News from the Middle East

[scandal 951]

I personally wanted to ask some questions by a couple of Palestinians their views and get some reading on an opposing view. You seem to not want anyone to do this. Why is this?

Who says I don't want anyone to do this? On the contrary. Your thread was fine and respectful. Why do YOU think that I have a problem with that? In what way have I indicated that to you? Here is what I actually wrote:

Now, don't get me wrong. On many levels I think the MidEast related discussion here is just fine.

I think it's perfectly appropriate that people post on whatever topic they're interested in.

If we have people fascinated by Israel and Palestine, and bored about what's going on in Yemen or Syria, who am I to say we should have 11 Yemen threads or 11 Syria threads? We'll have threads on those topics people feel like talking about. And on that note, I feel like talking about some comparative assessment of violence in the Middle East.

I have no problem with you discussing Palestine, or whatever you like.

By the same token, I hope you don't mind my raising a discussion thread on topics *I* feel like discussing.

You know as well as anyone that the Israel side is the predominant one in our media here the Israel side will get the most play.

Do I know this? No, in fact I do not. I think depending upon which media outlet one listens to, there is a wide variety of news , opinion and analysis. Certainly, there is bias - there always is in the media. But I hear both sides (all sides, there are more than two) complain about media bias against them. This is inevitable in any emotional debate. Look at our domestic politics with similar criticisms of media bias in favor or liberals or conservatives, depending upon who's doing the complaining. Just because people say it's so doesn't always make it so.

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

I definitely respect scandal's opinions regarding Israel, he certainly is not a hawk but instead has a moderate view based on the facts on the ground, yet in many threads I feel he gets treated as if he is an extremist or something.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I definitely respect scandal's opinions regarding Israel, he certainly is not a hawk but instead has a moderate view based on the facts on the ground, yet in many threads I feel he gets treated as if he is an extremist or something.

Can you point to some examples of that, please?

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

Can you point to some examples of that, please?

From what I have read, he supports the 1967 borders.

[scandal 951]

I definitely respect scandal's opinions regarding Israel, he certainly is not a hawk but instead has a moderate view based on the facts on the ground, yet in many threads I feel he gets treated as if he is an extremist or something.

Thank you, Sousuke. I really appreciate your saying that. I feel much the same way.

For the record:

- I support Israel as a legitimate member state of the world's community of nations. I support the right of Israel to self determination and to securing its own population. I recognize that Israel is a secular democratic republic. An imperfect one, as are all efforts by men to create functioning governments. There are cases of systemic prejudice, human rights violations and deprivation of due process in Israel. Just as there are in the USA and other democracies. And there is a process in Israel for redressing these cases through courts and appeals. It's an imperfect, but functioning democracy.

- I fully support the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination as a nation state. I support their right to a country of their own as a member state of the world's community of nations. I hope and expect that Palestine will be a secular state that guarantees and protects the rights of its minorities, and that it will have institutional mechanisms for redressing abuses and infractions of those rights when they occur.

- I condemn in the strongest possible terms any deliberate attacks on civilians, no matter who perpetrates them. Targeting civilians is terrorism. It is not legitimate self defense. That of course includes attacks by Palestinian militants on Israeli civilians whether by rocket launches, or suicide attacks on Israeli buses, homes or businesses. It also includes cases of Israeli forces willfully causing loss of life to Palestinian civilians. The Israeli military code of conduct calls for exercising all possible restraint in civilian areas. Where that code is not followed I expect tribunals and inquiries to redress infractions.

- Having said that, I also recognize that Palestinian militants have deliberately used mosques, schools, hospitals and other such buildings in urban areas as cover when launching attacks on Israel and when hiding out. The militants do not wear uniforms to distinguish themselves from the local population. This is done intentionally to put IDF troops in the position of needing to enter these civilian areas in force in order to prevent attacks or locate/interdict militants who have launched attacks. I place the blame for the unfortunate civilian casualties that arise in such cases not with the IDF but rather with the militants that cynically use the civilians as human shields.

- Having said THAT, I ALSO recognize that 44 years of occupation has led to misery and humiliation for the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. I wish that Israel had not pursued its aggressive settlement policy. I wish that it did not maintain checkpoints and roadblocks and interfere so deeply in Palestinian civilian life. I wish that it had build the separation wall approximately along the contours of the Green Line and not deliberately cutting across and through Arab villages and fields. It goes without saying that I do not support the current Likud government that advocates these policies. By not supporting Bibi's government that doesn't make me a 'self hating anti Zionist Jew', as many of my friends on the Israeli right would have it. I love Israel, I am a Zionist, I pray for a change in its government and policies.

Well, that's about it.

[scandal 951]

From what I have read, he supports the 1967 borders.

I support the language of the UN resolutions 242 , 338 and onward. Which all call for using the 1967 borders as the basis for negotiation to a final settlement. Which is also the policy of the US through many administrations, and the stated policy of the Quartet.

'1967 borders + land swaps' is the effective de-facto formula which was used as the basis for negotiations in Oslo, Wye, Camp David. If and when we ever get back to a serious negotiating table again, I think that's the only way forward.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I definitely respect scandal's opinions regarding Israel, he certainly is not a hawk but instead has a moderate view based on the facts on the ground, yet in many threads I feel he gets treated as if he is an extremist or something.

You said you feel he gets treated like an extremist. That's what I asked for examples of, please.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Sofiyya

[luckytxn 2,264]

I support the language of the UN resolutions 242 , 338 and onward. Which all call for using the 1967 borders as the basis for negotiation to a final settlement. Which is also the policy of the US through many administrations, and the stated policy of the Quartet.

'1967 borders + land swaps' is the effective de-facto formula which was used as the basis for negotiations in Oslo, Wye, Camp David. If and when we ever get back to a serious negotiating table again, I think that's the only way forward.

What about reparations?

[luckytxn 2,264]

You said you feel he gets treated like an extremist. That's what I asked for examples of, please.

I would like to know this myself. I have never seen anyone call or treat Scandal as an extremist.

Edited September 20, 2011 by luckytxn

[Sofiyya 1,687]

What about reparations?

What about the right of return for displaced minorities?

I would like to know this myself. I have never seen anyone call or treat Scandal as an extremist.

He rarely even posts in WoM's threads.

[luckytxn 2,264]

What about the right of return for displaced minorities?

He rarely even posts in WoM's threads.

Very few dare to.

[scandal 951]

What about reparations?

Well, I was specifically addressing Sousuke's point of 1967 borders.

Obviously a comprehensive agreement has many other issues other than borders to be determined.

Most famously, there is the status of Jerusalem and the rights of Palestinian refugees outside of Israel/West Bank/Gaza.

There are also questions of security- the Jordan river border, the size and scope of Palestinian armed forces, disarming militant groups opposed to a peace agreement with Israel even after one is signed, etc.

There are also more 'mundane' but no less important questions of: resource sharing - in particular water, of currency and taxation, of transportation and access to Ben Gurion airport, etc.

If you are asking my personal point of view on reparations to expatriate Palestinians - yes, I do think such a formula should be found. But I think it should be regional and include as well a 'netting' of compensation for property and land lost by Jews who fled their Arab homes in Yemen, Iraq, and other MidEast countries during that timeframe. Most importantly, I think an eye to the future: to economic investment and growth, education, housing, and rebuilding - is more urgent. It's time to for the Middle East to catch up to the GDP growth in the rest of the world. It has lagged for far too long while fixated on past grievances.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Well, I was specifically addressing Sousuke's point of 1967 borders.

Obviously a comprehensive agreement has many other issues other than borders to be determined.

Most famously, there is the status of Jerusalem and the rights of Palestinian refugees outside of Israel/West Bank/Gaza.

There are also questions of security- the Jordan river border, the size and scope of Palestinian armed forces, disarming militant groups opposed to a peace agreement with Israel even after one is signed, etc.

There are also more 'mundane' but no less important questions of: resource sharing - in particular water, of currency and taxation, of transportation and access to Ben Gurion airport, etc.

If you are asking my personal point of view on reparations to expatriate Palestinians - yes, I do think such a formula should be found. But I think it should be regional and include as well a 'netting' of compensation for property and land lost by Jews who fled their Arab homes in Yemen, Iraq, and other MidEast countries during that timeframe. Most importantly, I think an eye to the future: to economic investment and growth, education, housing, and rebuilding - is more urgent. It's time to for the Middle East to catch up to the GDP growth in the rest of the world. It has lagged for far too long while fixated on past grievances.

Why should Palestinians bear the burden of Jews receiving reparations from other countries?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Very few dare to.

If you can make it here, you'll make it anywhere . . .

[luckytxn 2,264]

If you can make it here, you'll make it anywhere . . .

Yet a regular old truck driver is capable of it.