Marriage With Ahl Al Kitab Men

[Veiled Princess 1]

[b]Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.[/b]

My understanding of this has always been Islam meaning submission and not as the name of an organized religion.

How can one submit to Allah and deny His speech and messenger at the same time?

The people of the book do not accept that Allah is the same God and they do not submit to His will... if they did they would be muslim

[Bosco 1]

[b]Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.[/b]

My understanding of this has always been Islam meaning submission and not as the name of an organized religion.

How can one submit to Allah and deny His speech and messenger at the same time?

The people of the book do not accept that Allah is the same God and they do not submit to His will... if they did they would be muslim

You are missing what I am saying. I am dealing with the semantics of the word Islam as used in the Qur'an, where it means "submission", defining how one honors/believes in/worships God - not Islam as the title of a branch of monotheism/religion. The latter may describe the practices of those who honor/believe in/worship God that way - but there is a difference between Islam/submission as an action and Islam as the title of a religious group.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

zzerous incorrectly states:

Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.

Rebecca correctly responds:

My understanding of this has always been Islam meaning submission and not as the name of an organized religion.

You are missing what I am saying. I am dealing with the semantics of the word Islam as used in the Qur'an, where it means "submission", defining how one honors/believes in/worships God - not Islam as the title of a branch of monotheism/religion. The latter may describe the practices of those who honor/believe in/worship God that way - but there is a difference between Islam/submission as an action and Islam as the title of a religious group.

Szsz observes that it's nice to see someone who knows the deen.

The Quran refers to Islam as submission to God's Will, not as an organized religion. For example:

3.85 If anyone desires a religion other than submission to God, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

It is clear that when someone says that the Book refers to an organized religion, one is repeating :canned answers". Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf addresses this distorted translation and interpretation of the concept in his book "What’s Right With Islam", and I will return to provide a proper reference soon, insha’allah.

I don't know much about zzerous, so I will leave her out of the following assessment.

A serious problem that we as Muslims have, and is often demonstrated here by Layla, is the "dumbing down" of religious education into a systematic, one size fits all set of answers for everything. These answers lack the nuance and the beauty of Islam, and, instead, offer a stilted and overly dramatic rendering of the faith as stagnant and narrowly focused on a simplistic "them and us" mentality. One could say that it offers brain damage. And the sad thing about this brain damage is that those who have it are so adamant that others either share it or be called out of Islam.

Layla mocks my age, knowledge and training; I may not be 500 years old, but I have been blessed to have been raised "old school" in the deen long before intellectually laziness and political agendas became fashionable to pass off as Islam, and for that, I am immensely grateful.

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The people of the book do not accept that Allah is the same God and they do not submit to His will... if they did they would be muslim

No kidding, ####### Tracy. If they were Muslims, there would be no need for Allah to single them out for a marriage allowance and to mention that there will be those among them who will enter heaven.

BTW, have you ever considered that the reason why Christians and Jews are singled out in 5:5, 2:62, 5:69, 22:17 and other ayat so that Muslims wouldn't confuse them with those referred to in 2:221 and 60:10 and need to create an unholy abrogation indicating that He "changed His mind" and didn't really know what He was doing before 5:5 was revealed?

Think about it . . .

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Karen_L 1]

[b]Yes there is ONLY ONE GOD "ALLAH" and he says the only reliogion I accept is ISLAM. I have explained to you what these words mean. Isalm does not deny that Chruistian and Jew are AHL KETAB, they deny ISALM as areligion and Muhammed and a prophet and any one who does that can be called KAFER based on the defintion I provided above.[/b]

My understanding of this has always been Islam meaning submission and not as the name of an organized religion.

How can one submit to Allah and deny His speech and messenger at the same time?

The people of the book do not accept that Allah is the same God and they do not submit to His will... if they did they would be muslim

You are missing what I am saying. I am dealing with the semantics of the word Islam as used in the Qur'an, where it means "submission", defining how one honors/believes in/worships God - not Islam as the title of a branch of monotheism/religion. The latter may describe the practices of those who honor/believe in/worship God that way - but there is a difference between Islam/submission as an action and Islam as the title of a religious group.

Interesting argument, something I also thought about in the past; perhaps people are urged to submit to the will of God -- i.e. to find God, instead of remaining faithless? I guess it depends upon whether a person believes there can be numerous acceptable ways to experience/understand God (i.e. numerous ways that are pleasing to God) or that there can be just one way to do so and every other way is unacceptable/offensive to God. In any event, studying the actual physical language of a given text can have very interesting implications for the text's meaning.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I have very little time, as I have a pressing appointment this morning, so, I will post a smaller excerpt from Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf's book than I would prefer, but it will get the point across. From Chapter Four, titled "Where the Devil Got in the Details", he states:

When we interpret Quranic occurrences of the word islam to mean "a religious system" instead of "a personal act," the meaning can become highly sectarian and explosive. Quran 3:85 reads: Whomever seeks other than self-surrender as religion, it shall never be accepted from him." If what is meant here is that God will not accept an act of religion that is done without submission to God, any pious Jew or Christian would agree. But, if interpreted, as many erroneously do today, "Whomever seeks anything other than the religious system of Islam, it shall never be accepted from him." the verse has sectarian implications that contradict the unambiguous meaning of Quranic verses such as 2:62 and 5:69: "Surely those who believe, the Jews, the Christians and the Sabians, whomever believes in God and the Last Day, and does good, they have their reward with God; they shall not fear, nor shall they grieve." Defining islam as a religious system rather than a universal act of submission is dangerous and has fed Islamic triumphalism and fueled modern Islamic militancy and sectarian violence.- What's Right with Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West , by Iman Feisal Abdul Rauf; page 114, hardcover edition, 2004.

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Interesting argument, something I also thought about in the past; perhaps people are urged to submit to the will of God -- i.e. to find God, instead of remaining faithless? I guess it depends upon whether a person believes there can be numerous acceptable ways to experience/understand God (i.e. numerous ways that are pleasing to God) or that there can be just one way to do so and every other way is unacceptable/offensive to God. In any event, studying the actual physical language of a given text can have very interesting implications for the text's meaning.

I know I've posted this more than once.

In the Quran, Allah makes it clear that not only is it part of His Divine Design that there be more than one way to believe, a diversity of thought, He himself has made some to believe differently and to stray. He says it is part of a test for humanity to see how we use His guidance to create order and peace even as we differ. The ayat below are but four examples of where Allah instructs that it is His Will and Plan that has brought about the differences in belief, and that it is not up to us to compel others to believe as we do, or to expect that diversity of belief is something we can remedy.

Allah says that He has created us as diverse entities, not so that we can war, but so we can learn to understand each other:

49.13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

He says that He has sent to each of us a path, but that He has made us of a single mind so that we can interact and find a way to move toward Him in virtue:

5.48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute

He tells us that we cannot make all into the same mind, for it is His Intent that we have differences among ourselves.

10:99-100 If it had been your Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt or obscurity on those who will not understand.

The path to God will not be found by all, but it wil be our acts that will be judged, and in none of these ayat, has He concerned Himself with our labels:

16. 93 If God so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.

The interesting thing about this is that God doesn't say that there will not be Muslims among the misguided or the ones who stray, so one cannot assume that the only ones who are misguided or straying are those who don't call themselves Muslim. If labels were so cut and dried as to who pleases Him and who does not, Judgment Day would be a snore. But He says He will decide between us ALL, not just those who do not call themselves "Muslim" or adhere to a religious system called "Islam".

To say that there is a clear and determinant line between Muslims and non-Muslims is to place oneself as the Judge, and to declare that one knows who does or does not please God. But God tells us directly that He will judge between acts, and not by title, so it is not correct to say that we know for sure that those who label themselves Muslims are His Chosen people and all others who do not are lost.

The challenge for all of us is to accept His Will that we are not all going to apply the same labels or follow the same path to Him. We must find a way to Him through our righteous dealings with others, applying free will, respect, and mediation, even as we disagree. I will admit that my own personal challenge is to be kind in my dealings with Muslims who envision Islam as monolethic, hostile, forboding and separatist, and Muslims as superior to all other beings, for I am so offended by the deen being spoken of in such dark terms, but that is my battle and my burden. I am trying.

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm just making a point that it's not fun when someone starts passing judgement and calling you names in public because you don't agree with them...

Then you should avoid doing so, Layla. Don't act as if you are only a victim. When you advertise your sins and advise others to follow them, you can and should be judged for that. When you slander the deen and call people out of Islam and name them Satan and pagan for disagreeing with you, then your plea for tolerance is hypocritical, not moral.

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Veiled Princess 1]

I'm just making a point that it's not fun when someone starts passing judgement and calling you names in public because you don't agree with them...

Then you should avoid doing so, Layla. Don't act as if you are only a victim. When you advertise your sins and advise others to follow them, you can and should be judged for that. When you slander the deen and call people out of Islam and name them Satan and pagan for disagreeing with you, then your plea for tolerance is hypocritical, not moral.

I haven't broadcasted any sins. I have stated my belief that my marriage is halal, you disagree... the scholars I trust say the opposite of your opinion... you on the other hand do broadcast your sins AND advise others to follow them and swear they are halal.... I haven't advised anyone here to not register their marriage with the govt....I have agreed that it's preferable... I just stated my opinion (and the opinion of all the scholars who have been quoted on this board) that it's not haraam if you don't do it.

You like getting nasty with non muslim men who can't legally (in Islam) be your husband no matter if you register on the moon? That's your business.

BTW, I don't mock your age... I mock the fact that you think that makes you better than any other muslim on this forum. It's called pride and arrogance... satan was kicked out of heaven and cursed for such bad sins...

FYI, if you didn't call my name in every darn comment you post I wouldn't call you anything... heck, I wouldn't acknowledge your exsitance... but that's a moot point because you do and will continue to call my name in every darn thing you post here because you're a vile old woman with nothing better to do

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I haven't broadcasted any sins. I have stated my belief that my marriage is halal, you disagree... the scholars I trust say the opposite of your opinion...

It is in your interest to follow those who agree with you, but they are incorrect, and that is not my opinion, it is God's. We are to obey the law of the land unless it conflicts with God's law, and registering your marriage doesn't conflict with God's law. If everyone could run around proclaiming themselves to be married, without protection, without mediation, without a means of divorce, then run back to the US to file a K1, then there is nothing but chaos in the ummah: that is unIslamic. And a Muslim doing this in a Muslim country where the ulama have decided this is the way is even more of a sin.

you on the other hand do broadcast your sins AND advise others to follow them and swear they are halal....

You say I have sinned because you claim that Allah lost His mind and had to abrogate an order not to marry mushrikeen and kuffar. That is a weak and lame position, not even the legitimate scholars take. I haven't advised anyone to do as I did, but I know there is nothing in sharia against it. When we married, I had an imam administer the rights, got it made legal so that I was covered by the laws of the land, and didn't pretend to be married while filing a K1, as you have done.

I haven't advised anyone here to not register their marriage with the govt....I have agreed that it's preferable... I just stated my opinion (and the opinion of all the scholars who have been quoted on this board) that it's not haraam if you don't do it.

You have advocated that your position is one that, if followed, is fine. Your position is an opinion, mine is not. As has been said before, you can have your own opinions, but not your own facts. That is the difference between us. And since you limit your trusted scholars to your sectarian views, they do not comport to Islam, just Salafiism.

You like getting nasty with non muslim men who can't legally (in Islam) be your husband no matter if you register on the moon? That's your business.

You slept with a man not your husband in any way, shape or form, because he owes you NOTHING by law, then came here to justify it. Your argument that somehow Muslim men can marry women who would corrupt a Muslim woman is laughable and more scholars are challenging it because it has no basis in history, fact or theology. But a woman who fornicated for a paper and has stated that she would sell her 12 year to the highest bidder just because he's Muslim has no moral ground upon which to claim superiority.

BTW, I don't mock your age... I mock the fact that you think that makes you better than any other muslim on this forum. It's called pride and arrogance... satan was kicked out of heaven and cursed for such bad sins...

Your pride and arrogance is in how you don't/can't see how ignorant you sound. If pointing that out makes me seem prideful and arrogant, it is a small price to pay.

FYI, if you didn't call my name in every darn comment you post I wouldn't call you anything... heck, I wouldn't acknowledge your exsitance... but that's a moot point because you do and will continue to call my name in every darn thing you post here because you're a vile old woman with nothing better to do

No one invited you to this thread, but every time you come and give me more ammunition to demonstrate your incompetence as a Muslim.

Edited September 22, 2006 by szsz

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

@Veiled Princess, see your PM please.

[Veiled Princess 1]

No one invited you to this thread, but every time you come and give me more ammunition to demonstrate your incompetence as a Muslim.

I don't have to be invited anywhere, it's a public board and you're not the owner... as long as you use me as a subject to your asinine rants I am free to come and comment. Your opinions are nothing more than that... opinions. You're full of yourself and it's pathetic. You don't back up any of the ####### you spew with any proof or any scholarly opinions. You call things haraam with no proof and no scholar to back you up then declare your sins halal because you want them to be... again with no proof.

Like I said... keep my name off your lips and fingertips and we don't have a problem here... but I'm going to rebuke you everytime you call my name on this board!

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

[sarah and hicham 3]

I'm thinking repeat of last Friday night?

[Ban Hammer 13,343]

I'm thinking repeat of last Friday night?

unlikely, as szsz isn't usually on very late at night that i've noticed. stay tuned on saturday thought