Is this it?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I am against abortion and that is why YOU can't have one.

I am also against murder and you can't do it. Is that selfish also??

Why are you comparing apples and oranges? And what's your obsession with pushing your belief system onto everyone else by having it encoded in the law? Why can't you accept that not everyone feels and thinks the way you do?

I'm not pushing anything on anyone unless my posts are making you feel pressured. I'm stating what I believe, same as everyone else. People are saying "well, what about this and what about that?" and I'm answering the questions as they come.

So, you are pro-choice although personally staunchly anti-abortion? In other words: An abortion is something you would not ever consider but you do understand and accept that others may feel differently and you oppose the government interfering in this most personal part of a person's life. While the law that initiated this thread mostly agrees with your personal view on abortion, it does not agree with your stand that the state government (or any other government) ought to legislate those morals onto the population. If so, we're right on the same page.

If you are in support of this law or others like it, then you're pushing your belief system onto others.

[keltic 1]

I'm not pushing anything on anyone unless my posts are making you feel pressured. I'm stating what I believe, same as everyone else. People are saying "well, what about this and what about that?" and I'm answering the questions as they come.

As far as apples and oranges, they are not different to me. Abortion in my eyes is murder. As not pretty and unfriendly as that may sound, that's what I think. There is something living, and we take that life. I really don't know how you could see it any other way.

we are talking about laws here... not just personal opinions... as ET stated before, law has to be based on fact... not theory or opinion... in your eyes, abortion is murder... probably based on religious views regarding when a soul is imparted to a being... but scientifically, there is not a definitive answer... and although i am a christian and have my own personal beliefs, i also have to realize that all citizens of this country are NOT... and do not share my beliefs... so whats left is the law...

once a being is living and breathing outside a womb, there is no scientific question of life... thats how its different

if you want to have laws reflect your personal belief rather than a nonbiased scientific basis... that is pressing your beliefs on others... and you have every right to believe what you wish for yourself... but you have to also let others believe what they wish as well... thats freedom

[ace13 0]

you asked ONE person and you think that constitutes the entire population of women who have had abortions???

Ok, you are having a baby. Aweful senario...If someone came by and hit you in the stomach with a baseball bat and killed your baby, would you call that manslaughter or just assault? How should the attacker be tried? Is yours considered a baby because you want it?

I am against abortion and that is why YOU can't have one.

I am also against murder and you can't do it. Is that selfish also??

Why are you comparing apples and oranges? And what's your obsession with pushing your belief system onto everyone else by having it encoded in the law? Why can't you accept that not everyone feels and thinks the way you do?

I'm not pushing anything on anyone unless my posts are making you feel pressured. I'm stating what I believe, same as everyone else. People are saying "well, what about this and what about that?" and I'm answering the questions as they come.

As far as apples and oranges, they are not different to me. Abortion in my eyes is murder. As not pretty and unfriendly as that may sound, that's what I think. There is something living, and we take that life. I really don't know how you could see it any other way.

[faith 0]

you asked ONE person and you think that constitutes the entire population of women who have had abortions???

Ok, you are having a baby. Aweful senario...If someone came by and hit you in the stomach with a baseball bat and killed your baby, would you call that manslaughter or just assault? How should the attacker be tried? Is yours considered a baby because you want it?

Mine's a baby because he has already developed all major organs, brain, etc. Gestational age determines when it's a baby. As far as your ridiculous and insulting question, anyone in the state of illinois would be tried on both assault and murder charges. It's happened, although not to me.

What does your question have to do with personal reasons for abortions?

[ace13 0]

you asked ONE person and you think that constitutes the entire population of women who have had abortions???

Ok, you are having a baby. Aweful senario...If someone came by and hit you in the stomach with a baseball bat and killed your baby, would you call that manslaughter or just assault? How should the attacker be tried? Is yours considered a baby because you want it?

Mine's a baby because he has already developed all major organs, brain, etc. Gestational age determines when it's a baby. As far as your ridiculous and insulting question, anyone in the state of illinois would be tried on both assault and murder charges. It's happened, although not to me.

What does your question have to do with personal reasons for abortions?

Why is it a baby sometimes and sometimes not? In ET's signature it reads "I'm...." Not it or the blob of cells and tissue. It is a baby!

[ChristinaM 0]

Why does it affect you what anyone else does with their body, MissLiss? What difference does it make to your life if somebody else has an abortion? In real terms, it makes more of a difference to you if nobody has an abortion, in the wider sense.

That's what I don't understand about this whole thing. Why the desire to get that involved in someone else's life? Why not live as you feel is right, and let others do the same?

Doesn't affect me what someone else does with their body. DOES affect me what someone else does to a child's body. A child who cannot defend themself. That bothers me. A LOT. And I don't care whether or not the child is developed or not to live outside the womb. It's a PERSON. Someone's baby. Someone's little girl or boy who they decided was not worth living.

My apologies, I actually had to do some work at work for a minute there!

What bothers me (a lot) about your point of view is that you (and many other pro-lifers) cannot distinguish a "person" and "child" from an embryo. As far as I know, we're not talking about late-term abortions here, we're talking about abortion in general. We're talking about a bunch of cells. To me, you can't call someone a "person" that early.

Your gut feeling is that life begins at conception, but even scientists can't agree on exactly where life begins, and as someone mentioned earlier, a foetus is not even remotely viable until 23 weeks at the earliest. As far as I remember, most abortions happen much, much earlier than that. I cannot consider that we're talking about "life" and a "person" in the majority of these cases.

Long story short, I miscarried at 18. Had I not buried my head in the sand about the whole affair, I would have had an early abortion. Not because I decided that I wasn't ready for a baby, or because I couldn't afford to have a baby, or because I wanted to keep on living it up and go to college. But because I want more for my child than living in a council house as a single mother with no education on welfare. Plenty of people do it, and good for them. If that makes me selfish for wanting more than the bare minimum to give to my child, then so be it. I can deal with that, and I will sleep tonight, and tomorrow night, and the night after. That's what a lot of these so-called "selfish social reasons" are - wanting to give a child more than you can at that moment in time.

At the end of the day, it comes down to quality of life or quantity. Pro-life = quantity with no regard to quality.

[meddykomp 0]

The entire premise on this law cannot be based on the scientific. It boils down to morality and the majority of it comes from religious beliefs. Last I knew, we had freedom of religion in this country.

[faith 0]

you asked ONE person and you think that constitutes the entire population of women who have had abortions???

Ok, you are having a baby. Aweful senario...If someone came by and hit you in the stomach with a baseball bat and killed your baby, would you call that manslaughter or just assault? How should the attacker be tried? Is yours considered a baby because you want it?

Mine's a baby because he has already developed all major organs, brain, etc. Gestational age determines when it's a baby. As far as your ridiculous and insulting question, anyone in the state of illinois would be tried on both assault and murder charges. It's happened, although not to me.

What does your question have to do with personal reasons for abortions?

Why is it a baby sometimes and sometimes not? In ET's signature it reads "I'm...." Not it or the blob of cells and tissue. It is a baby!

When did I say that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't a baby? I said gestational age determines a whole lot. Plus, technically, the being inside me is a fetus, not a baby. It's not a baby until birth, and that is the official position in the eyes of the specialists. I CHOOSE to call it a baby, because it's a bonding thing.

And again, personal reasons??

[Jaylen Brit 0]

Pro-choice too - like my other half who posted a few pages back (wow this just grew and grew!)

Like him, I dont advocate abortion but I would never presume to tell another woman that she couldn't have one - that's not my business, its her and her partners.

I see stories about babies abandoned, abused, beaten, tortured by people who clearly don't want and can't deal with a child and Id say THIS was more an area we should be getting upset about.

A girl I used to work with couldn't have children - she could but having one wouldhave killed her - she was born with damaged kidneys, one of which was removed.

She DID get pregnant - the Docs refused to sterilise her due to her age (ditto her husband - they were 23 and 21) - and had to have an abortion as it wuld have killed both her AND the baby as her body couldn't cope with the strain of pregnancy. If she wasn't able to have one she would have died. There was no doubt in her Docs mind about that.

They would love to adopt but her health problems have ruled them out of that too.

Maybe anti-choice people ( I refuse to use the term pro-life, sorry) want to ban IVF too - that way all the babies not aborted under their draconian vision of society can be adopted by rich or well off people (babies cost alot you know) who have space in their homes for them and are currently charging down the doors of orphanages to adopt one..wait..you say they AREN'T? But apprently they are a HUGE movement?!

Curious...

[ChristinaM 0]

Maybe that's the answer - if we outlaw abortion, we also outlaw any kind of fertility treatment in order to create some balance between "supply and demand".

Strange, I don't think that'll fly....

Edited February 23, 2006 by clmarsh

[keltic 1]

The entire premise on this law cannot be based on the scientific. It boils down to morality and the majority of it comes from religious beliefs. Last I knew, we had freedom of religion in this country.

yes, we do have freedom of religion... which means that a christian cant be persecuted for not following the beliefs of the jews or muslims...

but it also means that atheists or wiccans have freedom of religion too... and cant be forced to follow the beliefs of christians

[Traviesa 0]

I actually don't think abortion should be outlawed, even though like you said ET, I am very personally against it. I know that abortions will happen, whether they are legal or not. Just like people cross the border every day illegally or commit murder every day. Things will happen whether there's a law against it or not. I personally would rather the women who have an abortion live to remember it. Just like I am against the death penalty-I think people who commit murder should live to remember it every day of their life. It's in their own heart and soul whether or not they are truly at peace with that decision or whether they spend their time thinking about what might have been. I will confess that I have used the morning after pill on several occasions. The Christian center told me it was an abortion pill. Turns out it's not, but I wouldn't have done it if it was. Turns out that if a baby is already conceived, the morning after pill doesn't work. But there are still sometimes when I think "what if" I had left things up to chance. Could I have been blessed to create a life? Maybe, I'll never know. But what I do know is that as difficult as it is going to be for me to conceive, I will never again let that opportunity slip throught my fingers. And just like He always has, God will provide a way for me and my future family.

[meddykomp 0]

The entire premise on this law cannot be based on the scientific. It boils down to morality and the majority of it comes from religious beliefs. Last I knew, we had freedom of religion in this country.

yes, we do have freedom of religion... which means that a christian cant be persecuted for not following the beliefs of the jews or muslims...

but it also means that atheists or wiccans have freedom of religion too... and cant be forced to follow the beliefs of christians

I am in complete agreement with you on that keltic. The parallel between these scenarios is amazing. The pro-choice people would never tell someone that wouldnt get an abortion that they are wrong in making that decision, but the pro-life are right there to tell you how wrong you are for making that choice. Wiccans in general believe in personal religious beliefs and while many are quick to defend their point of view, they generally believe that each person should make their own choice and never try to force their beliefs on others. Lost count of the christians who have told me I am going to hell because I don't believe the same things they do.

[ChristinaM 0]

I will confess that I have used the morning after pill on several occasions. The Christian center told me it was an abortion pill. Turns out it's not, but I wouldn't have done it if it was.

MissLiss, that's a contradiction. Please can you clarify for me?

[Traviesa 0]

I will confess that I have used the morning after pill on several occasions. The Christian center told me it was an abortion pill. Turns out it's not, but I wouldn't have done it if it was.

MissLiss, that's a contradiction. Please can you clarify for me?

Sorry, I don't follow. Which part is contradictory??

Well, to say it in other words, I went to the Christian pregnancy help center and they told me the morning after pill is an abortion pill. I went on a fact-finding mission and found out it's NOT an abortion pill, that it won't abort if the fetus is already implanted. So therefore I was ok to take it.

Ok I thought of a good way to put it: like condoms, birth control pills, etc....the morning after pill is PREVENTATIVE as opposed to CORRECTIVE.