Fact Check: Obama Says Rich Pay Lower Tax Rate Then Middle Class.

[slim 1,525]

Can you provide a factual explanation of your claim that "the big reason that people are poor in this country is they're paid to be poor"? About 4.4 million Americans (1.4% of the total population) were receiving welfare in 2010, and about 40 million (11% of the population) were receiving food stamps. You really think that that small swathe of the population is what's dragging us down, and that it's their laziness that's doing it?

Check out how many folks received "benefits" in the past versus how many do today.

You would think with all that money being paid out the numbers would be going down because the people would be "helped" by now. But, they're not. They increase and increase and increase. It's not like less people are poor now. More people are poor now. A lot more!

The government is not only enabling people to do nothing more with their lives than procreate, it's encouraging it! How can you get enough votes to steal money from people? Simple. You just breed enough voters.

And why in heavens name do you think rioters would be eating your lead rather than the other way around? More pressingly, why do you think "massacre" is a better way to deal with poverty and riots than preventative economic measures?

Because I have lead and they don't. If they had lead they wouldn't need to riot. Someone resourceful enough to find their own lead is resourceful enough to live without rioting for basic things like food.

Massacre is after the riot. Preventative measures are before. You can't really compare the two apples to apples. I'd love for their to be no food riots in this country but I'm pretty sure the day will come when basic services we take for granted every day will instantly stop and we'll be forced to deal with the aftermath. (Not the preventative measures that've failed. Too late by that time!)

Buy ammo!

"You're not rich" is not an argument. Try making one.

You have no right to take someone's money. None. Yet you advocate for it to be done. That leads me to believe you don't have a lot of money.

[The_Dude 1,142]

Seeing your stance on this subject Slim, shouldn't you be making payments to the citizens of Ohio? No doubt they didn't voluntarily pay for your stay.

[slim 1,525]

Seeing your stance on this subject Slim, shouldn't you be making payments to the citizens of Ohio? No doubt they didn't voluntarily pay for your stay.

The citizens of Ohio put me there (for their own protection, or so they said) and then asked me to pay back a certain amount of money - which I did. We're square.

I wonder though, should I go after them for all my lost wages, lost job, etc., for keeping me in jail in relation to charges that were dropped? At the very least they should pay me for that time, right?

[The_Dude 1,142]

The citizens of Ohio put me there (for their own protection, or so they said) and then asked me to pay back a certain amount of money - which I did. We're square.

I wonder though, should I go after them for all my lost wages, lost job, etc., for keeping me in jail in relation to charges that were dropped? At the very least they should pay me for that time, right?

No, you're not square. You paid restitution for the actual costs of your infraction. There is still a balance on your account for room, board, and court costs. The fact that you were sent rather than going of your own volition is immaterial. The taxpayers were forced to incur a cost due to your actions. How is that really any different from a 25 year old guy with no insurance who gets into a horrible accident? He will be sent to a hospital and treated.

[slim 1,525]

No, you're not square. You paid restitution for the actual costs of your infraction. There is still a balance on your account for room, board, and court costs.

I did not pay restitution. There is no balance. Where are you getting this?

Just assuming? Or, is that maybe "how it works where I work."?

The fact that you were sent rather than going of your own volition is immaterial. The taxpayers were forced to incur a cost due to your actions. How is that really any different from a 25 year old guy with no insurance who gets into a horrible accident? He will be sent to a hospital and treated.

I'd vote against sending him to get treatment as well.

Just a reminder, you're ignoring the fact that I've said several times I was held for charges that were dropped. Care to explain that one?

[The_Dude 1,142]

I did not pay restitution. There is no balance. Where are you getting this?

Just assuming? Or, is that maybe "how it works where I work."?

You were sent to a state facility for whatever reason. That costs money to house, feed, and shuffle you through the system. That costs money, money that was taken from tax revenues from the state. How many good citizens want their tax dollars to go towards the involuntary housing of a criminal versus wanting to spend that money on schools, or pay down debts? The point is, as a society, we are sometimes forced to bear the cost of certain things. If you truly don't want to have to pay anything for anyone else, then you should start by paying back the state what it cost to prosecute, house, and feed you during your stay. It was not your choice, but one that had to be made FOR you because of your actions and irresponsibilty.

I'd vote against sending him to get treatment as well.

Just a reminder, you're ignoring the fact that I've said several times I was held for charges that were dropped. Care to explain that one?

Why? That doesn't tell the whole story. Charges are dropped all the time and substituted for lesser charges, or dropped altogether because we have an overburdened system. That doesn't mitigate your culpability.

[slim 1,525]

You were sent to a state facility for whatever reason. That costs money to house, feed, and shuffle you through the system. That costs money, money that was taken from tax revenues from the state. How many good citizens want their tax dollars to go towards the involuntary housing of a criminal versus wanting to spend that money on schools, or pay down debts? The point is, as a society, we are sometimes forced to bear the cost of certain things. If you truly don't want to have to pay anything for anyone else, then you should start by paying back the state what it cost to prosecute, house, and feed you during your stay. It was not your choice, but one that had to be made FOR you because of your actions and irresponsibilty.

Why? That doesn't tell the whole story. Charges are dropped all the time and substituted for lesser charges, or dropped altogether because we have an overburdened system. That doesn't mitigate your culpability.

Society is the one who said I should be in jail. Specifically, there were two men who felt I threatened their safety and they needed protection from me.

When those two men failed to show up for court, and the charges were dropped, shouldn't the burden of any payments fall on them? After all, they're the ones who burdened the tax payers.

[Captain Oates 911]

The truth is that American Citizens don't care a damn about other American Citizens.

They go all misty eyed and hands on hearts when they raise their eyes and think of 'America', but what is 'America' if it isn't other Americans ?

Show them a black man(American) in Chicago, or an Arab (American)in Minnesota or a Cuban (American) in Miami and their lips curl with disdain and they wouldn't pee on em if they were on fire

That is the truth of America - its socially blind and every man for himself. That thinking permeates everything from the executions, to universal health care, to tax policy

Luckily I am on the beneficial receiving end of these unfair conditions and so in practical and financial terms it suits me very well to live here, but my conscience and my personal culture (that I acquired in England and carry with me), wants to take the first plane out of this world capital of selfishness and mean spirits

I guess that's what Warren Buffet is saying too - I am certainly not alone in this and the socialist Mr Obama got a big majority of Americans in the election by spouting very similar sentiments.

The best thing I can do for the USA is to throw my resources behind politicians who are socially aware and benign

[The_Dude 1,142]

Society is the one who said I should be in jail. Specifically, there were two men who felt I threatened their safety and they needed protection from me.

When those two men failed to show up for court, and the charges were dropped, shouldn't the burden of any payments fall on them? After all, they're the ones who burdened the tax payers.

It really depends upon the circumstances. Were the charges dropped completely and there is no replacement or lesser charges? If it was two guys overreacting and the police and prosecutors dropped the charges as a result, then yes, I agree with you that all those costs should go to them.

[Captain Oates 911]

Society is the one who said I should be in jail. Specifically, there were two men who felt I threatened their safety and they needed protection from me.

When those two men failed to show up for court, and the charges were dropped, shouldn't the burden of any payments fall on them? After all, they're the ones who burdened the tax payers.

So where is their shallow grave ?

[PantomimeGoose 59]

I'm not advocating for taking people's money: more criticizing the argument that, where taxes are already a reality, putting the hurt on the poor with justifications like "they're not really working hard" or "they need to learn to be more careful with their pittance so I can keep my mansion" is a productive or moral solution. This is because I have been a great many things in my life (including both poor and wealthy, though never on benefits). I'm actually what you would call "fiscally conservative" insomuch as I believe the most likely solution (if there is such a thing as a "solution") to any of of our internal economic problems is to massively overhaul and streamline most types of government service, rather than completely eliminate them. The government is wasting lots of money, to be sure.

Creating an underclass is not a tenable solution in the long term because, as I've said, disgruntled and impoverished people tend to commit crimes of necessity and/or eventually riot. Many people who are poor are actually trapped in that situation to a large and real extent. There are plenty of good anthropological works on the subject. Your argument that if they were resourceful enough to have lead, they wouldn't need to riot is just silly. A gun can be gotten for $50, but it's no substitute for a job. It won't help you get a job. But it can help you get someone else's wallet. And if you go to jail for it, your opportunities will be even more restricted.

Either we pay to help educate and employ our citizens, or we pay for them to go to jail, or we arm ourselves whenever we walk the streets and life can be like your middle school gym class forever, only with more death and less noogies for the fat kid.

[mawilson 2,133]

You really think that that small swathe of the population is what's dragging us down, and that it's their laziness that's doing it?

No, it's the Bush tax cuts for the middle class.

The cost of extending the Bush tax cuts for the so-called "rich" (individuals who make over $200k or couples over $250k) was estimated (by the CBO) to be 700 billion dollars; for everyone else - $3 trillion. (These are 10-year estimates.)

We could balance our budget tomorrow by repealing the Bush tax cuts across the board.

link

[mawilson 2,133]

what is 'America' if it isn't other Americans ?

America is about individualism - sink or swim.

[Captain Oates 911]

People like me channel their earnings into the 15% capital gains tax bracket - and then we farm our losses so that we never pay the 15% and use 3k pa losses against our other taxes at our marginal rate.

Buffet does the same.

However if a middle class person makes top rate tax bracket income one year and then makes nothing the next year because they are unemployed, they can't claim the low/nil earnings of one year against a future or past year

People who make money from investments are pampered to death in the USA while the wage slaves are at the mercy of their changing circumstances

..and the best thing is it screws up the statistics so it look like investors are in a high band when really its the tip of the iceberg and most of their earnings are hidden/offset before they even make it to the 1040 form

I spend 6 hours most days in making it work like that for me

[Kathryn41 3,205]

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