we can have a more equitable future.

Poor Pablo. My heart breaks for him and his criminal kin. Boo Hoo.

[Ready to do it 101]

I personally think we should just open the borders and let anyone who wants to come in, come right in.... after a thorough background check of course. If we end ALL social programs for everyone. Every single USC... no more freebies, no free health care, no SS, no unemployment, no tax credits, no nothing. End it all and open the borders many problems are solved. If we make people start taking responsibility for the own future they will go out and be productive. It's not the governments problem if someone doesn't have the education to find work or if someone is too lazy to work. No more benefits for anyone and they will get off their butts. Regarding immigration, no one will complain that the system takes too long or has to wait years on end to be with a loved one. Regarding illegal immigration, there are jobs illegal immigrants are the only folks that will do them. They will all become "legal" immigrants as we have an open border and the ones that work hardest will get the jobs, the ones that don't will go back or??? What they won't do is get any handouts so going back is pretty much their only alternative. If a zillion Pablo's coming streaming across the border they will be competing with the other Pablo's. They aren't going to be coming and taking a management position at Apple, Kodak, etc. What about all those immigrants that will come with high credentials? Great, since we have this open border policy, the US govt simply creates a higher tax rate for all the immigrants that come across. In the end, this higher tax rate placed on the immigrants decreases the tax burden on the born USC and everyone whether it's Pablo or the immigrant coming to take WhyNot's corportate position, all become consumers... which benefits us all.

I personally think the next "big" thing that will get the US moving will be drilling all over the US and using our own oil and gas. I can't say I agree with or like the idea, but I do think it's the next big job creator and just might be the thing that helps pull us out of this recession.

^^ Now you have sources, do you think limiting legal immigrants will be a good thing?

Citizens and LPRs will likely result to illegal immigration just to be with their families.

IMHO, the government should be bothered more by compounding the illegal problem and "birth tourism" as these undermines US laws and constitution

[Kang 22]

^^ That post was actually for luckytxn. Apparently, I thought his post was still above mine

I was questioning his limiting legal immigration suggestion.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Kang

[luckytxn 2,265]

^^ That post was actually for luckytxn. Apparently, I thought his post was still above mine

I was questioning his limiting legal immigration suggestion.

I knew that.

[Kang 22]

Legal, illegal immigration aside, I still think that the US has a very open immigration system.

In some other countries, if you are a "menial" worker (maid, construction worker, waiter/waitress, janitor), it is a crime to marry a citizen and you will be subject to deportation and be blacklisted. Second, permanent residents do not have rights. Here in the US, and LPR has almost as many rights as US citizens except that they are deportable, cannot vote, cannot run for office. Third, LPRs and new citizens can petition their parents, in many countries they can only petition their spouses and children. Parents excluded. PRs cannot petition family members

Edited October 14, 2011 by Kang

[Ready to do it 101]

Are you kidding? Where do you get your info from? Have you traveled outside the US in the last 10 years? Yes folks from Central America and Mexico want to come here, many to get away from all the violence.

Regarding the rest of the world??? I would agree with our statement if you had made it in the 80's or 90's, but in the last 10 years people aren't just sitting all over the world thinking they want to come to America. In fact, it's quite the contrary. Why in the world would people want to come here? 80% of the population is simply miserable trying to get ahead in a rat race. It's amazing. I go to Colombia where the majority of folks make less than $1000/month and are happy as can be. Here in America people who make less than 20k/yr... miserable. People who make $50k/yr... miserable. People who make $100k/yr... miserable. People who make $250k/yr... miserable.

I think you believe that people all over the world want to come to the US. That is just simply not true. The US aint what it used to be, and if you think it is then you are drinking way too much of the kool aid.

We have to have some kind of a limit on legal immigration. If we didn't then we would have pretty much the whole world trying to move here.