Is this it?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I would love to see the welfare system abolished,give everyone on it two years notice then POOF gone!

Better hope you're never in a position to need the welfare system. Oh or develop a heart condition, or something similar that requires daily treatment and care.

[dalegg 143]

As to the religious rights' uncompromising attitude in terms of being pro-life I do have a question: how is it possible that large parts of the religious right support the death penalty and war both of which not only violate the fifth commendment but also many of Jesus' teachings. Why does being pro-life stop for the religious right when the baby is delivered? Isn't that a compromise?

Yes, it is. In the true spirit of living under God, human beings should not be killing other human beings. War is a bit different because you get into a slippery slope of defending yourself and nation, but I think the last few don't completely pass the WWJD test.

Actually, I'm going to back-track on this statement. There is plenty of evidence that Capitol Punishment is supported in the Bible.

All I can say is if your religious beliefs say that having an abortion condemns you to hell or purgatory or whatever other nasty you can dream up why not just be smug in your knowledge that they're knackered and you're on your way to divine happiness

You know I really kind of agree with you and I consider myself pro-life. I almost question whether I'm really pro-life because I don't really see the need to make it illegal based on the point you just made. Maybe I'm just anti-abortion, but then I know pro-choice people who also call themselves anti-abortion. Hmmmm.

and let us do what God intended and have freedom of CHOICE

Based on that, you could say that God gave Adam and Eve the "CHOICE" as to whether or not to take the apple.

Every choice has it's consequeces!

[ILIKEALLCAPS 0]

Ok fine, I see the need for clarification, so here's what we're all lacking:

The following will describe a "decent" life, according to CAPS, who is the final arbiter (as you all should know by now).

Religion is now mandatory. You shall change religion on a daily basis. We're talking major change, not semantic change. (i.e. Christian to Muslim to Hindu to Wiccan to Satanist to Buddhist to Voodoo). You will be allotted 1 free religion day a month, but other than that day, you are not alowed to be following the same religion more than 1 time in any given 7 day period.

On January 1st of every year, there will be a lottery type drawing for everyone over the age of 13. You will draw a number from 1 to 100. If you draw a 7, you will have an abortion forced upon you. If you draw 13, 31, or 71 you will adopt a child. If you draw any number ending in 5 you will serve in the military. If you draw 99, you will report to the nearest suicide clinic for immediate termination.

The wearing of undergarments is optional. French maids outfits are mandatory on Fridays, optional other days. (yes, this includes men).

If you want to not have anyone be a burden on yourself, you will have that option. However, you will lose the right to use anything that's publicly funded. This includes roads, electricity, television, the internet, police, fire, other emergency services and most other things you think are nice and convenient.

Everyone will have a curfew of 8pm. You must be home at 8, no exceptions. It is your duty as a citizen to go out an make sure your neighbors are not violating curfew, even though you will be violating curfew to do this, and will be subject to execution for it. After all, every good citizen must be overly interested in what other people are doing that has no impact on their own lives.

Money is now outlawed. To begin this program you should all send your money to me. This will simplify your lives. It will be a blessing for you all to not have to think for yourselves.

If you would all only follow these simple rules, you too could be living a "decent" life.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If you want to not have anyone be a burden on yourself, you will have that option. However, you will lose the right to use anything that's publicly funded. This includes roads, electricity, television, the internet, police, fire, other emergency services and most other things you think are nice and convenient.

Are those folks also good to be subjected to experimental drugs, infested meats and stuff? Obviously, the FDA and it's services would not be accessible to them anymore either so the Pharma industry cut put all kinds of ####### through their system. And then they can't call 911...

I feel sorry for people who make bad decisions. If a woman chooses to get pregnant and can't afford to raise a baby, it was a bad decision. If a woman gets pregnant without being married and can raise the child financially, I still feel sorry for the baby because they deserve a daddy, but at least she isn't asking me to pay for it. If a woman gets pregnant and cant afford the child and cant give them the type of home they deserve, the only right thing to do is to put the child up for adoption.

You have to admit, people live like sh*t. They screw around, waste money, cheat on their spouses, lie, steal. Nothing has changed. There have always since the beginning of time been people who made bad choices starting at Adam and Eve. We should help them to lead a better life, not enable this #######.

Oh, but I am the one who has something wrong in his head.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you want to not have anyone be a burden on yourself, you will have that option. However, you will lose the right to use anything that's publicly funded. This includes roads, electricity, television, the internet, police, fire, other emergency services and most other things you think are nice and convenient.

Are those folks also good to be subjected to experimental drugs, infested meats and stuff? Obviously, the FDA and it's services would not be accessible to them anymore either so the Pharma industry cut put all kinds of ####### through their system. And then they can't call 911...

I feel sorry for people who make bad decisions. If a woman chooses to get pregnant and can't afford to raise a baby, it was a bad decision. If a woman gets pregnant without being married and can raise the child financially, I still feel sorry for the baby because they deserve a daddy, but at least she isn't asking me to pay for it. If a woman gets pregnant and cant afford the child and cant give them the type of home they deserve, the only right thing to do is to put the child up for adoption.

You have to admit, people live like sh*t. They screw around, waste money, cheat on their spouses, lie, steal. Nothing has changed. There have always since the beginning of time been people who made bad choices starting at Adam and Eve. We should help them to lead a better life, not enable this #######.

Oh, but I am the one who has something wrong in his head.

Indeed outlawing abortion won't make people live better lives. Might as well criminalise pre-marital sex, smoking, drinking, any form of gambling, homosexuality, pornography, failing to attend church. That would surely get people on the straight and narrow! Sounds great

[RaspberrySwirl 20]

I feel sorry for lil' ace. Do you live in the real world or in your own little fantasy world?

Oh and South Dakota is a state? Really??

That's all I got out of this thread...

::swoosh::

[Carol&Marc 0]

I would love to see the welfare system abolished,give everyone on it two years notice then POOF gone!

Better hope you're never in a position to need the welfare system. Oh or develop a heart condition, or something similar that requires daily treatment and care.

Beleive it or not but I pretend the welfare system doesnt exsist,I WOULD NEVER GO THERE! EVER! Its for the little pigglets wantin to suck the mother pig!

I feel sorry for lil' ace. Do you live in the real world or in your own little fantasy world?

Feel sorry for Ace? Nice photo!

Oh and South Dakota is a state? Really??

That's all I got out of this thread...

::swoosh::

Oh, but I am the one who has something wrong in his head.

Finally starting to come around ET? Im proud of you!

Xuse me but im tryin to get in that sarcastic frame of mind! Night all!

Edited February 26, 2006 by Carol&Marc

[Fischkoepfin 1]

But what if my God sees this differently and expects of me to cherish the human dignity and free will of each human being over my own belief? What if my God says that what happens on earth is between him and each individual and that it is not my job to interfere with the errors of others but his?

Then you are not worshipping the same God as most other people. I'm referring to the God that Muslims, Chrisitians, Catholics, and Jews worship.

I was under the impression that my God is the Christian God. I'm also surprised that you list Catholics, who after all constitute the biggest Christian church on the planet as not Christian.

We happen to live in a secular country which means that neither mine nor your religious beliefs are supposed to have any impact on the way the country functions. That is why freedom of religion is one of the core principles of the constitution and that is why the founders decided to not have a national church. That also means that a politician who is acting according to his religious beliefs and making them law is actually going against the constitution which happens to be more important in a secular country than your or my beliefs. If a politician cannot differentiate between the welfare of a secular society and his religious beliefs than he should not be a poitician because he violates that which unites us, the constitution which grants us to believe what we want.

That's right. This is why I believe it is impossible for a man of faith to conscientiously do this job correctly. But, that leads to another question. What if a man who truly believed he had the power to stop what he considers morally wrong knows he could get elected and do it. Is he not morally obligated to try to get elected?

He might feel morally obliged but that does not change the fact that if he gets elected in a secular country he would violate the constitution which then would be a violation of his beliefs. So, the only way a politician who wants to impose his morals on a secular society can do so is by inciting a revolution and installing a theocracy in its wake. Then he would have the constitutional framework for turning his morals into policy.

As to the religious rights' uncompromising attitude in terms of being pro-life I do have a question: how is it possible that large parts of the religious right support the death penalty and war both of which not only violate the fifth commendment but also many of Jesus' teachings. Why does being pro-life stop for the religious right when the baby is delivered? Isn't that a compromise?

Yes, it is. In the true spirit of living under God, human beings should not be killing other human beings. War is a bit different because you get into a slippery slope of defending yourself and nation, but I think the last few don't completely pass the WWJD test.

I know you retracted this statement because the Bible supports capital punishment. However, the way I see it, a Christians beliefs are supposed to follow primarily the laws set out by Christ and not those set out in the old testament except for the ten commandments. Christ teaches forgiveness and reliance on God's justice instead of attempting to mete out justice in God's name. I'm not saying you are wrong because I don't know nor is it my job to question you religious beliefs.

[Fischkoepfin 1]

As to the religious rights' uncompromising attitude in terms of being pro-life I do have a question: how is it possible that large parts of the religious right support the death penalty and war both of which not only violate the fifth commendment but also many of Jesus' teachings. Why does being pro-life stop for the religious right when the baby is delivered? Isn't that a compromise?

To be fair, there is an internal logic to most religious systems. I don't agree with the reasoning, but I've heard the argument before:

The death penalty is justified because murderers are no longer considered human when they take the life of another. By definition, the unborn are innocent and sinless, so the image of a mass holocaust of unborn children is considered more immoral (and apparently more shocking) than wringing hands over the life of the 'tainted' life of a murderer.

As to the war - unfortunately some people still see things through the black and white filter of good and evil.

I know that there must be some logic behind all this but it is not in the Bible which is on what the religious rights claims to base their religious system and their arguments. As to the unborn, they can't be innocent within the belief system because there is such a thing as inherited sin, I hear, as a result of the Fall: "through Adam's Fall, we're sinners all" (The New England Primer).

I usually try to be fair, but sometimes I just can't resist pointing to some gaping logical holes, especially when the claim is that of an uncompromising belief system.

The problem with christianity is that it is not uncompromising, and admittedly we are perhaps as guilty of misrepresenting the christian religion in the same way that others misrepresent Islam. Christianity is not an absolute in itself, only within certain branches that hold their moral values above those of everybody else. The fact that there is so much diversity within the christian religion is what gives it its relevance (though the absolutists will doubtless take issue with that). Its also a mystery to me why so many christians take more inspiration from the old testament than the new - which is really the only way you can rationalise the whole abortion vs. capital punishment thing. What it comes down to with abortion is the lives of unborn children having more 'value' than that of convicted murderers.

On a separate point, most self-avowed atheists (in the west) are little more than non-practicing christians - who have been brought up in predominantly christian countries, surrounded by a lifetime of christian ideology.

Exactly my thoughts. There are many groups of Christians, but it is those of the religious right who most loudly claim to be the right and only kind, which leads to a lot of confusion. Rather than accepting the schismatic nature of Christianity as a historical fact, people, whether "self-styled atheists" or "true believers," pretend that the schisms of the past never existed and aim to present a single version of Christianity. As to the problem of the laws of the old testament overriding those of the new testament, I think it is a question of fear of disorder. The old testament sketches out the rules of human society very clearly, just like the Islamic law of the quran. The new testament, on the other hand, is very wobbly and its laws threaten any exsting social order because they are anti-hierarchic and emphasize pacificism over all else. Not a very good philosophy for imperialist societies...

[Sister Fracas 5]

But what if my God sees this differently and expects of me to cherish the human dignity and free will of each human being over my own belief? What if my God says that what happens on earth is between him and each individual and that it is not my job to interfere with the errors of others but his?

Then you are not worshipping the same God as most other people. I'm referring to the God that Muslims, Chrisitians, Catholics, and Jews worship.

I was under the impression that my God is the Christian God. I'm also surprised that you list Catholics, who after all constitute the biggest Christian church on the planet as not Christian.

I'm glad someone else noticed Catholics separate from Christians in that list (I'm thinking Dalegg just made a booboo there though and DOES think Catholics are Christians)... but oddly enough there are Christians who don't consider Catholics as the "right kind" of Christians... Yep, I've seen it here on VJ... ahhh, but that's for another thread I suppose...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I would love to see the welfare system abolished,give everyone on it two years notice then POOF gone!

Better hope you're never in a position to need the welfare system. Oh or develop a heart condition, or something similar that requires daily treatment and care.

Beleive it or not but I pretend the welfare system doesnt exsist,I WOULD NEVER GO THERE! EVER! Its for the little pigglets wantin to suck the mother pig!

Bizarrely enough not everyone who takes welfare is a lazy parasite who wants other people to pay their way instead of getting a job.

Life is not a stereotype...

[ChristinaM 0]

There are none so blind as those who will not see, Fishdude. You're arguing with a lost cause who will accept what the BS media and the Church say. There's no interest there in learning, thinking outside that 2-inch box.

I just find it sad that some people can go through there life like that without ever questioning.

[Fuzzness 2]

There are none so blind as those who will not see, Fishdude. You're arguing with a lost cause who will accept what the BS media and the Church say. There's no interest there in learning, thinking outside that 2-inch box.

I just find it sad that some people can go through there life like that without ever questioning.

AGREED!!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Unfortunately the administration relies on people not knowing the facts about issues in the news.

What I don't understand is why they spend so much time attacking people who raise contrary opinions, rather than the opinions themselves.

I suspect there's some patriotic "How dare you criticise MY president" indignation going on there. They need to realise that Bush et al is EVERYONE's president, and not everyone thinks he's marvellous.

[Annman 0]

For everyone against abortion. Imagine that you have a daughter. She's 18. She decides it's time to have sex like everybody does. She ends up pregnant. To ashamed to tell mom and dad she talks to her best friend how knows somebody else's best friend who knows somebody who performs illegal abortions.

Your daughter decides to go get the abortion.Better then dissapoint mom and dad and everyone who knows her.After two days she bleeds to death.

While you ar buying the cuffin wouldn't you wish abortions were legal?