help needed

[slim 1,525]

Flechettes for the 12 ga...I like it! Off to Google some buying sources right now.

Gun shows are the way to go. Also, check this video to see some special ammo in action -

[baron555 934]

First off, the recoil is so great on the M-1/M-14 that follow up shots take about twice as long as they do with an AR. We're talking milliseconds here, but that time adds up when engaging multiple targets. Then you factor in swinging that heavy, long barreled rifle around and you're adding a few milliseconds in there as well.

The recoil is not that great if you know how to hold it and how to shoot it. And you're lobbing a bigger round downrange much further and more accurately at longer distances than a M-855 round. Why do you think there has been such a cry from our present day front line troops for rifles that can reach out and touch? The M-855 is good for close in stuff, but when they are using something that allows them to stay out of that lethal range, you need to counter or do one better. Don't want to get into an argument, there's a place for everything.

Next, look at mag swaps. Sure, you can get pretty quick with you M-14 mag swaps but it's nowhere near as fast as with an AR.

I'd say about the same; IMHO.

Compare 20 round mags to 30 round mags. Mag changes are less frequent and when necessary, are done more quickly. I know you can customize mags to whatever you want, 40s, 50s, 100rd drums... but what's the basic load going to be?

>308 or 30-06 for sure.

And lastly, how are you going to move around with all that ####### on? You're basically getting 1/3 MORE shots with an AR and the weight is so much less you can carry about TWICE as much ammo.

Agreed. Keeping the supply lines moving is key!

However your very last comment may be telling......####### Culver describes over on his forum about his take on the Demise of the Squad. It all happened during Vietnam when everyone had full auto capabilities. It is an excellent read (page 14-15 of the attached link, note this is the second part of a two part treatise of the M-16 in Vietnam, another great read): Demise of the Squad

I've got a few more things to take care of but once I get those lined out, Saiga-12 is on the list.

Uh.... it's a pretty traditional Russian design!

Oh, you'll love it.

Edited November 8, 2011 by baron555

[slim 1,525]

baron555 - The recoil is not that great if you know how to hold it and how to shoot it. And you're lobbing a bigger round downrange much further and more accurately at longer distances than a M-855 round. Why do you think there has been such a cry from our present day front line troops for rifles that can reach out and touch? The M-855 is good for close in stuff, but when they are using something that allows them to stay out of that lethal range, you need to counter or do one better. Don't want to get into an argument, there's a place for everything.

I can't argue with any of those things - they're all true.

But..... The recoil isn't too much for me or you. It would be for our wives. It would be for new shooters. It would be if we were running through an urban area trying to make rapid shots from one side of the street to the other. The rifle (and ammo) would be quite a bit to haul around when getting into and out of vehicles, scaling obstacles, etc. - especially when doing so on about 1/4 the calories we're used to. Simply put, it's just too much gun for the mission.

The other thing - and you're absolutely right about the distance factor - is I'm assessing the threat to be an intermediate distance. In my area, it's very unlikely I'd get a shot over 250 yards. The threat would come from (very) lightly armed adversaries. If this was force on force (or squad on squad) I'm with you, more firepower may be needed. But I'm assessing the threat as a mob of hungry people armed with sticks, chains, (possibly a few) shotguns and Glocks. I don't see this as the Taliban up on the mountain top walking in fire with their AK-47s or SVDs. This is simple zombie control at worst and a polite suggestion to go elsewhere at best.

baron555 - However your very last comment may be telling......####### Culver describes over on his forum about his take on the Demise of the Squad. It all happened during Vietnam when everyone had full auto capabilities. It is an excellent read (page 14-15 of the attached link, note this is the second part of a two part treatise of the M-16 in Vietnam, another great read): Demise of the Squad

Undoubtedly after SHTF there will be roving gangs of marauders and criminal thieves bent on raping and pillaging anything they come across. They'll be better armed than the typical zombie mob but I still don't see it as a squad on squad battle. AR-15s will be more than enough to counter that threat.

I realize the women of the USSR carried Mosins while defending their cities against "ze Germans" but it's important to remember that any military action will be supported by a huge logistics chain that will not be present during SHTF. It's also quite possible we could be displaced from our resupply points and forced to relocate to safer areas. One of the heaviest things we'll be forced to carry is ammo. Even the strongest of us isn't carrying more than two or three thousand rounds of 7.62. On the other hand, we can carry two or three times that much 5.56.

It's nothing to keep 1,000 rds. of 5.56 in a rucksack. 1,000 rds of 7.62, on the other hand, is a game changer!

The biggest difference between military squads and civilian teams post SHTF is we're not going to have resupply. The other difference is squads are built around a machine gun. Most of us won't have those and we won't be doing patrols "looking for Charlie" either. We'll be guarding our gourds and/or making trips to the market, meeting with friends and neighbors, etc. We'll need "something" to get us from A to B. If there's a bigger need for more firepower when defending the homestead or relocating, etc., something like a PKM would fit that bill nicely.

For a little more of a threat, it will be nice to have a little more firepower and a little more standoff (distance) capability. For that purpose the Army and Marines have largely adopted a Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) program where the squad is still built around a machine gun but the DM gives them the operational capability to eliminate a standoff threat. In post-SHTF scenarios this is probably more aligned with what we'll need and the M-14 will fit nicely. A little more firepower and supressive fire if needed (used as a BAR of sorts) and then precision distance work (counter-sniper, long range engagement, etc.) if the mission calls for it. One per squad would be nice.

I guess, in summary, I'm advocating for lighter, smaller rifles all around and I'm not discounting the fact that one trained man with a big heavy rifle will be a force multiplier. I'm simply saying if the whole force is equipped with big heavy rifles it's probable they'll be smoked by folks with lighter, faster rifles. The ideal mix is, as you've pointed out - a mix. A few AR-15s, a heavier SDM-type rifle and, my personal favorite, something with suppressive fire capability.

Buy more guns! Buy more ammo!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

baron555 - The recoil is not that great if you know how to hold it and how to shoot it. And you're lobbing a bigger round downrange much further and more accurately at longer distances than a M-855 round. Why do you think there has been such a cry from our present day front line troops for rifles that can reach out and touch? The M-855 is good for close in stuff, but when they are using something that allows them to stay out of that lethal range, you need to counter or do one better. Don't want to get into an argument, there's a place for everything.

I can't argue with any of those things - they're all true.

But..... The recoil isn't too much for me or you. It would be for our wives. It would be for new shooters. It would be if we were running through an urban area trying to make rapid shots from one side of the street to the other. The rifle (and ammo) would be quite a bit to haul around when getting into and out of vehicles, scaling obstacles, etc. - especially when doing so on about 1/4 the calories we're used to. Simply put, it's just too much gun for the mission.

The other thing - and you're absolutely right about the distance factor - is I'm assessing the threat to be an intermediate distance. In my area, it's very unlikely I'd get a shot over 250 yards. The threat would come from (very) lightly armed adversaries. If this was force on force (or squad on squad) I'm with you, more firepower may be needed. But I'm assessing the threat as a mob of hungry people armed with sticks, chains, (possibly a few) shotguns and Glocks. I don't see this as the Taliban up on the mountain top walking in fire with their AK-47s or SVDs. This is simple zombie control at worst and a polite suggestion to go elsewhere at best.

baron555 - However your very last comment may be telling......####### Culver describes over on his forum about his take on the Demise of the Squad. It all happened during Vietnam when everyone had full auto capabilities. It is an excellent read (page 14-15 of the attached link, note this is the second part of a two part treatise of the M-16 in Vietnam, another great read): Demise of the Squad

Undoubtedly after SHTF there will be roving gangs of marauders and criminal thieves bent on raping and pillaging anything they come across. They'll be better armed than the typical zombie mob but I still don't see it as a squad on squad battle. AR-15s will be more than enough to counter that threat.

I realize the women of the USSR carried Mosins while defending their cities against "ze Germans" but it's important to remember that any military action will be supported by a huge logistics chain that will not be present during SHTF. It's also quite possible we could be displaced from our resupply points and forced to relocate to safer areas. One of the heaviest things we'll be forced to carry is ammo. Even the strongest of us isn't carrying more than two or three thousand rounds of 7.62. On the other hand, we can carry two or three times that much 5.56.

It's nothing to keep 1,000 rds. of 5.56 in a rucksack. 1,000 rds of 7.62, on the other hand, is a game changer!

The biggest difference between military squads and civilian teams post SHTF is we're not going to have resupply. The other difference is squads are built around a machine gun. Most of us won't have those and we won't be doing patrols "looking for Charlie" either. We'll be guarding our gourds and/or making trips to the market, meeting with friends and neighbors, etc. We'll need "something" to get us from A to B. If there's a bigger need for more firepower when defending the homestead or relocating, etc., something like a PKM would fit that bill nicely.

For a little more of a threat, it will be nice to have a little more firepower and a little more standoff (distance) capability. For that purpose the Army and Marines have largely adopted a Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) program where the squad is still built around a machine gun but the DM gives them the operational capability to eliminate a standoff threat. In post-SHTF scenarios this is probably more aligned with what we'll need and the M-14 will fit nicely. A little more firepower and supressive fire if needed (used as a BAR of sorts) and then precision distance work (counter-sniper, long range engagement, etc.) if the mission calls for it. One per squad would be nice.

I guess, in summary, I'm advocating for lighter, smaller rifles all around and I'm not discounting the fact that one trained man with a big heavy rifle will be a force multiplier. I'm simply saying if the whole force is equipped with big heavy rifles it's probable they'll be smoked by folks with lighter, faster rifles. The ideal mix is, as you've pointed out - a mix. A few AR-15s, a heavier SDM-type rifle and, my personal favorite, something with suppressive fire capability.

Buy more guns! Buy more ammo!

I finally got Alla to try the AR and M1A yesterday. I go to the other end of the line and shoot to avoid the looks. So she tried the AR first. Meh...nothing, "does not push back at all" She tried the M1A "Ummm, pushes back a little, like my shotgun I think" (28ga semi auto) The other rifles so far, she just stays away from when they go bang.

She likes a scope and none of my match rifles have one and she thinks no matter what it is "too much noise for the same result" The "result" to her is a hole in the paper at 100 yards. For that her .22 LR is just fine. Quiet, does not push back at all and makes nice holes all close to each other. She usually does not even use the nagazine on her rifle and just single loads each round. She is not into "rapid fire"

She has also settled on Wolf Match Target as the best (most accurate) ammo in her rifle but now will go back to Federal Lightning as "pretty good and cheap!"

If the SHTF Alla will be squirrel hunting and making dinner.

[slim 1,525]

I finally got Alla to try the AR and M1A yesterday. I go to the other end of the line and shoot to avoid the looks. So she tried the AR first. Meh...nothing, "does not push back at all" She tried the M1A "Ummm, pushes back a little, like my shotgun I think" (28ga semi auto) The other rifles so far, she just stays away from when they go bang.

Did she happen to be shooting offhand? Perhaps sitting or prone unsupported? From the bench, nothing pushes back much.

My point in all this is not that the M-1A is too much to handle (like I said before, women in Red carried Mosins) it's just that the AR is going to be a more manageable, easier to operate system for 80% of folks.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Did she happen to be shooting offhand? Perhaps sitting or prone unsupported? From the bench, nothing pushes back much.

My point in all this is not that the M-1A is too much to handle (like I said before, women in Red carried Mosins) it's just that the AR is going to be a more manageable, easier to operate system for 80% of folks.

She was firing from the sitting position at 200 yards, not at anything in particular, just trying the rifles. She thought they were both "too heavy" They both have heavy barrels under their handguards. The M1A has never been, in my opinion, a hard kicker. The .308 is just not that much gun and the M1A is fairly heavy and gas operated to spread out the impulse. Try a .405 in a lever action with a cruel, diabolical crescent buttplate weighing 7 lbs. That hurts your teeth! The M1 is not much of a kicker either for that matter.

I agree with you in general, the AR is a nice "system" and that is not a bad way to put it.

[slim 1,525]

She was firing from the sitting position at 200 yards, not at anything in particular, just trying the rifles.

Huzza!

She thought they were both "too heavy" They both have heavy barrels under their handguards.

I recently bought the lighter-barreled carbine for my wife. This one is standard size under the guards but thinned down from the gas block forward. I hate to go any lighter than that. I'm a big fan of the heavy barrels.

The M1A has never been, in my opinion, a hard kicker. The .308 is just not that much gun and the M1A is fairly heavy and gas operated to spread out the impulse.

All true. But, is Alla going to carry that thing around all day? Honestly, I wouldn't even want to lug that heavy rifle around.

Try a .405 in a lever action with a cruel, diabolical crescent buttplate weighing 7 lbs. That hurts your teeth! The M1 is not much of a kicker either for that matter.

No thanks! If I want to get kicked I'll load up my 12ga.

I agree with you in general, the AR is a nice "system" and that is not a bad way to put it.

I don't call it a "big boy rifle" and I don't pretend that it's a "real rifle" any day of th week. Stoner designed a recoil management system, not a rifle. It's sole purpose is to quickly and accurately launch projectiles. It's not designed to kill, it's not designed to punch holes in things... it's simply a launch platform. A very precise, very tight launching platform.

I always joke that it's a woman (while the .30s are boys) because it's picky, finicky and very sensitive. But, if you give it what it wants, treat it how it likes to be treated and warm it up just right... it'll outperform you!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

All true. But, is Alla going to carry that thing around all day? Honestly, I wouldn't even want to lug that heavy rifle around.

Alla? Carry a heavy rifle all day?

the key words here being..."Carry", "Heavy", and "all day"

otherwise, yeah she is game for it

Edited November 11, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

A few years ago I bought a version of the AR which was entirely made of polymer except the barrel and bolt and a fe other small parts. The barrel was a skinny stainless steel thing. I do nor remember the brand name but the outfit later sold to Bushmaster I think. I bought it at a gunshow and I must have been crazy with fever or something that day. It had a rail top end and I also bought a red dot sight to go on it so I was completely delirious!

At any rate it weighed something like 3 lbs, I have handguns that weigh more than that.

It was not very accurate.

The next time a gun show came along I saw that thing in my gun cabinet, thought "How the #### did that thing get here?" and took it with me and traded it for a really nice Colt Officers Model Match .38 revolver. Phew! I recovered fully after that.

[slim 1,525]

A few years ago I bought a version of the AR which was entirely made of polymer except the barrel and bolt and a fe other small parts. The barrel was a skinny stainless steel thing. I do nor remember the brand name but the outfit later sold to Bushmaster I think. I bought it at a gunshow and I must have been crazy with fever or something that day. It had a rail top end and I also bought a red dot sight to go on it so I was completely delirious!

At any rate it weighed something like 3 lbs, I have handguns that weigh more than that.

It was not very accurate.

The next time a gun show came along I saw that thing in my gun cabinet, thought "How the #### did that thing get here?" and took it with me and traded it for a really nice Colt Officers Model Match .38 revolver. Phew! I recovered fully after that.

I'm not sure who made it before but Bushy is still making the Carbon-15. I wouldn't buy one. It's a cool concept and they are very light... but, something about a polymer rifle just doesn't suit me. Grips and guards, fine. But, receivers and components, no way!

There's an outfit out west called Plum Crazy that makes polymer receivers and they're pretty cheap. Not buying one of those either.

We have a gun show tomorrow. I'm thinking about taking that carbine I just bought and trading it for a carry gun. I don't have a decent sidearm and I need to get one. That carbine is plenty small to carry in my Jeep but Johnny Law is still hesitant to let us carry loaded rifles. So, a loaded pistol it is.

[slim 1,525]

Went to the gun show yesterday with my new (to me) DPMS AR-15A1 carbine with the lighter barrel. I figured this thing wasn't exactly what I wanted and I got a decent deal on it so I'll just see what's out there. I really needed a good sidearm/carry gun so that was my intent.

I walked the aisles and everytime I'd tell folks what I had, they'd hear DPMS and wince. Then, I'd tell them the price and they'd wince again. The AR market is so flooded right now it's possible to buy a brand new one for cheaper than what I was asking. But, I kept walking and talking, wheeling and dealing. I turned the corner, and there it was....

Dude had a Draco AK-47 pistol. After a brief discussion of the legality of everything I decided I was interested but my rifle was worth a little more than his pistol. He reached into his bag and pulled out a Taurus Millenium Pro. I wasn't interested until he said, "it's a .45." Now he had not one, but TWO guns I was interested in. I threw in a little cash to boot and we flashed IDs (yes, Princess Pelosi, we did comply with the law and there was no "loophole") shook hands, and continued practicing our liberty in the safest exhibition hall in the area.

Before I even made it out of that row I had three people stop me to check out the Draco (which was NOT for sale) and three offers to buy the Millenium (which was possibly for sale) and I took up the last guy on his offer. Once again, we flashed IDs (for Bloomberg this time) shook hands, and further exercised our freedom.

I was still looking for a 1911 even though I had my new carry "pistol." The really cool thing about that Draco is it's a "pistol" and according to our CHL laws we can possess and carry any loaded pistol in our vehicle. This makes me feel a lot better since now when I'm traveling to do Appleseeds I don't have to leave my Jeep full of rifles and ammo and walk around unarmed when I'm stopping for chow or to use the can. I can guard it with a rifle caliber sidearm. I doubt I'll carry this thing to the grocery store or to and from work, but it's nice to know I can sit it across my lap when driving through the "nice parts" of our city.

I'm still looking for a 1911 for everyday carry and while I prefer the double stack Paras, the Rock Island gained a lot of ground yesterday. I know Phil's had high praise for his and the prices for them are really reasonable. I may end up with one before too long.

I also got a bunch of 12ga Dragon's Breath. My next range day is going to be awesome! Rockin and rollin on the Draco and then lightin fires with the Dragons Breath. HUZZAH!!! I love being free!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

There seems to be a flood of these sawed-off rifle "pistols" available now. My favorite local gun shop even has a few types of lever action "pistols" which are no more than lever action rifle with short barrels and cut off stocks. If you do this yourself and convert what WAS a rifle, you are in big time trouble and your home will be subject to the Ruby Ridge/Waco treatment. If they are made this way at the factory, they are just "pistols" and sold as handguns. Interesting.

The last few years have been very interesting in the firearms field because about the time you think they have done everything, they do a whole lot more.

Yes, the rifle I had was called a Carbon-15 and was made before Bushmaster bought them. I will not say it was a bad rifle, it was crazy lightweight, but it worked fine, just not ver accurate with that skinny barrel. Again, just way out of character for me and those types of guns will never stay around long. I put the red dot sight on a Ruger 10/22 which I had outfitted with one of the after-market Red/white/blue laminated stocks. Again completely out of character for me but the kids loved it. A kind of wacky ooking rifle that shot a lot of bullets fast. What was not to like? Alla tried shooting it also but thinks it does not "look good" and you know, for them, it has to "look good"

I love gun shows, just to be around all the guns in one place (we have one local shop that is like a gun show) but I often ran into the same "what I have is trash, what they have is treasure" attitude. You had to look long and hard for a good deal. Sounds like you found one.

I am still not convinced places like "Gunbroker" are good. On the one hand I can do a search for a particular gun and find them easily, on the other hand, it seems like all the pawn shops are doing this now, selling online as well as in their store, and the price goes up! I used to have an "in" with two local pawn shops and they would call me when a customer came in with a "Gary gun". that is how I got several Winchesters in my collection including the "elephant gun") The pawn shop would hold the gun without buying it, then I would come in and we would haggle a price and the pawn shop would offer the seller a percentage, like a consignment with a guaranteed buyer. Good deals for me. But then the guy caught on and started offering guns on the internet auctions first and that dried up that.

There are some good deals on the auction sites, but they are few and far between. It is easier to get good deals on used equipment and accesories than on guns themselves

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I doubt I'll carry this thing to the grocery store or to and from work, but it's nice to know I can sit it across my lap when driving through the "nice parts" of our city.

I'm still looking for a 1911 for everyday carry and while I prefer the double stack Paras, the Rock Island gained a lot of ground yesterday. I know Phil's had high praise for his and the prices for them are really reasonable. I may end up with one before too long.

I also got a bunch of 12ga Dragon's Breath. My next range day is going to be awesome! Rockin and rollin on the Draco and then lightin fires with the Dragons Breath. HUZZAH!!! I love being free!

You need to PM this post to Rob.

[baron555 934]

I love gun shows also.....I especially like to get into conversations with sellers about their outlandish claims justifying their outlandish prices (I don't cause a scene but always walk away after dropping the truth on them!).

Great job Slim.....yes American freedom in action.

And I do like Gunbroker, I've made some good deals on that site...but like any other, you have to have knowledge going in and be prepared to walk away.

And to entice Slim, and everyone else, here's my two Rock Island 1911s.

Go here for great discussions about the RIAs: RIA forum

First one is my day gun, outfitted with Novak fiber optic sites and VZ 320 grips:

Second one is my night gun, outfitted with Novak tritium sites and Crimson Trace laser grips:

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I love gun shows also.....I especially like to get into conversations with sellers about their outlandish claims justifying their outlandish prices (I don't cause a scene but always walk away after dropping the truth on them!).

Great job Slim.....yes American freedom in action.

And I do like Gunbroker, I've made some good deals on that site...but like any other, you have to have knowledge going in and be prepared to walk away.

And to entice Slim, and everyone else, here's my two Rock Island 1911s.

Go here for great discussions about the RIAs: RIA forum

Nice photos Phil! Gun porn!

I usually have one or two auctions I have going at Gunbroker and usually lose them of course. I am bidding on a Winchester M63 .22 semi-auto right now. I use the autobid feature up to the amount I am willing to spend and just see what happens. I usually lose. But seriously I bid a reasonable price and if it goes above that, they can have it. I will not die tomorrow if I do not have that rifle.

I have actually had better luck buying loading dies, scopes, my spotting scope, etc for pretty good prices. I also bught a shooting mat and some of my other gear there.

I have told Alla I will put together a shooting outfit for her and next spring she can enter some of the fun matches at our club. They have .22 "gopher shoots" where they shoot at the heads of bowling pins at ranges out to 100 yards. Ought to be just up her alley. They also have .22 silhouette matches

(psst, secret, I already got her to shoot the AR and it didn't bother her so I am hoping by next summer she would want to shoot in the monthly DCM match. I just have to convince her she actualy CAN see the target without a scope)