Fact Check: Obama Says Rich Pay Lower Tax Rate Then Middle Class.

[Captain Oates 911]

But the family with the big oven worked hard to afford that big expensive oven. Or maybe they inherited it from their parents, doesn't really matter - someone worked hard for it.

What matters is that the pizzas their oven makes are theirs - the direct (or indirect) fruit of their labor.

It only 'doesn't matter' if we are all insular and don't care about anyone else.

All we need do is ask ourselves if we care - if the answer is 'no' then we are right wingers and always will be

However, there are some right wingers who don't care, but also understand that they and their families must live in society - and if there are hordes of dirty, uneducated, violent poor people with infectious diseases who will predate on the rich person's family, then suddenly the rich realize that in order for them to live a nice life, they have to assist the poor to live in clean houses and be educated and be able to have their own jobs and support themselves.

The philanthropists of the 1800's were motivated by that kind of thinking

I quote Titus Salt who in the 1800's built a huge mill near where I lived in England >>>

The cholera most forcibly teaches us our mutual connection. Nothing shows more powerfully the duty of every man to look after the needs of others.

His mill had a hospital and a library and a school (still has - worth a visit - its a world heritage site) - and for whose benefit ? - much of it was for him - so he could have healthy literate, civilized workers

American right wingers are not even bright enough to look after the poor in the interests of the rich !

If the poor are left to go feral, they will end up taking the lives of the rich and not just a bit more tax

Edited September 23, 2011 by Alan the Red

[Obama 2012 1,714]

It only 'doesn't matter' if we are all insular and don't care about anyone else.

All we need do is ask ourselves if we care - if the answer is 'no' then we are right wingers and always will be

However, there are some right wingers who don't care, but also understand that they and their families must live in society - and if there are hordes of dirty, uneducated, violent poor people with infectious diseases who will predate on the rich person's family, then suddenly the rich realize that in order for them to live a nice life, they have to assist the poor to live in clean houses and be educated and be able to have their own jobs and support themselves.

The philanthropists of the 1800's were motivated by that kind of thinking

I quote Titus Salt who in the 1800's built a huge mill near where I lived in England >>>

The cholera most forcibly teaches us our mutual connection. Nothing shows more powerfully the duty of every man to look after the needs of others.

His mill had a hospital and a library and a school (still has - worth a visit - its a world heritage site) - and for whose benefit ? - much of it was for him - so he could have healthy literate, civilized workers

American right wingers are not even bright enough to look after the poor in the interests of the rich !

If the poor are left to go feral, they will end up taking the lives of the rich and not just a bit more tax

Do you REALLY think that government welfare works better than charity/philanthropy?

Do you realize how many people don't contribute to charity these days because of welfare?

Government wellfare is a handout that teaches no lesson. You don't see who gives the money, you don't see who is helping you out, therefore there is no incentive to get off the program.

Charity and philanthropy show real people, have real faces, and it's much harder to keep taking from someone who has face to their name and the money you're using. There are will always be those who abuse the system in one way or another mind you, but people with a conscience will work harder to better themselves where maybe they can help someone as well.

[Captain Oates 911]

Do you REALLY think that government welfare works better than charity/philanthropy?

Do you realize how many people don't contribute to charity these days because of welfare?

Government wellfare is a handout that teaches no lesson. You don't see who gives the money, you don't see who is helping you out, therefore there is no incentive to get off the program.

Charity and philanthropy show real people, have real faces, and it's much harder to keep taking from someone who has face to their name and the money you're using. There are will always be those who abuse the system in one way or another mind you, but people with a conscience will work harder to better themselves where maybe they can help someone as well.

I hate charity

My dad was a co-op van driver who earned $12 A WEEK. Because I lived in a welfare state I was given all sorts of free grants and a house and assistance - as a right. An entitlement.

Because of that, I made it to the top of my profession and flew Concorde and paid enormous taxes - much more than the benefits I received and the State got their money back dozens of times over

That's the way to run a railroad - not in the cheap, small minded, mean spirited right wing way of the American right wing

which is short sighted and socially blind

[PantomimeGoose 59]

It's more than just charity, of course, it's infrastructure. There is a good reason why the police should not be directly beholden to the wealthy. There is a good reason why the quality of someone's education should not be predicated on the whims of those who may have a vested interest in stifling competition.

The argument that people don't get trapped in poverty is silly. If you had gone to jail on felony charges, whether wrongfully convicted or not, what kind of opportunities would you have afterward? This happens to people. People get horrible diseases and are stuck with huge hospital bills. Families that have two kids and two incomes can be shattered and fall into debt if a spouse dies. People get laid off because of the economy and can't find any job, can't afford to move to get a job, and fall into debt trying to eat.

There's a psychological bias that causes the average person to distort reality, disproportionately taking too much credit for their success, and disproportionately blaming their failure on external sources. It's basically a biological mandate to congratulate yourself for all the marvelous work you did pulling yourself up by the boot straps, never realizing all the help you actually had. People who are depressed, on the other hand, are much more accurate regarding limitations, strengths, and obstacles. I wonder what the rate of depression is like among the impoverished, versus the wealthy.

[Obama 2012 1,714]

I hate charity

My dad was a co-op van driver who earned $12 A WEEK. Because I lived in a welfare state I was given all sorts of free grants and a house and assistance - as a right. An entitlement.

Because of that, I made it to the top of my profession and flew Concorde and paid enormous taxes - much more than the benefits I received and the State got their money back dozens of times over

That's the way to run a railroad - not in the cheap, small minded, mean spirited right wing way of the American right wing

which is short sighted and socially blind

You are a rarity then. A very small minority actually.

It wasn't because of that you made it to the top of anything. It was your own ambition.

[Golden Gate 530]

But the family with the big oven worked hard to afford that big expensive oven. Or maybe they inherited it from their parents, doesn't really matter - someone worked hard for it.

What matters is that the pizzas their oven makes are theirs - the direct (or indirect) fruit of their labor.

Most people work hard, but they don't all make the riches.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Most people work hard, but they don't all make the riches.

Thats because they don't have the connections. Connections can be bought. Check to see if your local representative is for sale....they are always for sale.

[Captain Oates 911]

You are a rarity then. A very small minority actually.

It wasn't because of that you made it to the top of anything. It was your own ambition.

I have always had that ambition but my point is that without educational entitlements, I could not have made it.

In the the right wing setting of the USA, I would be a truck driver now - an obese and dull headed truck driver with diabetes.

That is why Germany has had 7% growth this year - they educate and assist people. I know that some people don't take what is offered. I have had to bribe my daughter with the lure of a car to even become a bum wiper in an old peoples home. I offered her $30k to train as a nurse - a midwife - married to a doctor - beautiful home. Instead she sat around with the pierced tattooed underclass chain smoking and drinking til 2am every night while the kids stayed with their grandmother.

So yes, I know some people wont take the fabulous future that is offered them, but the ones who will, MUST be offered it and assisted in every way. That is an entitlement program and its not just right but essential for the country.

That will cost the country 30k in training, and then the country recoups 200k and a better society. Enlightened right wingers used to know this, but they have died out and been replaced with the vicious and grasping right wing who cheer when people are executed or die in the emergency room with no insurance.

In Aneurin Bevan's words, the right wing are 'lower than vermin'

[mawilson 2,133]

I have always had that ambition but my point is that without educational entitlements, I could not have made it.

In the the right wing setting of the USA, I would be a truck driver now - an obese and dull headed truck driver with diabetes.

You're selling yourself short, Alan.

I bet you would have been exactly where you are, with or without the entitlements. Just would have had to work a bit harder, that's all.

[Captain Oates 911]

You're selling yourself short, Alan.

I bet you would have been exactly where you are, with or without the entitlements. Just would have had to work a bit harder, that's all.

I could have married for money... never thought of that.. Liz Hurley...yes that's the way to do it ! She is SO boring but I could have put cotton wool in my ears.

...and Bungalow Bill - that guy Liz Taylor married - they called him Bungalow Bill coz he had 'nothing upstairs' (he claimed it was because he was a builder) - but he didn't bother with the impecunious women

I suppose it's a form of taxation on the rich - that they are predated on by the poor - either by burglars or gigolos or Michael Jackson's doctor or new york hotel maids, or property taxes or Mr O.. and then the great leveler - death. If it wasn't for death, it would be a really unfair world.

Mortality - the ultimate 'Trickle down'