help needed

[LvivLovers 39]

I joke with folks, "my new one has a can opener and MP3 player on it." In truth, half the ####### on those rifles is unnecessary and can even be illegal. Make sure you're allowed to have a 150-round mag in your state. For example, here in Ohio we're allowed to own them... we just can't use them. (One of those "common sense" laws, I guess.) Some places don't allow bayonet lugs, etc. Check your local laws but for SHTF purposes, who cares.

Yeah. I've seen some pretty outrageous things already on YouTube. At this point, I'm definitely believing in the SHTF so I won't be concerned with the legality.

Another thing you'll want to check on is legal transportation. Driving to/from the range can get you in trouble if you're doing something illegal. Make sure you know how to legally transport your rifle/ammo in your state. Another example from Ohio - we can't have loaded magazines in the car with the rifle. More common sense.

Good point....never really thought about that so good to know. I'll check up on GA laws.

I've heard it described as "Barbie for boys."

Great Googlie Mooglie!!! I'm going to need a lot more money and a special room...

I've trusted my life to Colt and FN. My personal SHTF rifle is a Colt.

Guess that's pretty much the ultimate endorsement. I've been leaning towards a Colt, but at this point I'm thinking multiple AR-15s, so once I get my first one I'll take time to look around a lot more and see what else is out there.

However, as you've already found out, there are a million options out there and everyone has an opinion. For the most part, if you stick with a reputable company, you'll be fine. You can go big (LMT, Daniel Defense, Bravo, Yankee Hill, etc.) and spend $1500 on a rifle or you can go really, really light with a kit build assembled like Frankenstein from parts you order off the internet. A rifle like that will run you around $600.

The company Phil suggested, Rock River, is about the perfect mix of quality and value. They make great rifles and they're not super expensive. You'll get to know the spectrum once you read more and more about them but the general concensus is DPMS, Olympic, Stag, etc., are at the bottom of the barrel but from what I've seen, their rifles are just as good as any others.

The thing about ARs is they're like women. Very picky. Finicky. Subject to mood swings. However, once you figure them out and then treat them how they like being treated, they'll do anything you ask them to.

I personally believe a SHTF rifle should have iron sights. Whether those are pinned to the rifle, built into the handguard or just attached to the rails, I don't care. No matter how they're on there, it should have some. You can have an optic (or 2) also, but it should always, always, always have irons.

After that... the rest is up to you. You can literally change out every single piece of that rifle (see picture above) and make it exactly what you want.

Ok. That's what I gathered as well. I want high quality parts that are going to last because of the scenarios I'm buying for.

The only other thing I'd say you need, and this is often overlooked by even the most "cool" of the tacticool shooters, is magazines. You can't have too many magazines. Most folks buy a $1000 rifle and then $50 worth of magazines and they're good. Magazines take a long time to load. You might lose a few. They may break.

Take whatever money you would spend on "#######" for your rifle (can openers and MP3 players) and spend it on mags. You don't need a 3lb foregrip light/laser combo. You don't need a bayonet. Take all that money and buy a few more magazines.

And a note on mags... I don't believe the hype on PMAGs. I buy USGI mags in as big a quantity and for the least amount I can. If they worked in Iraq, they'll work here. I can buy 3 USGI mags for the same price as 1 PMAG. I don't care how cool they look. All I care about is if they work. Green followers and you're good to go. Buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep!

Was thinking the same thing here as well...I want tons of magazines...I've already seen it takes some time and effort to load them so I want to be good to go.

Planning to go lean and mean...no frills. I figured laser sights and flashlights, although cool, could give away position.

Consider yourself lucky!

Consider yourself lucky!

Consider yourself lucky again! Man, that must be nice!

10,000 rounds is far too much to carry. However, if you're set up at home, 10,000 is probably right around where you'll feel comfortable once you start figuring out what's what. You'll notice with those ARs you can sit around having fun shooting at the range and before you know it, you just dumped 500 rounds. It adds up really quick.

Now, imagine you're doing zombie eradication drills or worse, there's a vehicle-borne threat attacking your homestead. Aren't you going to want more than a few hundred rounds?

Bottom line is, you can't have too much ammo!

I do consider myself VERY lucky! And wow...I'm surprised that pretty much all of you are saying 10,000+ rounds! I figured it was sort of overkill because if the SHTF, I'd most likely get taken out before ever having the opportunity to fire that many rounds. I guess it makes a little more sense though if you're going to have multiple people. Keep in mind, I'm talking about having this as my SHTF rounds...totally separate from practice shooting rounds...I've already seen it's pretty easy to fire off several hundred at a time there.

As always, thanks for lots of great info!

[LvivLovers 39]

I have two AR-15s.

1. RRA National Match A4, set up for "Tactical" use with a IOR Valdada 1.1 x 26mm scope, G1 Front Grip pod with spring retractable bipod, and black Turner leather sling.

2. RRA National Match A4, set up for "Match " use with a Leupold VS-3 2.5-8 X 36mm scope, Harris retractable front bipod, and black Turner leather sling.

#1 was purchased slightly used and #2 was purchased brand new. Both were as advertised with MOA accuracy out of the box to 600 yards or more.

As you will find, the accuracy of the shooter is the limiting factor!!

Wow....I didn't realize they could be accurate to that degree. Thanks for the specifics...going to look at all these.

[LvivLovers 39]

Pistols such as your Glocks represent a "hail Mary" pass at anything past 50 yards. I used to shoot in handgun silhouette competition which is done at 25, 50, 75 and 100 yards. I used a scope Thompson Center Contender single shot pistol in .22 hornet for the centerfire match and a scoped Ruger MKII with a bull barrel for the rimfire match. Both would easily hit and knock down the silhouettes at 100 yards From a bench rest they shot respectable 100 yard groups.

However this is basically a "stunt" where a miss gets an "aw sh*t" and nothing else. For any kind of defensive, survival situation at long range you need a rifle. Even handgun hunting is a sport and challenge. When you need to feed your family or defend your family you do not need challenges, you need something that is dependable at any range where an animal can be made into food or a person can be a threat.

I think the furthest I shot the other day was around 25 yds...definitely a lot harder than at closer range. 50,75,100 yds would be pretty tough!

Makes sense...I'm going for whatever is most practical really envisioning being at home and having undesirables prowling the neighborhood...so just need something dependable for in-the-house defense or possibly longer range trying to defend the neighborhood.

[LvivLovers 39]

It is too much for .40 S&W but definitely not too much. Get a few more guns and get plenty of ammo for all of them. I have many more than 10,000 rounds. I would probably get nervous if I only had that much, but it is not all of one caliber. .22s come in cartons of 500 so just 20 cartons makes 10,000 rounds. Alla is going through 500 per week and shooting 2 or three days a week. I shoot 200 shotgun shells every week. 500 for a monthly club match. Alla can usually shoot 25 per week, she prefers her rifle. I have enough compunents to assemble far more than 10,000 rounds. A very small carton of primers is 1000! I have, literally, garbage cans filled with shotgun shells of skeet loads, 5 guages! 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410 Not many 16s & .410s.

I am working on a skeet gun for her. She claims hers is "too heavy", a M1100 28 guage. We looked at a sweet old Browning "double auto" the other day, very light. 20ga. She liked it. It has a cult following among Browning collectors and is sweet skeet gun (which it was actually designed for) but they want $1000 for it! I will check out the online auctions before I buy one of those. She is not interested in the pump guns and mine are not light anyway.

She may go for a Ruger Red Label 20 ga or if I can find one in 28, that would be even better.

She says "I have to be able to pull the trigger two times and it shoots two times" so definitely the auto or O/U route.

No, 10,000 rounds is not too many, not at all.

That's a lot of ammo! I can see that this is going to get expensive...

[LvivLovers 39]

I have three AR-15s.

1. Colt Match Target Rifle (MT-6601), set up for "precision" use with a cheap 3-9x40 Simmons scope, Harris bipod, padded cheek rest, and green USGI sling. The rifle is camouflaged as are the mags kept with it. I even have some burlap strips hanging off it and wrapped around it. This is my "sittin in a bush for three days" rifle.

2. RRA 16" HBAR upper, Surplus Ammo and Arms lower, set up for "tactical" use with a Buhnell mini red dot scope, UTG quad rail, Mako grip well, Mako recoil reducing stock, Magpul RSA, Magpul ASAP, Magpul BAD, Troy Claymore muzzle brake, and a black tactical 1/2 point sling. This one is still black but will probably be camo pretty soon. I plan on adding a 37mm "flare" launcher too. This is my "put as much ####### on it as I can" rifle and is just for fun, learning, etc. I bought this one to play around with. This is the one I'd put the MP3 player on if I had one.

3. Spike's Tactical 16" midlength upper, Surplus Ammo and Arms lower, set up for my wife. It has Daniel Defense A1.5 rear sight and Magpul MOE stock. A lighter, faster rifle. Just bought it last night from a buddy of mine (and got a sweet package deal with a bunch of ammo too!) Still black. No sling yet. I'm going to have her pick which accessories she'd like. This will be "her rifle."

#1 was purchased brand new. #2 the upper was purchased used and I put the lower and accessories together brand new. #3 is a factory built upper that my buddy shot very little and he assembled the lower himself. All three are as accurate as the operator.

I plan on buying at least one, if not two or three more before the end of the year. (I have three little brothers and I'd like to have one for each of them. Plus my wife and my stepdad too, so that's at least six we need. Might as well get ten. You can't have too many!)

Just a quick note about ARs that I forgot to mention yesterday.... Make sure your barrel is chrome lined. It'll be a lot heartier when you're not cleaning it regularly. It'll keep it's rifling better, it'll handle different bullet types, etc., etc., etc. It's not necessary, per se, but it'll hold up better in the long run and that's important for SHTF.

The other thing with ARs is the twist rate of the rifling. People debate all day which is better but in SHTF it doesn't really matter. 1x7 is going to get you way, way, way out there with really accurate fire. 1x9 will too. So will 1x8, 1x12 and any other twist rate you can find. The general rule is heavier bullets for the lower number of twist. But, in truth, it doesn't really matter. Whatever you have it'll shoot. For precision shots at 600 yards, you'll need to figure that stuff out. But for "get off my lawn" it doesn't matter.

Exactly. Those are "pistols" in name only. Both are pretty much rifles, especially when shot off a bench.

Yep. As you said earlier, it's nice to have a .22LR in a smaller rifle.

Ruger 10/22, Marlin 795 or 60, Remington 597, etc. would be great. Some people want the survival-specific .22s but I'd rather have a more common rifle so I could find mags or parts if I needed.

Having and knowing how to use a shotgun is something every American ought to do. Shooting birds will be important after SHTF and something like a duck or goose (or even a pigeon) will make a fine meal.

If you don't know how to use a shotgun to shoot birds, learn to do so. Like Gary's said, get you a good gun and then get out to the skeet range and learn to bust 'em. You may need it!

Quite an arsenal! My next goal after a few AR-15s will be shotguns. Guess we will need to find another range to practice skeet shooting. We have tons of ducks and geese on our lake, but I would guess they wouldn't last long. Tons of squirrels in the neighborhood as well.

So do you guys store gas as well? I'm curious what the best way to do that would be in a typical residential area.

[baron555 934]

Quite an arsenal! My next goal after a few AR-15s will be shotguns. Guess we will need to find another range to practice skeet shooting. We have tons of ducks and geese on our lake, but I would guess they wouldn't last long. Tons of squirrels in the neighborhood as well.

So do you guys store gas as well? I'm curious what the best way to do that would be in a typical residential area.

Since we live on 5 unincorporated acres and have a big barn, I always have at least 15 gallons of gas in 5 gallon cans full for use in the tractor. But that would provide many days of generator use also.

We also go camping and have a full outfitting for both the Coleman stove and the propane stove and tent heater.

The real question is whether you plan to hunker down and defend or go on the offensive. The multiple rounds will also be used as money for bartering and exchanges.

Yes the Colts are nice but the RRAs are just as.....with a solid background and superb customer support. I really like mine and did a lot of homework before purchasing a few years back.

[Dustin C 12]

I feel like I'm so far behind and ignorant in regards to guns and such. I have tons of canned food stored and know how to garden fairly well since I've been doing it for the past 3 years now. I only have a 30-06 with about 200 rounds and 12 gauge shotgun with about 300 rounds, but no slugs.... I used to work with many knowledgeable people in WV that could describe all kinds of details and likes and dislikes about cool guns and such just like you are mentioning here, but I need to get caught up and learn more I guess you could say.

I grew up watching MacGyver on TV so I am very creative at coming up with crazy and effective solutions to many problems.

[baron555 934]

I only have a 30-06 with about 200 rounds and 12 gauge shotgun with about 300 rounds, but no slugs....

OK, so what do you have? (Guns-wise that is?)

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Quite an arsenal! My next goal after a few AR-15s will be shotguns. Guess we will need to find another range to practice skeet shooting. We have tons of ducks and geese on our lake, but I would guess they wouldn't last long. Tons of squirrels in the neighborhood as well.

So do you guys store gas as well? I'm curious what the best way to do that would be in a typical residential area.

My guns are not stored long term, generally. I did store them at my mothers house when I was in Ukraine and I had one or another of my brothers go over and wipe them off every so often with light oil.

I am of the beliefe that guns should NOT be stored in carrying cases. Carrying cases are for carrying and transporting. My guns are soted in a couple of cabinets I built, ths is where the "gun cabinet jewelry" gets displayed. It is NOT visible from external windows, BTW. The others are in closets, desk drawers, etc and many are in wall racks downstairs,I have a dehumidifier in the basement. This is the room where I have my loading equipment, ammo etc. I have a lot of stuff stored in the garage; lead, bullets, brass, shotgun shells, Alla keeps her rifle and shotgun in her study/office. My big roll top desk is full of handguns A S&W .38 safety hammerless (Lemon Squeezer) is my paperweight and sometimes I load it and drop it in a coat pocket and take it for a walk.

Most of my guns are interesting (to me) but are not SHTF guns. As much as I enjoy the M1907 Winchester, .351 WSL, it is not a SHTF gun.

[slim 1,530]

I've been leaning towards a Colt, but at this point I'm thinking multiple AR-15s, so once I get my first one I'll take time to look around a lot more and see what else is out there.

If you have the money, buy a Colt. I recommend the 6920. Charles! bought one about a year ago so you can PM him about how much he likes his. It's not like you'll buy one and say, "Gosh, I really wish I would've bought a DPMS."

That being said, anything that's mil-spec will do just fine including DPMS.

Was thinking the same thing here as well...I want tons of magazines...I've already seen it takes some time and effort to load them so I want to be good to go.

Planning to go lean and mean...no frills. I figured laser sights and flashlights, although cool, could give away position.

It sounds like you're "thinking in the right direction."

Do a little research on stripper clips and feed spoons. They reduce magazine feeding time significantly. You can carry extra ammo in bandoleers and then quickly strip the rounds off the strippers. You'll have several mags loaded in a matter of seconds compared to several minutes. You can get strippers and spoons off E-Bay for just a couple bucks. Well worth the money.

You'll have a lot of time during SHTF to sit around and do nothing. You can spend that time loading magazines! The only thing is, you can't load more magazines than what you have and if you're in a prolonged "battle" you may not get the opportunity to reload mags. You can reload them all day when nobody's shooting at you but when you're under fire it takes FOREVER to load them.

You want to have -

1. One in your rifle at all times and possibly a spare on your belt or in your cargo pocket. (Don't wear cargo pants? GET SOME!!!)

2. Three on a bandoleer or in a satchel bag for fast operations. A raid, a quick jaunt to a neighbor's house, a run to the market, etc.

3. Six on your kit for normal operations. Patrols, extended time away from the house, etc.

4. Six more for extended patrols, ambushes, etc.

5. An unlimited number to arm up your home and any observation posts, fallback positions, etc. Better to use the ones in place than the ones on your kit.

Don't forget all those people who thought three magazines is a lot. After SHTF they'll offer their daughter in exchange for extra mags. Pass on the daughter (unless you need another woman around) but trade 'em for something. Yet another form of currency that's relatively cheap to buy now. With the large amount of dudes coming back from the box I've been seeing them for $6 or less when bought in bulk.

As has been said already, you should count your ammo in the tens of thousands... mags should be in triple digits.

Wow....I didn't realize they could be accurate to that degree. Thanks for the specifics...going to look at all these.

The AR is the most accurate out of the box semiauto production rifle ever. Very seldom do I see people who can outshoot their rifle. More often than not, the rifle is more accurate than the operator.

With a little practice you can put holes in holes at 100 yards with relative ease. With a little more practice you can engage targets at 500 yards in a stiff wind. The rifle can do it.

The question is... can you?

Quite an arsenal! My next goal after a few AR-15s will be shotguns. Guess we will need to find another range to practice skeet shooting. We have tons of ducks and geese on our lake, but I would guess they wouldn't last long. Tons of squirrels in the neighborhood as well.

Before you buy "a few" ARs, buy at least one 12ga shotgun. You can have a dozen AR 15s but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to eat a rabbit or goose. It also doesn't mean you're going to survive an encounter with undesirables inside your perimeter. A shotgun ups your chances of accomplishing both of those things. Different tools for your toolbox. The mission will not always be "shoot the zombies." It could be something like "enter the building." Ever try busting a deadbolt with a 5.56 round?

My wife was pretty surprised at the number of ducks and geese, squirrels, even racoons and possums we have in our parks and just walking around here in America. She said, "In Russia you never will be see like zis because somebody gonna eat." I think you're correct. Wildlife will become pretty scarce pretty quick. Things like rats and mice will become better meals. Dogs, cats, etc., will also disappear rather quickly.

If it's just "a rough time" there will be game birds, deer, etc., to eat. If it's TEOTWAWKI where the zombies are attacking and Hotlanta just spilled over into your neighborhood, anything edible will disappear in short order. Some folks even expect cannibalism to take shape rather quickly hence the whole zombie thing.

Personally, I think we're going to see horrific events in the first few months but then a situation similar to the great depression after that. We'll have to exterminate the "I'm still here" folks who will be acting like animals and then after that we'll fall into community groups that'll help one another out as far as trade and subsistence are concerned. There'll be bands of marauders and outlaws but those will only hit soft targets.

So do you guys store gas as well? I'm curious what the best way to do that would be in a typical residential area.

Personally I do not since I'll have toPhil nailed it with the couple of extra portable cans. Everyone should have a couple of those anyway.

As far as bulk fuel storage the best I've ever heard is you take a 55gal drum or one of those big 285gal water/chem tanks and partially bury it somewhere on your property. (In compliance with the HOA, of course.) Could be in your tree line, could be under your deck, front porch, etc. Then you cover it up with a row of firewood or some other "natural" looking pile of stuff that would be there anyway. When done correctly, nobody will even know it's there.

Treat with Sta-bil and make sure you have a manually operated pump. You can pick up the barrels/tanks on Craigslist because local businesses usually give them away or sell them at really low cost.

I personally don't have fuel stored because I'm planning on bugging out. I worked out a barrel system to store it but decided against it since it would be too much to transport plus my retreat locations are all a tank or less away.

I have a couple small propane tanks for heat/cooking if need be. Grill tanks are perfect for storing a lot of fuel in a small area. Propane will be good for a while but it probably won't get refilled for a long, long time!

The real question is whether you plan to hunker down and defend or go on the offensive. The multiple rounds will also be used as money for bartering and exchanges.

Yes the Colts are nice but the RRAs are just as.....with a solid background and superb customer support. I really like mine and did a lot of homework before purchasing a few years back.

Yep. Ammo will be currency. Keep that in mind. More ammo = more $$$$. (Well, not necessarily $$$ but more food and stuff.)

Even the noobest of the noobs who have never even shot a gun before have heard of Sam Colt. Rock River, not so much. For SHTF purposes a RRA of any type will be more than enough rifle and you can buy a RRA for about 75% of the cost of a Colt. But keep in mind, that 75% is still going to be 75% less when you sell it if S does not hit the F.

I have a Colt. I have a Rock River. If I had to pick only one to rely on I'd pick the Colt all day long.

But that's just me. As you can see on arfcom and any other gun site, even here, it's different for everyone and nobody is right or wrong. Do what's right for you.

I feel like I'm so far behind and ignorant in regards to guns and such. I have tons of canned food stored and know how to garden fairly well since I've been doing it for the past 3 years now. I only have a 30-06 with about 200 rounds and 12 gauge shotgun with about 300 rounds, but no slugs.... I used to work with many knowledgeable people in WV that could describe all kinds of details and likes and dislikes about cool guns and such just like you are mentioning here, but I need to get caught up and learn more I guess you could say.

I grew up watching MacGyver on TV so I am very creative at coming up with crazy and effective solutions to many problems.

Sounds to me like you're set up pretty well and already light years ahead of the average bear.

You don't need an AR but it's nice to have one. Network with folks. You'll be the long rifle, they'll be the security.

I am of the beliefe that guns should NOT be stored in carrying cases. Carrying cases are for carrying and transporting.

True. But then you have to store all your carrying cases!

I have a few padded cases that double as shooting mats. Well worth the investment, especially for the long rifles. There's something to being able to carry your rifle across your back for a long, long, time and then spread out a nice and comfortable - AND DRY!!! - shooting mat. Buy at least one.

[Ban Hammer 13,508]

I've heard it described as "Barbie for boys."

any recommendations for a night vision scope?

[slim 1,530]

any recommendations for a night vision scope?

AN-PVS 4 or pretty much anything with a gen3 intensifier tube. The newer model, the AN-PVS 14, seems to do pretty well too although I haven't used one. It's a lot smaller and lighter but smaller and lighter often means "easier to break."

There are some pretty decent civilian made scopes out there too and they can be had for relatively cheap but when it comes to stress under fire (aka dropping your rifle in one of those "oh sh!t" moments) you can't beat the durability of the mil-spec models. Uncle Sam buys the cheapest stuff he can find, but only after dropping it off the top of the deuce a few times to test it for ruggedness.

Personally, I look at night vision as a huge investment for very little reward. Night vision is awesome, and a great force multiplier when you have several units with the capability to work together in the dark. But, for civilian use on ONE rifle, it really doesn't do a lot for you.

It sure is cool though! And if you have the cash, go for it.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Wow....I didn't realize they could be accurate to that degree. Thanks for the specifics...going to look at all these.

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Rifles that are well made and assembled to tight tolerances, with precision rifled barrels and in a secure stock with a precision trigger mechanism are extremely accurate, amazingly acccurate and usually hindered by the human holding on to them

They are also limtied by another HUGE factor. Gravity and the ability of one to estimate range.

If I know the range is precisely 1000 yards, I can use my sharps rilfe firing old timey black powder and lead bullets to plunk bullets into a man sized silhouette target all day long, clean the barrel after every two shots with a mixture of water and "Mean Green" and I am good to go all day killing zombies at 1000 yards, one shot one kill.

However if you fool me and one of those zombies is really at 950 yards instead of 1000, the bullets is going to zing harmlessly over his head, if he is at 1050 yards instead of 1000, the bullet will hit the gorund about 50 feet in front of him. I could hope for a richochet to take him out.

Modern, high velocity rifles take a lot of the guess work out of ranges but it is still there in spades. Just not to the same degree as a rifle with a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps. Tripe the muzzle velocity and range estimation gets easier.

I can reliably shoot dinner plate size groups at 600 yards with either my M1, M1A or either of 2 AR target rifle with iron sights, no scope. That is enough to classify "expert" which is 82% or better scores.

Those are again, target rifles made for that purpose at precisely known ranges. Theya re not cheap rifles.

Alla is always full of herself when she shoots her dime sized groups at 100 yards and I am shooting groups or 2-3" with "my .22" My .22 is onme of the others in the house that I choose to take along. Not junk by any means, but not a precision made rifle costing 3 times as much. She will say "I shoot beter than YOU!" I say "hand me your rifle" "NO WAY! Keep your hands off my rifle"

They are very precise tools and can do amazing things in the right conditions at known ranges. Snipers use laser range finders to pull off amazing long range shots.

[baron555 934]

Snipers use laser range finders to pull off amazing long range shots.

Actually modern snipers have a spotter with them that do this.

[baron555 934]

For storage all mine are in gun cabinets out of sight in the heated basement. Each has a Golden Rod cabinet heater and a box if desiccant that can be recharged in the oven.

Never have to do anything special with them.

Any others that are outside the cabinets are in impregnated storage sacks and located on top or on a table.

Some are in parts for cleaning or to restore a wood stock.

The 870 is located in our bedroom closet and not easily found by others but quickly by me.

The pistols are in a fingerprint activated little safe located under the night stand next to where I sleep.

Many of my Milsurps collectors are still full of cosmoline and other cleaned up for use.

Edited November 3, 2011 by baron555