Surprise visits by immigration.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Your GC case worker may have sent the investigator out to verify things. They report back with their findings. if they report "Sponsor would not let me in the house, unable to verify Beneficiary's location." Then bang, no GC.

Yes, that's possible. If you let them in then it's also possible they'll find something you consider benign and innocuous, but they conclude it's sufficient evidence to deny you. For example, maybe somebody in the house is sick and spending their days on the couch. They find a blanket and pillow on the couch and conclude that you aren't sharing the same bed. Bang, no GC. So what's different about this scenario and yours? If you don't let in then you don't have to challenge any evidence they would have found when you appeal.

They don't have the resources to make casual house checks. They don't come to your house unless they're already very suspicious, and when they enter your house they're not looking for evidence to approve you - they're looking for evidence to deny you. When you submit evidence to them you get to choose the evidence that helps support your case and leave out evidence that might be misconstrued. When they enter your house you don't have that option. They can use anything they find. What's worse - ICE are federal law enforcement officers. If they find something they believe might be a violation of the law, even if it's totally unrelated to immigration, they're going to act on it.

"But I've got nothing to hide!"

Yes, that's exactly what they're going to say to YOU. "If you're innocent then you should have nothing to hide." There are thousands of people every year whose lives are turned into a living hell by a government agency after they gave up their rights because they thought they had "nothing to hide".

When a government authority challenges your rights then you should have no illusions - your relationship with that agency has become adversarial. You can surrender and give up your rights or you can stand your ground. It's your choice.

DaveE made a comment about not wanting to consider the US government to be his enemy. That's fine and dandy, but the US government doesn't ask you to give up your rights unless they consider YOU to be a potential enemy.

[Robert&Karen 264]

When you filled out the 129F or I485, the instructions on both forms tell you what you can expect. "The Department of Homeland Security has right to verify any information you submit to establish eligiblity for the immigration benefits you are seeking at any time. Our legal right to verify this information is in 8 U.S.C 1103, 1155, 1184, and 8 CFR parts 103, 204, 205, and 214." To not quote the entire thing, here is the applicable sentence. " Agency verification methods may include unannounced physical site inspections of residences and places of employment; and interviews".\

[Brother Hesekiel 2,236]

You can try to guide the blind, but only if they are willing to follow you, not if they insist in running right into the fire.

Ask any attorney if they would ever suggest that allowing law enforcement to search your property is a good idea. On the contrary, they will tell you not to talk at all as this is the only way to make sure you are not doing something stupid.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Just Bob

[newlyweds2010 208]

You can try to guide the blind, but only if they are willing to follow you, not if they insist in running right into the fire.

Ask any attorney if they would ever suggest that allowing law enforcement to search your property is a good idea. On the contrary, they will tell you not to talk at all as this is the only way to make sure you are not doing something stupid.

This is true and applies when you have an unwanted and unrequested contact with law enforcement. That's why, to avoid people who tell them to go to hell and get out of their property, law enforcement officers request a warrant, and then they slam your door open and search.

Here, instead, there is a US citizen who writes to the Government and says: "Hey, can you please give my spouse a GC? We are married". Note that the US citizen in question is completely out of the radar, and the Government doesn't even know of his or her existence, and wouldn't care less. However, because the Government cares of its citizen, it replies "sure, let me check if what you are saying - that you are married and conduct the typical life of husband and wife - is true". They go through the documents, and for whatever reason they say "Hey, it appears that these guys are trying to make a fool of us, of the almighty Government of the United States of America, the most powerful country in the world. You know what? let's go to their abode and surprise them in their sleep". Therefore, the above-mentioned Almighty sends two of its investigators to the address indicated in the forms. They gently knock on the front door, a person opens it, but instead of being welcoming, is very hostile and tells them "Get the f. out of my property, or I will exercise my constitutional right to bear arms". The two investigators leave the property and return to their office.

What do you think will happen next?

A. The almighty Government of the United States of America says: well, they exercised their right of privacy, and although in the first place we thought that they are trying to fool us, and we did not have a chance to verify whether they are legit or not, let's give them a GC. Welcome to America.

B. The almighty Government of the United States of America says: ok, these two are sketchy. We wanted to confirm their statements, of which we already had some doubts, and instead they did not let us do our job. you know what? GC denied. They can always file an appeal.

[Darnell 8,478]

I just finished reading a post where officers surprised someone at 7am.

My thoughts on this was they would have to tell you that they will give you a surprise visit at any time.

I did not know they can just show up without an indication at the interview or so.

What are our rights if they show up unexpectedly, do we have to open our home to them?

Alas, you've already been told.

It's covered in the CFR, Dave's spewed it out for you.

I do have a question, though -

why is this of concern for you, to you ?

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

This is true and applies when you have an unwanted and unrequested contact with law enforcement. That's why, to avoid people who tell them to go to hell and get out of their property, law enforcement officers request a warrant, and then they slam your door open and search.

Here, instead, there is a US citizen who writes to the Government and says: "Hey, can you please give my spouse a GC? We are married". Note that the US citizen in question is completely out of the radar, and the Government doesn't even know of his or her existence, and wouldn't care less. However, because the Government cares of its citizen, it replies "sure, let me check if what you are saying - that you are married and conduct the typical life of husband and wife - is true". They go through the documents, and for whatever reason they say "Hey, it appears that these guys are trying to make a fool of us, of the almighty Government of the United States of America, the most powerful country in the world. You know what? let's go to their abode and surprise them in their sleep". Therefore, the above-mentioned Almighty sends two of its investigators to the address indicated in the forms. They gently knock on the front door, a person opens it, but instead of being welcoming, is very hostile and tells them "Get the f. out of my property, or I will exercise my constitutional right to bear arms". The two investigators leave the property and return to their office.

What do you think will happen next?

A. The almighty Government of the United States of America says: well, they exercised their right of privacy, and although in the first place we thought that they are trying to fool us, and we did not have a chance to verify whether they are legit or not, let's give them a GC. Welcome to America.

B. The almighty Government of the United States of America says: ok, these two are sketchy. We wanted to confirm their statements, of which we already had some doubts, and instead they did not let us do our job. you know what? GC denied. They can always file an appeal.

It's not their right to privacy they would be exercising. It's their rights under the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Read that carefully. If they have a genuine reason to believe that they've been lied to (a crime) then the law requires them to convince a judge that they'll find evidence to prove this if they are permitted to search your home. If the judge believes it then he'll issue a warrant specifically itemizing what they are to search for, and what evidence (if any) can be seized. If they do not have sufficient evidence to convince a judge to issue a warrant then they have to ask you to waive this right before they can enter and search. If a judge won't believe them then why the heck should you?

You are not waiving any of your constitutional rights when you apply for a green card, and they can make a decision on your request without asking you to waive your rights. When ANY law enforcement officer asks you to waive your rights then it's never because they're trying to help you. It's because they're asking you to help them screw you.

We, as individuals, have precious little power against the federal government, and that power is dwindling every day. I would much rather face the federal government in court than to cede what little power I have left in an attempt to grovel and beg for a discretionary benefit.

Edited September 25, 2011 by JimVaPhuong

[NinjaLadyBug 23]

This is a very intriguing topic and I must say that both Bob and Jim have personally given me something to think about. It never occurred to me to deny them entry but I assumed they would have some kind of warrant anytime they would choose to approach my home. We live in a not so great neighborhood, and I am currently 5 month pregnant so letting strangers in without my husband present would really be a no no but the idea that ones privacy would be so easily violated (and I allow it due to fear or lack on knowledge) is really astounding.

Before I read this post, I thought that I would welcome a visit because it may make my process easier for them to see my family at home together, but both Jim and Bob are correct, if someone wants to bury you, they are going to look for the evidence that does in fact damn you, not that which is contrary to their goal.

On a more statistical note, are these home visits becoming more prevalent? I'm surprised to see this topic come up as often as it has been. I assumed that less than 5% of cases are taken this far and if you happen to fall into this category you have given rise to some very serious suspicions.

At any rate, good things happen to good people right - so let them on it!? Then again, I've been arrested for unknowingly driving with a suspended license (SL), because I mistakenly underpaid a ticket by $1 (YES A SINGLE DOLLAR). Found myself paying hundreds in fees only to have to go through a HEAP of trouble getting the fees reimbursed, license reinstated with no apology from the local government for not sending out any notice of the actions that had been taken against me. When the officer arrested me, he didn't care that I had no idea I was driving with a SL, impounded my vehicle, threw me in the back of his car and only then proceeded to find out that I owed $1 to the state my license was issues to. He was not interested in the fact that I was a simply going to school that day, had never been arrested, was terrified out of my mind, was not sent any notice and had never done anything criminal in my life. He was there to do a single thing and the consequences to my life thereafter were not his problem... Really I don't blame him for doing his job, but it sure wasn't pleasant to have to go through all that.

My convoluted point is, sure - good things happen to good people, but sometimes the government does not so great things to good people too, and protecting yourself when you can is not at all a bad idea...

[newlyweds2010 208]

It's not their right to privacy they would be exercising. It's their rights under the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Read that carefully. If they have a genuine reason to believe that they've been lied to (a crime) then the law requires them to convince a judge that they'll find evidence to prove this if they are permitted to search your home. If the judge believes it then he'll issue a warrant specifically itemizing what they are to search for, and what evidence (if any) can be seized. If they do not have sufficient evidence to convince a judge to issue a warrant then they have to ask you to waive this right before they can enter and search. If a judge won't believe them then why the heck should you?

You are not waiving any of your constitutional rights when you apply for a green card, and they can make a decision on your request without asking you to waive your rights. When ANY law enforcement officer asks you to waive your rights then it's never because they're trying to help you. It's because they're asking you to help them screw you.

We, as individuals, have precious little power against the federal government, and that power is dwindling every day. I would much rather face the federal government in court than to cede what little power I have left in an attempt to grovel and beg for a discretionary benefit.

Ok. Do you have specific knowledge of somebody who sent the USCIS investigators to hell and is still here as a resident?

They are not asking you to waive any constitutional right when you apply to a GC, in fact you can tell them to go away at any time, and they will never try to get a warrant if you don't let them in. However, since you applied to get a benefit, if you do not provide convincing evidence that you are entitled to get that benefit, more than likely you will not get it.

Edited September 26, 2011 by newlyweds2010

[newlyweds2010 208]

Also, didn't they violate your rights when they poked you with a needle to get your blood at the medical exam, or when they took your fingerprints? Through your blood and fingerprints they have access to more information than through a search of your dirty underwear. However, I am quite sure that nobody told them that they are not allowed to take our blood or our fingerprints, because we are no criminals at the precinct. If you did object, I am sure they did not try to obtain a warrant from a judge to force you to give your blood. In fact, they wouldn't care. Again, if you apply to get something, you play by the rules.

[TBoneTX 45,291]

since you applied to get a benefit, if you do not provide convincing evidence that you are entitled to get that benefit, more than likely you will not get it.

There are ways, and there are ways.

SCENARIO #1

USCIS Evaluator to Field Agents: "I need to get this file off my desk. Pay this address a home visit and find me a reason to deny their case."

Field Agents (knocking on door at 4 a.m.): "We're from the Government, and we're here to help in regard to your Green Card application. May we come in?"

You: "To help me? Of course!"

Agents to Evaluator after search of premises: "You can deny them for this and this or for this and this."

Evaluator: "Thanks, guys!"

SCENARIO #2

USCIS Evaluator to Field Agents: "I need to get this file off my desk. Pay this address a home visit and find me a reason to deny their case."

Field Agents (knocking on door at 4 a.m.): "We're from the Government, and we're here to help in regard to your Green Card application. May we come in?"

You: "Thank you for your interest, gentlemen, but we never open the door for anyone at this hour. Please leave your card, and we'll contact you during the day."

Agents: "But we want to come in now."

You: "Thank you for your interest, but we never open the door for anyone at this hour. Please leave your card."

Agents: "But we want to come in now. Why are you denying us permission to enter?"

You: "It's nothing personal with you at all, sir; we never open the door for anyone at this hour. Please leave your card."

Evaluator to Agents upon their return to the office: "Well, what do you have for me?"

Agents: "They wouldn't let us in; said they don't open the door for anyone at that hour. Frankly, I probably wouldn't, either. Did say that they'd call during the day. Looks like you'll have more work to do on your own."

Evaluator: "That sucks, but they exercised their rights."

Also, didn't they violate your rights when they poked you with a needle to get your blood at the medical exam, or when they took your fingerprints? Through your blood and fingerprints they have access to more information than through a search of your dirty underwear. However, I am quite sure that nobody told them that they are not allowed to take our blood or our fingerprints, because we are no criminals at the precinct. If you did object, I am sure they did not try to obtain a warrant from a judge to force you to give your blood. In fact, they wouldn't care. Again, if you apply to get something, you play by the rules.

U.S. citizens are not subject to these "rules." If they are, please cite the relevant case law.

[SuperDuper! 230]

Things are getting WEIRD here, people.

The USCIS agents do required random spot checks as part of their job, with their supervisor making them accountable for.

If you are a cog in a wheel in a big department, then you do your job as told, and unfortunately, the beneficiary is brought into the equation.

It's so DARN simple to understand, and no conspiracy theory required.

No need to debate it further. If you have nothing to hide, then you have no worry about the system and their random, routine checks and balances.]

[newlyweds2010 208]

There are ways, and there are ways.

SCENARIO #1

USCIS Evaluator to Field Agents: "I need to get this file off my desk. Pay this address a home visit and find me a reason to deny their case."

Field Agents (knocking on door at 4 a.m.): "We're from the Government, and we're here to help in regard to your Green Card application. May we come in?"

You: "To help me? Of course!"

Agents to Evaluator after search of premises: "You can deny them for this and this or for this and this."

Evaluator: "Thanks, guys!"

SCENARIO #2

USCIS Evaluator to Field Agents: "I need to get this file off my desk. Pay this address a home visit and find me a reason to deny their case."

Field Agents (knocking on door at 4 a.m.): "We're from the Government, and we're here to help in regard to your Green Card application. May we come in?"

You: "Thank you for your interest, gentlemen, but we never open the door for anyone at this hour. Please leave your card, and we'll contact you during the day."

Agents: "But we want to come in now."

You: "Thank you for your interest, but we never open the door for anyone at this hour. Please leave your card."

Agents: "But we want to come in now. Why are you denying us permission to enter?"

You: "It's nothing personal with you at all, sir; we never open the door for anyone at this hour. Please leave your card."

Evaluator to Agents upon their return to the office: "Well, what do you have for me?"

Agents: "They wouldn't let us in; said they don't open the door for anyone at that hour. Frankly, I probably wouldn't, either. Did say that they'd call during the day. Looks like you'll have more work to do on your own."

Evaluator: "That sucks, but they exercised their rights."

I don't work for the USCIS. what you have written may be true, or not. Would you risk it, if it was your GC?

U.S. citizens are not subject to these "rules." If they are, please cite the relevant case law.

I'm not sure I understand this. when they spend a visit to somebody's house, they check the immigrant, not the US citizen, who has every right to live here regardless.

Edit: oh, I got it: I used "you" as "somebody", or "someone". I did not intend to violate any US citizen's rights not to be pried upon.

Edited September 26, 2011 by newlyweds2010

[TBoneTX 45,291]

No need to debate it further. If you have nothing to hide, then you have no worry about the system and their random, routine checks and balances.]

Glib dismissal of feasible possibilities is unhelpful to those who might believe that such counsel is prudent.

If a LEO or a Fed asks to search your property, all sorts of warning bells should go off. There is never any real advantage to a consented search. ALWAYS refuse consent. This doesn't mean often, or usually, but ALWAYS.

"Why not let me search if you're innocent and have nothing to hide?" an agent may taunt. A good reply is, "Well, if you thought I were innocent, you wouldn't be interested in me, and certainly not at 4 o'clock a.m."

"You signed I-129F and I-485 forms that clearly state that our methods of verification may include unannounced physical site inspections of residences, and you won't let us in?" he may menacingly retort. "If that's so, then the forms certainly didn't state that the signers must automatically forfeit their Fourth Amendment rights by consenting to searches at 4 a.m. The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime. Please inform your supervisors that they're free to apply other policy methods in order to learn what they want."

Or: "It's nothing personal with you, sir, but in general discussions with my attorney, he said NEVER to consent to any search, ever. He HATES law-enforcement officers and goes after their throats in court. I'd hate to see that happen to you. He'll have my scalp if I let you in. Thanks for your interest; I'm sure that you understand."

How difficult is it to come up with SOME plausible deflection? NO ONE should let ANYONE into the house at 4 a.m. unannounced. This is the most obvious and reasonable response, and the only one necessary. How would THEY react if YOU showed up at THEIR door, demanding to rummage through THEIR stuff? They'd refuse you entry, that's what!

LEOs and Feds rely upon the public's overwhelming desire to have the confrontation end. Most people, in the hope of speeding up a LEO's exodus, will divulge, consent, placate, whatever -- ANYTHING to make him go away. While this wimpy expediency can sometimes work to that effect, you may instead further confirm the agent's suspicions, or even give him probable cause to arrest you.

The police and ICE exist to identify and arrest criminals. During ANY confrontation with either, there is at least SOME risk that YOU could be arrested. Remember, they wouldn't be talking to YOU in the first place unless YOU were somehow a potential "customer."

Fish are caught only because they opened their mouths. Keep yours (and your doors) shut!

[SuperDuper! 230]

It's EZ to get paranoid in this visa process. Going on facts and reality is highly recommended!

[katiemanny 64]

USCIS are being confused with Law Enforcement Agencies here big time. If USCIS shows up at your house, they just want to confirm that you and your Spouse indeed sharing your lives together as you've already claimed in your petition, and I strongly disagree with these guys that keeps saying that USCIS is out there to screw you. Me and my wife has been dealing with USCIS not once has these guys tried to screw us.

This is not an innocent until proven guilty situation, they don't have to prove anything to the Petition and Beneficiary. A simple answer "I don't believe you" is enough reason to be refused Immigration benefits in this country.