Republican debate

[Fandango 1,439]

I know I'm in the minority here, but "No, not even vets." By doing so it simply shows favoritism over one group of people, further it's simply used as a manipulation to entice poor people to join the military. Don't get me wrong, I would be thankful hand over fist if we had some sort of military that protected our mainland from an attack or even thankful if we lived in an environment where militarymen were on every street corner protecting all the citizens. But That doesn't occur. That isn't what our military does or has ever done.

The US has never been attacked, thus the purpose of the military since it's existence has been to go mess with other countries. I don't support violence regardless of whether or not it's to wipe out a dictator, terrorist, etc Further, what typically happens is you have quite a bit of civilian casualties, and I don't think paying people to go to another country to kill that country's citizens is a very honorable thing to do. So no, I would never offer perks to someone that is simply doing our government's unhonorable dirty work.

I do recognize that most of the folks that join the military are the high school dropouts, kids with behaviorial issues, kids that can't get into or afford a college education, etc... thus I do support paying these kids for the opportunity to perhaps have a brighter future or get their act together. Their pay and the opportunity to go to college is reward enough for the risks they take. It's their choice, get paid more than they would otherwise and there is the chance they get injured or die... or don't. Do you realize how many perks military people get? Heck, even here we read about military folks wanting the privilege of a quick visa process. Why? So they can bring over a fiance or spouse who isn't going to be able to be with them anyhow as they are overseas somewhere? I'll support the military the day we really need their help. As far as I know, the US has never really needed them. That being said, without them then things would be certainly different, so as individuals sacrificing their time and life for the potential to need to protect us, I salute them all. For doing what they do (which isn't really their choice once they are in) I really have very little respect for anyone who would kill another human being. It's really our government and ideals that I have the issues with, not the individual folks who join. As far as I'm concerned though, it's just another job... until the day we really need them to protect us.

I am disgusted by your ignorance as to what the military does, as well as your profound lack of respect for their sacrifice. Appalled, even.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Anyone that wants a 40% national sales tax on every dollar you spend is nuts.

Spend $10,000 for the year = $4,000 in taxes

A terrible idea.

Where do you get those numbers? I keep hearing 23% in the case of the Fair Tax, with exemptions for food, labor, and other items, and a refundable exemption based on a threshold income.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_main

[웃 910]

Where do you get those numbers? I keep hearing 23% in the case of the Fair Tax, with exemptions for food, labor, and other items, and a refundable exemption based on a threshold income.

http://www.fairtax.o...name=about_main

You have an item with a $100 price tag on it.

You go to the checkout line and end up paying $130. This is a 30% tax honest and true as everyone knows.

Now pull out that old calculator and punch in $130 * .23 (for 23%). What do you get? You get $29.99999

The scam artists are trying to call it a 23% tax because of this backwards math. The price tag was $100. You paid $30 in taxes. You paid 30% on $100 not 23% on $130!!!!

I added 4% to the 30% because you have to get at least as much in tax revenue as in the current system. And this is the number that I read a few times that is the 'magical number'.

If I read 34% and not 30%. Guess what, it's probably more like 45 or 50%.

But I am sticking with the 34%....This doesn't include state taxes. So I added a 6% state sales tax on top of the 34% to get an even 40%...

Edited September 25, 2011 by Lord Infamous

[MyLittlePony 340]

Online shopping wont be fun anymore either.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Online shopping wont be fun anymore either.

Why? Even if you by it online, you have to pay the California Sales Tax, unless you haven't been paying uncollected California Sales Tax on your California State Income Tax Return every year.

[MyLittlePony 340]

Free when you buy online right? But I must be wrong I'll buy a item. I pay out of my butt every year in taxes to support the hippies.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You have an item with a $100 price tag on it.

You go to the checkout line and end up paying $130. This is a 30% tax honest and true as everyone knows.

Now pull out that old calculator and punch in $130 * .23 (for 23%). What do you get? You get $29.99999

The scam artists are trying to call it a 23% tax because of this backwards math. The price tag was $100. You paid $30 in taxes. You paid 30% on $100 not 23% on $130!!!!

I added 4% to the 30% because you have to get at least as much in tax revenue as in the current system. And this is the number that I read a few times that is the 'magical number'.

If I read 34% and not 30%. Guess what, it's probably more like 45 or 50%.

But I am sticking with the 34%....This doesn't include state taxes. So I added a 6% state sales tax on top of the 34% to get an even 40%...

WRONG! Please, read the bill or the book.

The FAIR TAX is an embedded tax. If the price tag is $100 you PAY $100. The fair tax is a 23% tax, period. If the price tag is $100, then $23 of it is tax. 23% of any price you pay will be tax. The tax is included in the price.

If an item, however WAS priced at $77 before the fair tax, its price would be $94.97 after the fair tax. 23% It is very simple math. 5th grade level and should be understandable by anyone able to vote.

5 is 1/3 of 15. Subtract five from 15 and you have 10. 5 is 1/2 of ten. You cannot reverse percentages and get good math. You get distorted math and that is what people that oppose the fair tax use.

You do not need 34% when you figure that the fair tax will tax ALL money spent, whereas the current system does NOT tax all money earned. When one takes the current federal budget and the current gross national product, the magic number is 23%

In addition part of the price of ANY good or service is embedded tax that will go away. You pay a doctor for example for an office visit. Part of that is the payroll tax on his employees he must pay. That goes away. The amount of embedded tax varies but is estimated at 17-40% depending on industry. The fair tax book provides a chart of industries and the effect of payroll taxes and other taxes that will vanish.

You also get to keep ALL your pay (no witholding) and you get a rebate each month on the tax estimated for the necessities for each person. Your tax retun will be a postcard to list the names and SSNs of your family. That is it, that is all.

We could, in fact, change to the Fair Tax and allow most of the other problems to fix themselves. Given the revenue it would produce and new business and employers, a lot of other problems would vanish.

Online shopping wont be fun anymore either.

The fair tax applies to all goods and services sold in the US by whatever method. State tax is a matter for the states. many of them do collect on internet sales.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You have an item with a $100 price tag on it.

You go to the checkout line and end up paying $130. This is a 30% tax honest and true as everyone knows.

Now pull out that old calculator and punch in $130 * .23 (for 23%). What do you get? You get $29.99999

The scam artists are trying to call it a 23% tax because of this backwards math. The price tag was $100. You paid $30 in taxes. You paid 30% on $100 not 23% on $130!!!!

I added 4% to the 30% because you have to get at least as much in tax revenue as in the current system. And this is the number that I read a few times that is the 'magical number'.

If I read 34% and not 30%. Guess what, it's probably more like 45 or 50%.

But I am sticking with the 34%....This doesn't include state taxes. So I added a 6% state sales tax on top of the 34% to get an even 40%...

You added 4% because it makes the fair tax look worse. State tax has nothing to do with it. You pay that now in addition to income tax, SS tax, Medicare tax, excise taxes, etc. You are piling on to one tax sysytem and not the other. This is frequently referred to as "comparing apples to oranges" and is discredited universally and for good reason.

You act as though we pay -0- federal tax now and this will add 23%, THEN you state that we would need 34% to replace CURRENT taxes. Clearly the fair tax is better!

Here is an example. Workmans comp, child support and other types of income are tax free. No longer. Prostitutes and drug dealers and illegal immigrants and people working for cash pay NO tax. Now they would. Tips from waitresses, cab drivers, strippers...currently all tax free. That means someone else has to pay THEIR share. Is that fair? Now all that would be taxed when they spent it. Not to mention the billions in other unclaimed income from cash businesses, write offs, depreciation and all the other corporate welfare...gone. Warren Buffet will pay exactly the same percentage as his secretary.

What about the billions and billions paid by people (not to mention business) just to comply with the current tax law? Gone! More money in people's pockets! What about all the tax implications that often stifle business expansion, development and construction? Gone. Nearly all IRS agents would no longer be needed.

Seriously, LI, it is clear you have not read the bill and are simply paraphrasing people who do not like the fair tax for their own selfish reasons. Read it, study it. You owe it to yourself to learn the facts about this and not just listen to one side.

[웃 910]

WRONG! Please, read the bill or the book.

The FAIR TAX is an embedded tax. If the price tag is $100 you PAY $100. The fair tax is a 23% tax, period. If the price tag is $100, then $23 of it is tax. 23% of any price you pay will be tax. The tax is included in the price.

If an item, however WAS priced at $77 before the fair tax, its price would be $94.97 after the fair tax. 23% It is very simple math. 5th grade level and should be understandable by anyone able to vote.

5 is 1/3 of 15. Subtract five from 15 and you have 10. 5 is 1/2 of ten. You cannot reverse percentages and get good math. You get distorted math and that is what people that oppose the fair tax use.

You do not need 34% when you figure that the fair tax will tax ALL money spent, whereas the current system does NOT tax all money earned. When one takes the current federal budget and the current gross national product, the magic number is 23%

In addition part of the price of ANY good or service is embedded tax that will go away. You pay a doctor for example for an office visit. Part of that is the payroll tax on his employees he must pay. That goes away. The amount of embedded tax varies but is estimated at 17-40% depending on industry. The fair tax book provides a chart of industries and the effect of payroll taxes and other taxes that will vanish.

You also get to keep ALL your pay (no witholding) and you get a rebate each month on the tax estimated for the necessities for each person. Your tax retun will be a postcard to list the names and SSNs of your family. That is it, that is all.

We could, in fact, change to the Fair Tax and allow most of the other problems to fix themselves. Given the revenue it would produce and new business and employers, a lot of other problems would vanish.

The fair tax applies to all goods and services sold in the US by whatever method. State tax is a matter for the states. many of them do collect on internet sales.

WRONG! The 23% is a "tax-inclusive rate".

Meaning it's really 30% tax-exclusive...The scam artists are using fuzzy reverse tax mathematics to try and fool the people.

Very simple. You end up paying $130 total and they are trying to say you paid 23% of $130 ($30 in taxes)....

It's the same thing ($30 in taxes going to government). Except you can call it 23% of $130 ($30) or you can call it 30% on $100 ($30)....You decide which is more accurate and which is not a misleading scam!

http://www.fairtax.o...Article&id=8248

Edited September 26, 2011 by Lord Infamous

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

WRONG! The 23% is a "tax-inclusive rate".

Meaning it's really 30% tax-exclusive...The scam artists are using fuzzy reverse tax mathematics to try and fool the people.

Very simple. You end up paying $130 total and they are trying to say you paid 23% of $130 ($30 in taxes)....

It's the same thing ($30 in taxes going to government). Except you can call it 23% of $130 ($30) or you can call it 30% on $100 ($30)....You decide which is more accurate and which is not a misleading scam!

http://www.fairtax.o...Article&id=8248

IF the item was $100 the day before the Fair Tax is implemented, it will cost $123.00 the day after it is implemented, NOT $130.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

IF the item was $100 the day before the Fair Tax is implemented, it will cost $123.00 the day after it is implemented, NOT $130.

From the article linked...

As the FairTax gains more national attention, questions have again arisen about whether the FairTax rate is 23 percent or 30 percent. In the toxic environment that often accompanies public policy debates, FairTax.org has even been accused by some of misleading the public, even though full descriptions of "tax-inclusive" and "tax-exclusive" calculations abound on our Web site. We hope the following explanation puts all such questions to rest -- at last.

Let’s use an example to illustrate the difference between tax-inclusive and tax-exclusive tax rates.

Assume there is a worker named Joe who earns $125 and spends all of his earnings. Let’s further assume that the government requires him to pay $25 in taxes.

If the government put a tax on Joe’s income, he would earn $125 before tax and would have $100 after tax to spend at the General Store. Thus, Joe has to earn $125 to have $100 to spend. Joe would also have to file an income tax return.

If the government put a tax on what Joe spends, he would earn $125 and would have $125 to spend at the store. Of the $125 paid by Joe to the storekeeper, $100 would be for the goods he bought at the store and $25 would be taxes that the storekeeper would send to the government. Joe would not have to file a tax return, as the storekeeper sends the tax in to the government.

Either way, Joe pays $25 in taxes and the government gets $25 in taxes. With a tax on income, Joe pays the $25 directly to the government, and with the tax on spending (sales tax), he pays the $25 in taxes indirectly when he buys something from the General Store. The General Store sends the tax that Joe paid to the government.

why are you having so much difficulty with this?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

WRONG! The 23% is a "tax-inclusive rate".

Meaning it's really 30% tax-exclusive...The scam artists are using fuzzy reverse tax mathematics to try and fool the people.

Very simple. You end up paying $130 total and they are trying to say you paid 23% of $130 ($30 in taxes)....

It's the same thing ($30 in taxes going to government). Except you can call it 23% of $130 ($30) or you can call it 30% on $100 ($30)....You decide which is more accurate and which is not a misleading scam!

http://www.fairtax.o...Article&id=8248

More from the article you link to...

We may report the tax rate as $25/$125 = 20 percent, which is the tax-inclusive rate (meaning that the tax is included in the base). Alternately, we may think of the tax rate as $25/$100 = 25 percent, which is the tax-exclusive rate (meaning the tax is excluded from the base). The 23 percent FairTax rate set out in HR 25/S 1025 is a tax-inclusive rate, as is the current personal income tax, whereas most state-level sales taxes are quoted on a tax-exclusive basis. For ease of comparison, FairTax.org gives the tax rate both ways. Both rates are relevant, since the FairTax is replacing an income tax system, and 23 percent correctly represents the tax burden compared to the current system.

we are reading the same article right? This also lins to the bill, H 25. Please read it, very interesting.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Gary and Alla

[웃 910]

More from the article you link to...

We may report the tax rate as $25/$125 = 20 percent, which is the tax-inclusive rate (meaning that the tax is included in the base). Alternately, we may think of the tax rate as $25/$100 = 25 percent, which is the tax-exclusive rate (meaning the tax is excluded from the base). The 23 percent FairTax rate set out in HR 25/S 1025 is a tax-inclusive rate, as is the current personal income tax, whereas most state-level sales taxes are quoted on a tax-exclusive basis. For ease of comparison, FairTax.org gives the tax rate both ways. Both rates are relevant, since the FairTax is replacing an income tax system, and 23 percent correctly represents the tax burden compared to the current system.

we are reading the same article right? This also lins to the bill, H 25. Please read it, very interesting.

Let me try this again (quoting the article):

"We may report the tax rate as $25/$125 = 20 percent, TAX-INCLUSIVE RATE" <-----SCAM MATH, looks good on paper as a talking point cause it's "lower"

"Alternately, we may think of the tax rate as $25/$100 = 25%, TAX-EXCLUSIVE RATE"

"The 23% (SCAM MATH) FairTax rate is a TAX-INCLUSIVE RATE (SCAM MATH)....whereas most state-level sales taxes are TAX-EXCLUSIVE"

So again...they are pulling the old reverse tax calculate it backwards bullsh!t that nobody does...So 23% tax-inclusive = 30% tax-exclusive

$100 product

$130 final price

1) Tax-exclusive (most state-level sales taxes) = $100 * 30% = $130

2) Tax-inclusive (SCAM MATH fair tax) = $130 * 23% = $30 taxes were paid if you calculate it backwards like a true scam artist!

Edited September 26, 2011 by Lord Infamous

[Danno 1,228]

IF the item was $100 the day before the Fair Tax is implemented, it will cost $123.00 the day after it is implemented, NOT $130.

THis is exactly why I am having trouble getting behind this thing.

If it's just included in the price, people don't even realize how much in taxes they are paying.

My tax plan is- forget with holdings, at the end of the year you must write a check for the full amount and send it in.

When people actually write out a CHECK OR HAVE TO TAKE A LOAN TO PAY IT... this will make people more aware of what they are paying.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Let me try this again (quoting the article):

"We may report the tax rate as $25/$125 = 20 percent, TAX-INCLUSIVE RATE" <-----SCAM MATH, looks good on paper as a talking point cause it's "lower"

"Alternately, we may think of the tax rate as $25/$100 = 25%, TAX-EXCLUSIVE RATE"

"The 23% (SCAM MATH) FairTax rate is a TAX-INCLUSIVE RATE (SCAM MATH)....whereas most state-level sales taxes are TAX-EXCLUSIVE"

So again...they are pulling the old reverse tax calculate it backwards bullsh!t that nobody does...So 23% tax-inclusive = 30% tax-exclusive

$100 product

$130 final price

1) Tax-exclusive (most state-level sales taxes) = $100 * 30% = $130

2) Tax-inclusive (SCAM MATH fair tax) = $130 * 23% = $30 taxes were paid if you calculate it backwards like a true scam artist!

Where is the 40% you stated? So the way you look at it it is a 25% tax rate?

Look, the issue is not the rate in any case. 20%, 23%, 40%. The issue is the system. The current system does not work, the current system discourages business and investment, the current system is used for all sort sof things EXCEPT rasing fund for the government to function.

Even if the rate is 40% (it isn't)it is STILL better than what we have now. You cannot focus on only what you consider the downside without considering the upside. No witholding, no current embedded tax, tax on all expenses, not only on SOME income, as it is now. Tax haven for business and offshore money just to name a few.

The fair tax is not a tax REDUCTION system, it is a tax REPLACEMENT system. No one is saying anyone is going to have lower taxes, even with the current system. The current system is getting worse, this would make it better.

Clearly you have chosen to occupy a stance on the rate of tax. You will ignore anything written and call it a scam. OK. I shall allow you to occupy that position and simply state...it does not matter.

The issue is HOW we tax, not HOW MUCH. No doubt the rate may get adjusted before implementation or modifed to satisfy your preferred method of calculation, or changed, up or down...just as our current rates have changed over the years. It would appear to be arguing over how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin. It simply does not matter.

In fact, we can simplify this by simply saying that I support the Fair Tax which is an XX% tax on consumption instead of our current income tax system. How's that? "XX" is to be determined by the needs of the government to raise revenue and is subject to change by legislation.