Bills for voter ID's and border fence.

[GaryC 7]

I am glad to see these bills getting attention!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060921/ap_on_go_co/immigration

[homesick_american 1]

I agree with this too.

Anyone have any theories as to why illegal immigration has exploded under Bush when it's such a national security issue and Bush is supposedly winning the war on terror?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I agree with this too.

Anyone have any theories as to why illegal immigration has exploded under Bush when it's such a national security issue and Bush is supposedly winning the war on terror?

I've gotten laughed at here by others for stating this, but there is strong evidence that NAFTA caused a huge influx of illegal immigrants. Of course there has been a lax in enforcing the laws, but that has existed for a long time now. The Conservatives are divided on this issue because on one hand, business benefits from the cheap labor, but the neo-cons have made it a national security issue and see illegal immigration as a security threat. I personally think that if we aren't united in also protecting American jobs from going overseas, then we're never going to properly address the bigger issue - that the free market is in a relentless quest for cheap labor. Until everyone sees that elephant in the closet, illegal immigration will be a ongoing issue.

[GaryC 7]

I've gotten laughed at here by others for stating this, but there is strong evidence that NAFTA caused a huge influx of illegal immigrants. Of course there has been a lax in enforcing the laws, but that has existed for a long time now. The Conservatives are divided on this issue because on one hand, business benefits from the cheap labor, but the neo-cons have made it a national security issue and see illegal immigration as a security threat. I personally think that if we aren't united in also protecting American jobs from going overseas, then we're never going to properly address the bigger issue - that the free market is in a relentless quest for cheap labor. Until everyone sees that elephant in the closet, illegal immigration will be a ongoing issue.

Your statement contradicts itself. "I personally think that if we aren't united in also protecting American jobs from going overseas, then we're never going to properly address the bigger issue..." That statement says you think that free markets make our jobs go overseas. Then this: "but there is strong evidence that NAFTA caused a huge influx of illegal immigrants...". So if our jobs are going overseas then why are people coming here for jobs? Free markets are what makes our democracy work. You can't let the few (govenment) control how business run. What you are advocating is isolationism and socialism. That isn't America.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've gotten laughed at here by others for stating this, but there is strong evidence that NAFTA caused a huge influx of illegal immigrants. Of course there has been a lax in enforcing the laws, but that has existed for a long time now. The Conservatives are divided on this issue because on one hand, business benefits from the cheap labor, but the neo-cons have made it a national security issue and see illegal immigration as a security threat. I personally think that if we aren't united in also protecting American jobs from going overseas, then we're never going to properly address the bigger issue - that the free market is in a relentless quest for cheap labor. Until everyone sees that elephant in the closet, illegal immigration will be a ongoing issue.

Your statement contradicts itself. "I personally think that if we aren't united in also protecting American jobs from going overseas, then we're never going to properly address the bigger issue..." That statement says you think that free markets make our jobs go overseas. Then this: "but there is strong evidence that NAFTA caused a huge influx of illegal immigrants...". So if our jobs are going overseas then why are people coming here for jobs? Free markets are what makes our democracy work. You can't let the few (govenment) control how business run. What you are advocating is isolationism and socialism. That isn't America.

Gary, I've said this before - I'm all in favor of market capitalism as long as there's a referee to ensure that everyone's playing by the rules. Ironically, free market capitalism is doing more for communist China's economy than anything - so it's a bit disengenuous to say that wanting to protect American jobs is socialism. China restricts imports for their country to protect their economy. We export raw materials to China lopsidedly and they turn around and produce exports made with those materials - which America is the biggest consumer of those goods made from cheap labor. But that's getting a bit off track. The influx of illegal immigrants due to NAFTA from what I've read is because local economies south of the border weren't able to survive. What I'm trying to state is that if we are truly concerned about illegal immigration, then we have to address the larger issue. You can't ignore the fact that illegals migrate here looking for jobs, and the types of jobs (unskilled labor) they can do are plentiful which keeps them coming. So to want regulation on one end of it -banning illegal workers on American soil, you've got to address the issue of cheap labor and how market forces pull us in that direction. The government does have a responsability to protect American jobs or our economy will crumble and along with it this country. The economy in the larger context is a national security issue.

[GaryC 7]

I don't understand why you are so worried about jobs going overseas. We are at full employment now. Everyone that really wants a job has one. Wages are going up. The economy is booming. The stock market is close to an all time high. I just don't see what your problem is with a free market society. Seems to be working great! That is why we are being flooded with people looking for jobs. Because we have them!

THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION: AUGUST 2006

Total nonfarm payroll employment increased by 128,000 in August, and the

unemployment rate was little changed at 4.7 percent, the Bureau of Labor

Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. Payroll employ-

ment grew notably over the month in education and health services; several

other industries had modest increases. Average hourly earnings rose by 2

cents, or 0.1 percent, in August following larger gains in the prior 2 months.

Unemployment (Household Survey Data)

The number of unemployed persons (7.1 million) and the unemployment rate (4.7

percent) were essentially unchanged in August. A year earlier, the number of un-

employed persons was 7.4 million, and the jobless rate was 4.9 percent.

Over the month, the unemployment rates for most major worker groups--adult men

(4.1 percent), adult women (4.1 percent), teenagers (16.2 percent), whites (4.1 per-

cent), and Hispanics (5.3 percent)--showed little or no change. The jobless rate for

blacks declined to 8.8 percent in August. The unemployment rate for Asians was 2.9

percent, not seasonally adjusted. (See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)

Total Employment and the Labor Force (Household Survey Data)

Both total employment (144.6 million) and the employment-population ratio

(63.1 percent) were essentially unchanged in August. The labor force partici-

pation rate held at 66.2 percent. (See table A-1.)

Source: US Department of Labor

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Gary, I've said this before - I'm all in favor of market capitalism as long as there's a referee to ensure that everyone's playing by the rules. Ironically, free market capitalism is doing more for communist China's economy than anything - so it's a bit disengenuous to say that wanting to protect American jobs is socialism. China restricts imports for their country to protect their economy. We export raw materials to China lopsidedly and they turn around and produce exports made with those materials - which America is the biggest consumer of those goods made from cheap labor. But that's getting a bit off track. The influx of illegal immigrants due to NAFTA from what I've read is because local economies south of the border weren't able to survive. What I'm trying to state is that if we are truly concerned about illegal immigration, then we have to address the larger issue. You can't ignore the fact that illegals migrate here looking for jobs, and the types of jobs (unskilled labor) they can do are plentiful which keeps them coming. So to want regulation on one end of it -banning illegal workers on American soil, you've got to address the issue of cheap labor and how market forces pull us in that direction. The government does have a responsability to protect American jobs or our economy will crumble and along with it this country. The economy in the larger context is a national security issue.

And who appoints the referee? Who decides what rules to play by? You don't trust the government to do much else but you trust them for this?? I agree, lock down the border. Give people that want to come here guest worker status to do the low paying jobs. But regulating business is totaly wrong and un-American. It never works and it never will.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I don't understand why you are so worried about jobs going overseas. We are at full employment now. Everyone that really wants a job has one. Wages are going up. The economy is booming. The stock market is close to an all time high. I just don't see what your problem is with a free market society. Seems to be working great! That is why we are being flooded with people looking for jobs. Because we have them!

Just to be clear, I'm not against a free market...so long as it's fair. Secondly, by default, free market capitalism seeks to maximize profit and lowering production costs is one factor - cheap labor being a big part of that. You cannot deny that aspect of the market. To not see it is ignoring the elephant in the closet. It is why manufacturing is all but disappearing from the American landscape. You have to look at what jobs are being created here in America on American soil. I'm not an economist but I do understand that we need a balance of the types of jobs in order to have a secure economy. You can't just look at the stats you posted and say things are just wonderful. We have a huge trade deficit that is going to bite us in the #######.

But getting back to my point about illegal immigration. Think about what you just stated - that jobs are plentiful and that's why they are coming here. Can a person who speaks little english with only the equivalent of a 3rd grade education work as an accountant?

Throughout the United States, we're losing jobs that were once the very foundation of the American middle class. These stable employment opportunities upon which proud people could raise their families are rapidly disappearing, and are, in limited numbers, being replaced either with jobs which require incredibly specialized training and advanced degrees, or jobs which bring low pay, scant benefits and little hope for the future.

Despite what some right-minded politicians proclaim, private industry is not the job creation sector; it is the profit seeking sector. If more profits can be generated with fewer employees or by sending jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, corporate leaders will certainly consider pursuing those avenues. One of the primary roles of organized labor is to convince employers that such easy fixes may prove to be financially harmful to the company and the economy over the long haul.

-----

Many of our nation's workers have jobs that depend upon the interchange of goods and services with other nations. Therefore, we cannot be opposed to global trade. However, we must firmly maintain the position that any trade agreement must guarantee the citizens of all participating nations a livable minimum wage, protections against child labor and prison labor, responsible environmental protections, and the guarantee the freedom for all workers to organize themselves into labor unions.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.as...OVF&b=99066

Edited September 21, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[GaryC 7]

Just to be clear, I'm not against a free market...so long as it's fair. Secondly, by default, free market capitalism seeks to maximize profit and lowering production costs is one factor - cheap labor being a big part of that. You cannot deny that aspect of the market. To not see it is ignoring the elephant in the closet. It is why manufacturing is all but disappearing from the American landscape. You have to look at what jobs are being created here in America on American soil. I'm not an economist but I do understand that we need a balance of the types of jobs in order to have a secure economy. You can't just look at the stats you posted and say things are just wonderful. We have a huge trade deficit that is going to bite us in the #######.

But getting back to my point about illegal immigration. Think about what you just stated - that jobs are plentiful and that's why they are coming here. Can a person who speaks little english with only the equivalent of a 3rd grade education work as an accountant?

Throughout the United States, we're losing jobs that were once the very foundation of the American middle class. These stable employment opportunities upon which proud people could raise their families are rapidly disappearing, and are, in limited numbers, being replaced either with jobs which require incredibly specialized training and advanced degrees, or jobs which bring low pay, scant benefits and little hope for the future.

Despite what some right-minded politicians proclaim, private industry is not the job creation sector; it is the profit seeking sector. If more profits can be generated with fewer employees or by sending jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, corporate leaders will certainly consider pursuing those avenues. One of the primary roles of organized labor is to convince employers that such easy fixes may prove to be financially harmful to the company and the economy over the long haul.

-----

Many of our nation's workers have jobs that depend upon the interchange of goods and services with other nations. Therefore, we cannot be opposed to global trade. However, we must firmly maintain the position that any trade agreement must guarantee the citizens of all participating nations a livable minimum wage, protections against child labor and prison labor, responsible environmental protections, and the guarantee the freedom for all workers to organize themselves into labor unions.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.as...OVF&b=99066

I beg to differ, Manufacturing jobs are not leaving wholesale from America. I work in the manufacturing industry. (Caterpillar) We are moving at full production right now and have been for quite some time. Before I worked here I worked for a company that rebuilt manufacturing machinery. There are so many small and medium sized companies out there you just will not believe it. All you are seeing is some of the old large compainies that didn't modernize and therefore can't compete going under. They are being replaced by new smaller companies that can compete. I have seen first hand when a company out-sources some of it's business overseas they realize that even though they are getting the parts cheaper the quality is so bad that they are loosing money. That is when they bring it back to the US. Cat did that for a while. Now they are doing huge capital investments and bringing it back. THAT IS FREE MARKET AT WORK!!! The ones that can't compete go by the wayside. The ones that can prosper. You can't regulate that. The government can't force it. It is business and market forces that make it work.

[PsychoKat 0]

Throughout the United States, we're losing jobs that were once the very foundation of the American middle class. These stable employment opportunities upon which proud people could raise their families are rapidly disappearing, and are, in limited numbers, being replaced either with jobs which require incredibly specialized training and advanced degrees, or jobs which bring low pay, scant benefits and little hope for the future.

Despite what some right-minded politicians proclaim, private industry is not the job creation sector; it is the profit seeking sector. If more profits can be generated with fewer employees or by sending jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, corporate leaders will certainly consider pursuing those avenues. One of the primary roles of organized labor is to convince employers that such easy fixes may prove to be financially harmful to the company and the economy over the long haul.

-----

Many of our nation's workers have jobs that depend upon the interchange of goods and services with other nations. Therefore, we cannot be opposed to global trade. However, we must firmly maintain the position that any trade agreement must guarantee the citizens of all participating nations a livable minimum wage, protections against child labor and prison labor, responsible environmental protections, and the guarantee the freedom for all workers to organize themselves into labor unions.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.as...OVF&b=99066

I beg to differ, Manufacturing jobs are not leaving wholesale from America. I work in the manufacturing industry. (Caterpillar) We are moving at full production right now and have been for quite some time. Before I worked here I worked for a company that rebuilt manufacturing machinery. There are so many small and medium sized companies out there you just will not believe it. All you are seeing is some of the old large compainies that didn't modernize and therefore can't compete going under. They are being replaced by new smaller companies that can compete. I have seen first hand when a company out-sources some of it's business overseas they realize that even though they are getting the parts cheaper the quality is so bad that they are loosing money. That is when they bring it back to the US. Cat did that for a while. Now they are doing huge capital investments and bringing it back. THAT IS FREE MARKET AT WORK!!! The ones that can't compete go by the wayside. The ones that can prosper. You can't regulate that. The government can't force it. It is business and market forces that make it work.

You work at Cat, this gives me a good point of reference between your statement and the quote from the article Steven_and_Jinky posted thus I have a question for you.

Could a High School dropout obtain a position at Cat earning enough to support a family of 6 with only one parent working, and still be able to afford to own a home on 1/2 acre lot and 2 cars, in Illinois?

Edited September 21, 2006 by PsychoKat

[Marc and Olga 0]

While many may be coming to the US to do things such as farming (see the potatoe thread from about a week ago). I belive they come here and start their own business, food carts/trailers. Here in Tucson, Arizona (about 88km from the US/Mexico border), particularly the southern part of Tucson, I live in SW Tucson, these things are popping up all over! There are 5 that I have seen in a 5 mile stretch of 1 major road! Not to mention the 1 that I have seen in this same stretch of another local road.

I posted in another thread about an undocumented (illegal) LA couple with 3 children that have been given a loan for a house because their "taco trailer" earns them OVER the average US income, roughly $44k!

Every time I see one of these trailers here, I wonder about the legality of these people running them!

I posed this question in the thread I mentioned the LA couple and I pose it again, would we, the US public at large, starve without these trailers? Somehow I doubt it, are they doing work the general public would not want to do, sure but again we would not starve without them!

The only thing I can say in their defense is that they work terrible hours, in the article about the LA couple it stated that they work 10 hour days 6 days a week!

[GaryC 7]

You work at Cat, this gives me a good point of reference between your statement and the quote from the article Steven_and_Jinky posted thus I have a question for you.

Could a High School dropout obtain a position at Cat earning enough to support a family of 6 with only one parent working, and still be able to afford to own a home on 1/2 acre lot and 2 cars, in Illinois?

I have two answers to that question. First of all, yes there are a lot of people here that have no education that are making $20+/hour doing things like welding and assembly. But your question also begs another question. Why SHOULD a high school drop-out EXPECT to make enough to support a family of 6, own a home and have 2 cars? What ever happened to personal responsibility? This is America. You get out of it what you put into it. Someone that has so little self-inititive shouldn't have all the perks that someone else gets that works at life. You see, that illustrates my point. In order for this country to work we have to improve ourselves as a people. This is the 21'st century. We are living in a hi-tech world. Someone that does not give a damn about his own future is not my responsibility or the responsibility of business to carry him. If you want to drop out of school, fine. Just don't expect to make as much as someone that finishes school. That's their choice, not my problem.

Edited September 21, 2006 by Iniibig ko si Luz forever

[homesick_american 1]

You work at Cat, this gives me a good point of reference between your statement and the quote from the article Steven_and_Jinky posted thus I have a question for you.

Could a High School dropout obtain a position at Cat earning enough to support a family of 6 with only one parent working, and still be able to afford to own a home on 1/2 acre lot and 2 cars, in Illinois?

I have two answers to that question. First of all, yes there are a lot of people here that have no education that are making $20+/hour doing things like welding and assembly. But your question also begs another question. Why SHOULD a high school drop-out EXPECT to make enough to support a family of 6, own a home and have 2 cars? What ever happened to personal responsibility? This is America. You get out of it what you put into it. Someone that has so little self-inititive shouldn't have all the perks that someone else gets that works at life. You see, that illustrates my point. In order for this country to work we have to improve ourselves as a people. This is the 21'st century. We are living in a hi-tech world. Someone that does not give a damn about his own future is not my responsibility or the responsibility of business to carry him. If you want to drop out of school, fine. Just don't expect to make as much as someone that finishes school. That's their choice, not my problem.

I agree with that. Too bad the UK can't grow a pair like the US has and kick people off welfare. It's practically a lifestyle here. I think it encourages mediocrity and laziness among less motivated people, since they know it will always be there for them. I get tired of supporting the whiners and lazybones of the world, personally. Genuinely down on your luck, that's fine; that's who welfare is designed for. On disability for four years even though you spend all day in town hanging out, no dice. On welfare because you can't get your dream job but you COULD get a job that pays the bills...get up off your ###.

[heishe 2]

Voter IDs suck. Fraud that this would supposedly prevent is extremely rare already, and there are legal voters who would have a hard time getting an ID.

[PsychoKat 0]

You work at Cat, this gives me a good point of reference between your statement and the quote from the article Steven_and_Jinky posted thus I have a question for you.

Could a High School dropout obtain a position at Cat earning enough to support a family of 6 with only one parent working, and still be able to afford to own a home on 1/2 acre lot and 2 cars, in Illinois?

I have two answers to that question. First of all, yes there are a lot of people here that have no education that are making $20+/hour doing things like welding and assembly. But your question also begs another question. Why SHOULD a high school drop-out EXPECT to make enough to support a family of 6, own a home and have 2 cars? What ever happened to personal responsibility? This is America. You get out of it what you put into it. Someone that has so little self-inititive shouldn't have all the perks that someone else gets that works at life. You see, that illustrates my point. In order for this country to work we have to improve ourselves as a people. This is the 21'st century. We are living in a hi-tech world. Someone that does not give a damn about his own future is not my responsibility or the responsibility of business to carry him. If you want to drop out of school, fine. Just don't expect to make as much as someone that finishes school. That's their choice, not my problem.

The reason I asked this was for comparison. You asked in response to my question "What ever happened to personal responsibility?". Personal responsibility is not directly proportionate to level of education or years of schooling though. Although I would agree that dropping out of High School by choice and intentionally acting to limit ones opportunities is foolish, the fact is a High School diploma without a college education or advanced degree won't get you much further than a drop out these days, and not everyone has those opportunities available, that doesn't mean they have no sense of personal responsibility.

You enthusiastically stated "Everyone that really wants a job has one. Wages are going up. The economy is booming." But I have to agree with the article Steven_and_Jinky quoted.

Throughout the United States, we're losing jobs that were once the very foundation of the American middle class. These stable employment opportunities upon which proud people could raise their families are rapidly disappearing, and are, in limited numbers, being replaced either with jobs which require incredibly specialized training and advanced degrees, or jobs which bring low pay, scant benefits and little hope for the future.

See, the dropout in my example, was my father. Believe me if you met him you would never question his sense of personal responsibility, few people I see these days carry that as strong as he did. He didn't really have a choice about dropping out, his father needed him home working in their cotton fields. He was able to accomplish what he did through hard work, motivated by his devotion to his family. Oh and BTW he did work at Cat You can't do that these days, not without a college degree.

I worked for a chemical company for 22 years and I saw that evolution take place there. When I first started there hard work and loyalty would actually get you somewhere. The company understood how valueble that was to them, and although you did need some college education be a lab technician or a chemist within the company (which they would pay for), a degree was not necessary. Instead the experience you brought with you as you worked your way up made you more valuable to them than someone with a degree but no working knowledge of the projects or research in process. As time went on I saw things change, those old value's were tossed aside and started hiring only people with degree's to fill those positions, not because they felt they were better qualified, but because it looked good on paper. And the company started going downhill.

After 71 years in the business in 1999 things got bad enough they sold out, and 2 years later the company that bought them sold it again. It's slowly dying...and if they would only remember their past they might be able to change their future.

I agree with that. Too bad the UK can't grow a pair like the US has and kick people off welfare. It's practically a lifestyle here. I think it encourages mediocrity and laziness among less motivated people, since they know it will always be there for them. I get tired of supporting the whiners and lazybones of the world, personally.

Ahh but read my follow up, just because he was a dropout didn't mean he was lazy, on welfare, unmotivated or whiney.

The difference between then and now is hard work counted for something.

Edited September 21, 2006 by PsychoKat

[mawilson 2,133]

the fact is a High School diploma without a college education or advanced degree won't get you much further than a drop out these days, and not everyone has those opportunities available, that doesn't mean they have no sense of personal responsibility.

The opportunities are there, dude. If you don't have any qualifications and you don't want

to go to school to learn a thing or two, that's your problem - nobody else's.