Iran assails two-state solution for Palestinians

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Iran and it's ally Syria along with their terrorist subordinates Hezbollah and Hamas will recognize Israel about the same time it hit's -60 below in Riyadh.

Now tell some more tales on here WoM. Just pretend that we all had lobotomy's yesterday.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Modern humans emerged roughly 200,000 years ago.

Recorded history dates back approximately 5,000 years, i.e from today ~2000CE back to ~3000BCE. All of the cultures and ethnicities and peoples on Earth which historians concern themselves with go back only that far.

The typical span of any civilization, nation-state, empire or regional hegemony in human history varies from a few short years to centuries to perhaps a millennium or two. Some examples of very long lived states are the Roman Republic (~500BC - 44BC), the Western Roman Empire (44BC-476CE), the Eastern Roman Empire (44BC-1453CE). The Kingdom of England/Great Britain is over a thousand years and counting (927CE-present). The American colonial era lasted 180 years from approximately 1600-1776 and has been followed by 235 years and counting of the glorious Republic of the United States of America.

So I think we can grant that a continuous history measured in centuries of a people attached to a land is not "brief".

So let's examine our neck of the woods, shall we?

The earliest documented and uncontroversial dating of the Kingdom of Israel is the Mesha Stele from 840BCE, discussing the powerful Kingdom of Omri. That Kingdom must have already pre-existed the Stele, so we can begin dating the Kingdom to at least 860BCE if not earlier (e.g. the Merneptah Stele, more controversial, would date Israel back to 1200BCE, 350years earlier than Omri).

This kingdom lasted until conquest by Assyria in 722BCE. 860-722: that's 138 years, and was immediately followed by the Kingdom of Judah until Babylonian exile in 586BCE. 722-586= 136years. So up until Nebuchadnezzar we have 138+136= 274 years of documented ancient Israel. A period in which Solomon's temple was built, a priestly class emerged, the Old Testament was written and became the Law of the land, and a culture based on monotheistic worship of Yahweh and sacrificial offerings was established.

Babylonian exile in 586BCE was our first "nakbah" - being ethnically transferred from our land after 276 years of residence on it.

It was followed in 539BCE by a gradual return to the land as the Persian Empire superseded Babylon, at which time Ezra and Nehemia led the Jewish people back and started reconstruction of the Temple. This rebuilding of an autonomous Jewish state within the Persian Empire lasted until the arrival of Alexander the Great and the Hellenists in 332BCE. So we have the "Second Temple Era" lasting 539-332=207years.

This was followed by subjugation of Jews by Hellenist kings, while remaining still in the land, until the creation of the independent Jewish Hasmonean (Maccabee) Kingdom from 165BCE - 37BCE - another 128 years of independent Jewish rule.

This was followed by Herodean/Roman rule of the province of Judea, again with the Jews still in the land, until the Jewish/Roman wars culminating in the Bar Kochva Revolt, the mass killings of Jewish populations in Judea and the expulsion of most of the rest in 135CE, a period of 135CE-37BCE=172 years.

The suppression of the Bar Kochva revolt and resultant exile by the Romans is our Second Nakbah, the one which lasted up until after 2000 years of exile we've come HOME.

Let's add it up. From 860BCE until 135CE is 995 years, almost an exact millennium.

During those 995 years Jews were masters of their own territory for 138 years (860BCE-722BCE) + 136 (722BCE-586BCE) + 207 (539BCE-332BCE) + 128 (165BCE-37BCE) = 609 years.

During those 995 years Jews were living in the land under the jackboots of Hellenists or Romans for 167 years (332BCE-165BCE) + 172 (37BCE-135CE) = 339 years.

And during those 995 years Jews were banished from the land during the Babylonian exile from 586BCE-539BCE= 47years.

Let's check the math:

609 years of self rule + 339 years of subjugation by occupying powers while still residing in the land + 47 years of exile = 995 years. Yup.

A thousand years of history. 6 centuries of self rule. Three and a half centuries of living as an occupied people in our own land. 47 years of outright exile. Compare that to the history of the USA, or Muslim rule of Spain, or the British Empire and I think it stacks up impressively indeed. When you say "Briefly", I respond with .

That thousand years was then followed by two thousand more of yet more expulsion, repression, occupation, denial of rights, culminating in pogroms, Inquisition and Holocaust.

My question was: “How long did the Jewish kingdom last ?“ - not “how long have there been Jewish people living in Palestine, including under the rule of other powers ?”

Archaeology and historical records simply do not support 1000 years of independent Jewish rule in Palestine - neither does your timeline, as you’ve included centuries of “subjugation by occupying powers.”

Yes, Cyrus the Great allowed Jews to return to Palestine, but this did not make it a separate political entity; it was still part of the Persian Empire. Although Cyrus allowed the Jews freedom to practice their religion and a “high degree of autonomy,” it was not an independent Jewish state. See here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Persians.html

At no time in history were Jews the only people in Palestine, nor were they the only ones to have kingdoms there (which often existed concurrently with other peoples' kingdoms in the area.)

You included the Kingdom of Judah in your timeline. But in fact, very little archeological evidence of the Kingdom of Judah has been found. How long it existed, how significant it was - even whether it existed at all - has long been the subject of debate by archaeologists and historians. Some believe it was a large and powerful state as described in the Bible, some believe it never extended beyond the city of Jerusalem and immediate vicinity, and some believe it never existed:

The genesis of the debate lies in the 19th century; it has reached a high point in the past two decades, when an important group of archaeologists and biblical scholars formed the view that in reality the kingdom of David and Solomon bore little resemblance to the biblical portrait of an extensive, powerful, united monarchy. This view derives primarily from the fact that no 10th century BCE archaeological finds exist that could corroborate claims of the existence of a magnificent biblical kingdom extending from Be'er Sheva in the south to Dan in the north.

Accordingly, these scholars and archaeologists conclude that the so-called kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity, meager in substance and sparse in population, which did not extend beyond the boundaries of Jerusalem and its immediate surroundings.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/the-keys-to-the-kingdom-1.360222

The search for evidence continues, but a consensus is by no means in yet.

Jericho is believed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, and it dates back to at least 9000 BCE. So out of some 11,000 years of known human history in Palestine, there is evidence of various independent Jewish states lasting for a total of maybe 450 years (and that includes the 63 years of the modern State of Israel. That’s what I mean by “brief.” Muslim empires held it for 1300 years; the Romans/Byzantines held it for about 900 years; many conquerors have come and gone.

In conclusion, we know how you feel.

We understand expulsion, repression, occupation. We've been there. We've done that.

That doesn't excuse doing it to anyone else, Palestinians or otherwise. If anyone should know better it is we, the Jewish people.

It's time for both Peoples' to understand each others history, each others legitimacy, and live side by side in peace.

That is all a very nice sentiment, but the problem is that Palestinians are under occupation NOW and being colonized NOW. This is the reality in the West Bank - you see what "Area C" (the illegal settlements and the vast swaths of other Palestinian lands under Israeli control) means for the prospects of a viable Palestinian state:

And the Israeli government doesn't plan to relinquish its hold on any of it.

As you know, the course on which Israel's government insists on continuing leads to only one destination: a single state. And this means Israel will face the inevitable choice: have a bi-national state with equal rights for all (meaning the end of a Jewish State,) have an Apartheid state with rights for only one ethnic group (meaning the end of a democratic state), or go for more ethnic cleansing.

Which Israeli leader will stand up to the settlers and change the fate that’s looming for Israel ? Settlers have been attacking Palestinians with impunity for years; now they're attacking Israeli Jews who oppose them - whether they are leftist Jewish activists trying to stop them from stealing more Palestinian land, or IDF soldiers trying to remove their latest illegal hobo camp.

For the Israeli government to oppose them means risking the political wrath that could bring down an administration - or even spark civil war, or an assassination as happened with Rabin.

If push comes to shove, there are not a few members of the IDF and the Israeli police forces could be expected to side with the settlers and defend them - many of them are settlers. We saw it yet again just last week at Anatot, where illegal settlers - including members of the Israeli police force - attacked Israeli activists protesting the theft of Palestinian land in Sheikh Jarrah:

If things continue the way they are headed, this is not going to end well.

I hope everyone in Israel takes a good hard look at those three choices above - because they may be facing them very soon.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Just now seeing your latest post, Scandal. ####### dude ? I will deal with your nonsense later.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Why not ask Egypt for the Sinai? Plenty of room. Defenseable borders.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

The genesis of the debate lies in the 19th century; it has reached a high point in the past two decades, when an important group of archaeologists and biblical scholars formed the view that in reality the kingdom of David and Solomon bore little resemblance to the biblical portrait of an extensive, powerful, united monarchy. This view derives primarily from the fact that no 10th century BCE archaeological finds exist that could corroborate claims of the existence of a magnificent biblical kingdom extending from Be'er Sheva in the south to Dan in the north.

Accordingly, these scholars and archaeologists conclude that the so-called kingdom was no more than a small tribal entity, meager in substance and sparse in population, which did not extend beyond the boundaries of Jerusalem and its immediate surroundings.

http://www.haaretz.c...ingdom-1.360222

There is some debate, but some studies have suggested that the Kingdom of Israel's control and influence extended south into the Sinai and a portion of modern Jordan, and north to include modern Lebanon. The Bible does suggest the conquest of numerous kingdoms in the ancient world.

http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/10-22KingSolomon.asp

Edited October 5, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

There is some debate, but some studies have suggested that the Kingdom of Israel's control and influence extended south into the Sinai and a portion of modern Jordan, and north to include modern Lebanon. The Bible does suggest the conquest of numerous kingdoms in the ancient world.

http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/soc/10-22KingSolomon.asp

Yes, the search for answers continues. No consensus yet.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Why not ask Egypt for the Sinai? Plenty of room. Defenseable borders.

Why should Egypt give up its territory so that Israel might more easily help itself to the rest of the Palestinians' land ?

[scandal 951]

Just now seeing your latest post, Scandal. ####### dude ? I will deal with your nonsense later.

I'm just quaking in my boots.

Do you worst, darlin', do your worst.

We all know you love the last word, so it's all yours.

[Dan and Judy 614]

I think what happened 1500 years ago is irrelevant to the current situation

[scandal 951]

I think what happened 1500 years ago is irrelevant to the current situation

Yeah but your name isn't WoM so your opinion doesn't matter.

My name isn't WoM either, so my views also aren't worth a hill of beans.

Face it, we impostors are just charlatans.

But don't worry the genuine article will be around shortly to set us all on the straight and narrow.

[Dan and Judy 614]

Why not ask Egypt for the Sinai? Plenty of room. Defenseable borders.

I think Egypt is planning to give that to them during the next war

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I think Egypt is planning to give that to them during the next war

The last two times Egypt tangled with Israel, Egypt got hit's clock cleaned. In '73 Israel was within a few hundred miles of Cairo with nothing in between the Israeli army and Cairo but sand dunes. Israel could have easily leveled that city if it weren't for the US and USSR stepping in and putting a leash in the IDF before they made Cairo another lump in the desert.

[Dan and Judy 614]

The last two times Egypt tangled with Israel, Egypt got hit's clock cleaned. In '73 Israel was within a few hundred miles of Cairo with nothing in between the Israeli army and Cairo but sand dunes. Israel could have easily leveled that city if it weren't for the US and USSR stepping in and putting a leash in the IDF before they made Cairo another lump in the desert.

I think 63 miles is the distance you were shooting for. Israel has always been within a few hundred miles of Cairo

[Dan and Judy 614]

Egypt is a very large country. If they moved their capital a little bit west they could give Israel the Sinai peninsula, Cairo and Alexandria and still have as much land as Texas. Then the Israelis wouldn't have to be displacing everybody in the West Bank. Sounds like a win win to me.

[scandal 951]

Egypt is a very large country. If they moved their capital a little bit west they could give Israel the Sinai peninsula, Cairo and Alexandria and still have as much land as Texas. Then the Israelis wouldn't have to be displacing everybody in the West Bank. Sounds like a win win to me.

I think we should resume the Fenian Raids. Maybe we can recapture Campobello Island and turn it into New Ireland.